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I know we have not exactly had an Archetype blog or something but while posting I noticed that some of the old class (and prestige class) concepts really would work well for class agnostic archetypes.
Let me get a few examples:
Gunslinger: Firearm Prophiciency and Grit options as additional class feats. So you could do a Ranger or Rogue Sniper, a Gunslinging frontline Fighter or a cleric with a gun and blessed bullets.
Swashbuckler: More options mith light weapons. Would work for dex-based fighters, rogues, followers of Cayden Cailean and many more.
Arcane Archer: Got Magic skills and bow prophiciency? Upgrade it!
Brawler: Unarmed options for everyone!
Arcanist: Vary your vancian casting and get the exploits as additional options for your wizard - alternately make your sorcerer more flexible. (The start feat would probably be to alter the casting of your character to give you either more flexibility or more options in the long run)
Master Spy: Why lose class related stuff? It is much easier to pretend something if you got all options.
Dragon Disciple: Well it would be more like a Dragon Scion Archetype but I think there could be some pretty neat builds and option.
Hellknight: I am sure this one would be a class-agnostic archetype either way
And I am sure this works with a LOT of archetypes that some classes now have, heck -> some of the archetypes we got now are basically that with a bit configuration for the individual class
Yes, it totally makes sense - I mean, they add new features to every class which got the right prerequisities, but I guess many people would not take them because they would loose some of their core class stuff, this way one could have both
I would love for Prestige Classes to function along the line of Starfinder Archetypes. I like the broad ability for multiple classes to fit within a theme. However, they are very limiting for how much you can really change things up for an individual class. Preferably Prestige Classes would be for any class that qualifies and archetypes are class specific. I could go either way with them stacking.
Hellknight: I am sure this one would be a class-agnostic archetype either way
I dont mind generic things like "pirate, shadow dancer, gunslinger" becoming agnostic archetypes. Though, I'd prefer if things like Hellknights, Red Mantiss asassins, and linon's blades, stayed prestige classes. Essentially, anything heavily flavored in setting material gets the PRC treatment. Anything generic gets the archetype route.
I dont mind generic things like "pirate, shadow dancer, gunslinger" becoming agnostic archetypes. Though, I'd prefer if things like Hellknights, Red Mantiss asassins, and linon's blades, stayed prestige classes. Essentially, anything heavily flavored in setting material gets the PRC treatment. Anything generic gets the archetype route.
Hellknight: I am sure this one would be a class-agnostic archetype either way
I will note that Hellknights in Starfinder use the generic universal archetype "Starknight". Paizo might do something similar in PF2.
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I hope not SF archetypes are not something to emulate imo.
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I would like something done with Mystic Theurge...anything really.
I hope not SF archetypes are not something to emulate imo.
I mean SF archetypes may have been emulating PF2 archetypes all along depending on the timings of the development cycle. We will have to see.
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You may be right, but god I hope you are wrong.
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They have more data to rely on and a blank (more flexible) slate to present the new archetypes on - I think like this it could be actually pretty good
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There have been some hints/reading between the lines that PF2 archetypes will be packages of additional class feat options, so similar to Starfinder archetypes (although some will have class restrictions) but with the problem of the imbalance of the removed class features that the Starfinder archetypes removed class features of different weights (as in theory, a P2E class feat will be the same weight for every class)
This is pretty much one of the reasons I came to the conclusion about how some classes could be archetypes
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PF2 Archetypes also seem to be modular, in that they are a new list of abilities you can take, not a selection you must take all of at specific levels.
Also, for the record, there are several indications that Class-Specific Archetypes fiddling around with the stuff specific to that Class may well also be a thing on top of the new Class Agnostic ones.
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IMO PF2 Would greatly benefit if ALL Archetypes are Class Agnostic and Prestige Classes in general are integrated into the Archetype System.
It makes leveling up simpler, it prevents worsening of MAD Ability Scores for some classes, eliminates the need for Feat Taxes (Instead they should PROVIDE the Feats at specific levels which a PC would have been required to take anyhow), and allows much more freedom for natural character development and leveling up more gracefully.
Ex : A Fighter, A Cleric, A Rogue, and A Bard all take the "Master Spy" Archetype.
Level 1 Skill Feat is Replaced with : Art of Deception "Bluff, Disguise, & Sense Motive Skills are Trained Skills. Every 4 Levels after 1st Level the Proficiency Raises 1 level.
Level 2 Skill Feat is Replaced with : Sneak Attack : Extra Damage to Flat Foot/Flanked Foe. +1d6 + 1d6 Per every 4 Class Levels with the Master Spy
Archetype
IMO PF2 Would greatly benefit if ALL Archetypes are Class Agnostic and Prestige Classes in general are integrated into the Archetype System.
It makes leveling up simpler, it prevents worsening of MAD Ability Scores for some classes, eliminates the need for Feat Taxes (Instead they should PROVIDE the Feats at specific levels which a PC would have been required to take anyhow), and allows much more freedom for natural character development and leveling up more gracefully.
Then there are mages, which need magic archetypes others can't take. There's also probably some that would only really fit martials, like stuff based around heavy armor.
I expect most archetypes to be class-agonistic though, but it would be bad to limit yourself to only these.
Also, it's been confirmed that you get to choose if you want the archetype ability for any given feat. You could keep your old one if you wanted. Though I presume not all archetypes will be like ths in the end... Some have iconic powers/restrictions that should be enforced.
IMO PF2 Would greatly benefit if ALL Archetypes are Class Agnostic and Prestige Classes in general are integrated into the Archetype System.
It makes leveling up simpler, it prevents worsening of MAD Ability Scores for some classes, eliminates the need for Feat Taxes (Instead they should PROVIDE the Feats at specific levels which a PC would have been required to take anyhow), and allows much more freedom for natural character development and leveling up more gracefully.
Ex : A Fighter, A Cleric, A Rogue, and A Bard all take the "Master Spy" Archetype.
Level 1 Skill Feat is Replaced with : Art of Deception "Bluff, Disguise, & Sense Motive Skills are Trained Skills. Every 4 Levels after 1st Level the Proficiency Raises 1 level.
Level 2 Skill Feat is Replaced with : Sneak Attack : Extra Damage to Flat Foot/Flanked Foe. +1d6 + 1d6 Per every 4 Class Levels with the Master Spy
Archetype
So a classless system? Wait, thats not quite right, it would be PF2 wizard edition. Everyone starts with wizard for spells and just cherry picks away all the best class features via agnostic archetype.
IMO PF2 Would greatly benefit if ALL Archetypes are Class Agnostic and Prestige Classes in general are integrated into the Archetype System.
It makes leveling up simpler, it prevents worsening of MAD Ability Scores for some classes, eliminates the need for Feat Taxes (Instead they should PROVIDE the Feats at specific levels which a PC would have been required to take anyhow), and allows much more freedom for natural character development and leveling up more gracefully.
Ex : A Fighter, A Cleric, A Rogue, and A Bard all take the "Master Spy" Archetype.
Level 1 Skill Feat is Replaced with : Art of Deception "Bluff, Disguise, & Sense Motive Skills are Trained Skills. Every 4 Levels after 1st Level the Proficiency Raises 1 level.
Level 2 Skill Feat is Replaced with : Sneak Attack : Extra Damage to Flat Foot/Flanked Foe. +1d6 + 1d6 Per every 4 Class Levels with the Master Spy
Archetype
That...doesn't sound compelling at all. For Class free rather go to Mutants and Masterminds or something.
And There should be class specific archetypes as well as class agnostic and...archetype specific
There are archetypes that only makes sense for, lets say rogues.
But there could as well be archetypes for all types of scoundrels (the master spy for example or the assassin)
And of course archetypes specificly for physical combatants as well as casters.
I like their style of archetypes, and I'm glad we're at least getting them for the playtest. I do hope we'll also eventually get PF1-style archetypes that trade out features. It's cool to have them be rarer- after all, we're probably consolidating the "you are a pirate" archetypes, the "here, have a familiar" archetypes, and so on. Perhaps even call them alternate classes?
I loved Zen Archer and Qinggong Monk, I was kind of glad that the last one was already baked in into the UC monk (and I modified the Zen Archer Monk to make it UC Monk compatible)
You are right that many archetypes only make sense for some classes.
The starfinder Archetypes are really bad in many cases, but that is only partially through the skills the archetype gets but more through what the archetype looses (imo usually too much)