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So here’s the predicament. A cavalier’s challenge requires a swift action to assign, and both of the fundamental abilities in the Order of the Flame require Immediate actions, which hinders the entire concept in a few ways.
1st level, looking for that perfect setup against multiple squishy targets, you unfortunately don’t get to act in the surprise round. Unabashed, you start your turn with an excellent charge lane and challenge your opponent. A hit, a one-shot (which is the entire point of charging), and guess what? Your Glorious Challenge, which requires an Immediate action, can’t continue because there’s no more swift actions to spend. Not so glorious.
- A way around this is to challenge a different target than the one you plan to charge first turn. Congrats, you take an AC penalty for absolutely no bonus whatsoever. Then, once the ensuing melee has started, good luck trying to charge your Challenged target without a turn to reposition.
But what if you spend your traits and skill points and (Senestra forbid), ability points to ensure a good Perception roll? Well your prayers are answered, you can challenge in the surprise round and start the chain of death. Sound expensive? It is.
2nd level, your first Flame ability! Even if you don’t act in the surprise round, you get to spend an Immediate action and position yourself for a perfect charge (50% of the time). Just one hold up though- don’t even think about challenging anyone because that immediate action you just used means that on round 1 of combat, you can’t take any swift actions. So what? Charge away. Round 2 comes along and you feel great. You issue that challenge SO hard. Woth the added damage you one shot that squishy and—— that’s it. Same issue as above.
Besides being a rant- how exactly is this order supposed to even Function?
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Once you've picked your challenge, for whatever unknown reason, the design for it seems to be that you're supposed to take more than one turn to drop that target, so that you can use your Glorious Challenge on the second turn.
Pathfinder is not written with the assumption that opponents will be one-shot.
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Pathfinder is not written with the assumption that opponents will be one-shot.
Once you've picked your challenge, for whatever unknown reason, the design for it seems to be that you're supposed to take more than one turn to drop that target, so that you can use your Glorious Challenge on the second turn.
If a charging cavalier isn't 1 shotting their opponent they're doing it wrong
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You can take a Swift Action on Surprise Rounds; so long as you can act. You're allowed Free Actions, and Swift Actions state that you may take a Swift Action if you are capable of taking a Free Action.
You can take a swift action anytime you would normally be allowed to take a free action.
It's also referenced under Restricted Activity.
Restricted Activity: In some situations, you may be unable to take a full round's worth of actions. In such cases, you are restricted to taking only a single standard action or a single move action (plus free and swift actions as normal). You can't take a full-round action (though you can start or complete a full-round action by using a standard action; see below).
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Cavall none of those say you can't take a swift action in a surprise round. Example one and three kind of imply it. But most likely they are telling you what you can do. For example the bounty hunter can't take a full round action but can take the three actions listed. Mantis gets to take any combination of actions equaling a full round action as does Aldinach's.
The Surprise Round
If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.
You can take a swift action anytime you would normally be allowed to take a free action.
Archetypes don't trump the core rulebook for general rules.
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Yuri, you can’t take an immediate on your turn if you have already used a swift action. What you’re talking about is when you take an immediate action on someone else’s iniative, it then counts as your swift for the upcoming turn. Say, you don’t one shot something and stick around, and it provokes you and then dies, you could use an immediate action on their initiative. On your own turn though, that isn’t possible
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"As an immediate action after reducing the target of his challenge to 0 hit points or fewer, the cavalier can elect to issue a glorious challenge to an opponent within 15 feet."
If you killed your target, you could wait until your turn ends and then say, "as an immediate action I issue a glorious challenge". Technically, this is 'after' you reduced your target to 0HP. Whether that would work or not depends on your GM.
If a charging cavalier isn't 1 shotting their opponent they're doing it wrongPathfinder is not written with the assumption that opponents will be one-shot.
Once you've picked your challenge, for whatever unknown reason, the design for it seems to be that you're supposed to take more than one turn to drop that target, so that you can use your Glorious Challenge on the second turn.
That does not change my assertion.
Players are building cavaliers to do something the game is not designed to accommodate.
"As an immediate action after reducing the target of his challenge to 0 hit points or fewer, the cavalier can elect to issue a glorious challenge to an opponent within 15 feet."
If you killed your target, you could wait until your turn ends and then say, "as an immediate action I issue a glorious challenge". Technically, this is 'after' you reduced your target to 0HP. Whether that would work or not depends on your GM.
So if I kill an opponent today, with my challenge on them, then tomorrow when I get into a combat, as an immediate action, I can challenge a new opponent within 15' since tomorrow is AFTER I reduced todays challenge target to 0 or less?
There is a strongly implied "at the exact moment you reduce the target to 0". Not sometime later during your turn, or sometime after your turn, and not tomorrow. The resolution of the attack that took the target to <= 0 is the time frame to determine whether to use the immediate action or not.
Personally; after the first round of attacks I would use divination to find/track their base of operations and hit them before they could rest.
Due to spell duration constraints, they must attack from nearby.
Given nearly all their spells were used in the initial assault, the wizards will have little to nothing left to defend themselves with.
Personally; after the first round of attacks I would use divination to find/track their base of operations and hit them before they could rest.
Due to spell duration constraints, they must attack from nearby.
Given nearly all their spells were used in the initial assault, the wizards will have little to nothing left to defend themselves with.
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If you killed your target, you could wait until your turn ends and then say, "as an immediate action I issue a glorious challenge". Technically, this is 'after' you reduced your target to 0HP.There is a strongly implied "at the exact moment you reduce the target to 0". Not sometime later during your turn, or sometime after your turn, and not tomorrow. The resolution of the attack that took the target to <= 0 is the time frame to determine whether to use the immediate action or not.
By strict RAW, this isn't true. If it said, "when you reduce your target to 0HP" that would imply instant. Instead they say "after", which means that "at the exact moment" is forbidden.
If the GM is trying to play fair rather than by RAW, "I kill him and then I end my turn and immediately take an immediate action to issue a glorious challenge" is pretty much instant - nothing has happened in-between - and allows the player to use a fun class feature.