Diplomacy vs arch enemies, what to do here?

[GM Chyro]

Hello,

I find myself in doubt on a situation.
The situation is PFS, as such interaction DC for diplomacy stands at a set value.

The target: hellknights.
The one making the diplomacy roll: a paladin of Milani....

Their gods are polar oppossites. Law & uprisings, LE & CG. Moreover wiki says (at least on Milani's page) that Asmodeus is Milani's arch-enemy.

Now the pally (having openly declared Milani to be his goddess) rolls a solid 28, higher than the required DC. So, will the hellknights have nothing of it and outright glare at him, or will they be influenced by diplomacy check?

And if the latter, what would be the appropriate penalties?

(It's like a rebel fighter (declaring he's with the resistance) wanting to chat with a stormtrooper) ^^

Personally i think they would refuse to talk to him.

[Ascalaphus]

1) Milani is a Chaotic Good deity, so she doesn't have paladins. Is your player playing a "paladin" or a real paladin class?

2) Diplomacy DCs do not depend on who's asking something directly - they depend on the listener's attitude about the person asking. So if a particular Hellknight liked a particular follower of Milani, the DC would be low; but it's not so likely that the Hellknight would have this positive attitude in the first place.

Note that going by the book, Diplomacy is a two-step process: influence someone's attitude, and then make a second roll to make requests. But PFS often folds those two things into a single check with a set DC.

If you think that an NPC's attitude towards the PCs would be very different than the baseline that the scenario writer expected for a default party, you could apply the higher or lower DC for that different base attitude. Be cautious with this though; the baseline PC party isn't exactly a collection of ideal sons-in-law so the PCs would have to do something quite extraordinary to earn a higher or lower difficulty. But yeah, flaunting Milani in front of Hellknights isn't going to make them popular.

3) Hellknights are not necessarily followers of Asmodeus (although it's common), their primary focus is The Law (pronounce with a heavy Judge Dredd accent). That still puts them at odds with Milani, but also means that they won't let feelings about the PC blind them to their own duties. So it's not "attack on sight" or "refuse to listen"; they'd be skeptical but if the PC really had good arguments (and a good Diplomacy check) they might still be persuaded.

[GM Chyro]

Well to your 1st question, yes, he plays a paladin class.

I don't know degrees of extremities of all orders, but these hellknights are the purging kind, The Scourge. From what i read, quite apt in putting down unlawful elements.

[axemaiden]

The DC is set at the level indicated by the NPC's starting attitude. I think you could reasonably say the NPC's attitude will be lower talking to an ideological enemy (sometimes that's in the scenario anyway). A check of 28 is probably going to succeed anyway.

[GM Chyro]

Potentially.

Aside from starting attitude, (which seems quite reasonable, it was something i was considering as well) would there be other modifiers?

[Philippe Lam]

- In a home game Milani could be reasonably taken, but not in an Organized Play. A GM could be entitled to refuse the player at the table until class change or deity change as the latter is expected to not ignore that. Given it's a class with divine powers, enforcing a 8 PP-sized atonement would hardly be blamed as harsh (and I don't add the alignment infraction, even with good intent).

- For the diplomacy checks, the Hellknight has a fair chance to recognize that kind of aura. Unfair as it is, for lots of them CG will be included in the same bag as the CEs and CNs. "Slap in the face." Talking could still succeed but much more difficult.

The attitude would probably be set up as hostile by default, so 25. Add next some charisma bonuses. In the case the opposite number is already hostile, I'd throw a situational +5 to the DC of the check, same thing with a set DC from a scenario's text.

The player also has to be careful on how to RP this, bonuses or penalties could be given for that too.

axemaiden wrote:

A check of 28 is probably going to succeed anyway.

So no it's not always probable success. Now most of the times as long the player doesn't chain errors like pearls, there won't be that many penalties.

[BigNorseWolf]

This is important, what are they trying to get the hellknights to do?

Anything worse than say a -2 penalty to the roll takes some pretty extreme circumstances in pfs. Autofailing people either needs to be a weird corner case or written into the scenario.

Its not like they're trying to instantly convert the hellknights to shelyn's fingerpainting and free love commune , just get a favor out of them.

[GM Chyro]

They are at a social event, and tasked to influence attandees, leave a good impression on the society's behalf.

Though currently his greetings are no further then 'hello, nice to meet you'.

[BigNorseWolf]

GM Chyro wrote:

They are at a social event, and tasked to influence attandees, leave a good impression on the society's behalf.

Though currently his greetings are no further then 'hello, nice to meet you'.

Thats the sort of diplomacy check where DM fiat (which is otherwise legitimately built into diplomacy) shouldn't be kicking in yet. I mean, he might be a milani worshiping subversive but that doesn't mean he can't tell a good story or be fun to hang out with.

[Wei Ji the Learner]

Who knows, perhaps they can find some *gasp* Common Ground??!

[Bazhell Banhackson]

Wei Ji the Learner wrote:

Who knows, perhaps they can find some *gasp* Common Ground??!

Rovagug really is a jerk, man. I don't know about that whole law thing, but, let me tell you, I would rather argue the validity of a given law than watch the world burn.

On another subject, have you ever been to the Worldwound? I was there, and man, that place is terrible...

[GM Chyro]

I played Siege of the Diamond city at a con...that was close enough. :)

Seeing districts shift between positive and negative is nerve wrecking.

[Andrietta Ebonfeather]

Bazhell Banhackson wrote:

Wei Ji the Learner wrote:

Who knows, perhaps they can find some *gasp* Common Ground??!

Rovagug really is a jerk, man. I don't know about that whole law thing, but, let me tell you, I would rather argue the validity of a given law than watch the world burn.

On another subject, have you ever been to the Worldwound? I was there, and man, that place is terrible...

"That young whippersnapper hasn't been, but I've been thrice. Kids over there... eesh... they treat me like I'm some sort of popular performer or something and it's really off-putting.

Grandmother knows puttin' on airs an' lordin' it over folks is the kinda thing that gets good folks dead and dead folks wanderin' around.

It's good t' reach out and talk t' folks... y'never know what you might learn from someone while helpin' 'em back to being a decent sort."

[Belafon]

GM Chyro wrote:

Well to your 1st question, yes, he plays a paladin class.

This got mentioned earlier, but the player needs to change his deity or change his class immediately. A paladin of Milani is not a legal character in PFS.

• Paladins must be Lawful Good.
  
• Regardless of class, each character must have an alignment within one step of her deity’s alignment. (Guide v9.1 page 26).
  
• Milani is Chaotic Good (two steps from Lawful Good).

[BigNorseWolf]

Kevin Willis wrote:

GM Chyro wrote:

Well to your 1st question, yes, he plays a paladin class.

This got mentioned earlier, but the player needs to change his deity or change his class immediately. A paladin of Milani is not a legal character in PFS.

• Paladins must be Lawful Good.
  
• Regardless of class, each character must have an alignment within one step of her deity’s alignment. (Guide v9.1 page 26).
  
• Milani is Chaotic Good (two steps from Lawful Good).

I could swear I've seen milani listed as NG , which i thought was odd given her portfolio *digging*

[Wei Ji the Learner]

Could someone 'follow' Milani while 'getting their juice' from a NG deity? ie, there's another deity providing some oomph who agrees with Milani but who is NG?

[Belafon]

Wei Ji the Learner wrote:

Could someone 'follow' Milani while 'getting their juice' from a NG deity? ie, there's another deity providing some oomph who agrees with Milani but who is NG?

Let's not take this too far away from the original post (which this line of discussion could really do).

There are plenty of other threads that discuss this very topic. With a great deal of debate about nuance and degree of flavor. (The un-nuanced answer is that the paladin must be dedicated to a deity within one step of LG. )

[FLite]

GMs have very broad discretion with regard to situational modifiers, typically +2 to-2 but up to +4 to -4 in extreme cases.

[Tim Schneider 908]

I'm going to leave aside the "paladin" aspect and assume we have a chaotic good character aligned to their god. If the character is actually lawful (which isn't legal in PFS with a CG deity as others have stated) then I don't see any conflict at all.

I'd judge it based on how it was declared. If it was declared in a "Milani is superior foolish hell knights!" sense I'd call him beyond diplomacy rolls at that stage.

If they're simply not hiding it I'd probably only apply penalties if it came up. If the player didn't make it relevant I might roleplay at it slightly, have the hellknight make a slight jab (Maybe something along the lines of expecting trouble from the PC because they know his type think they're above the rules). Depending on how smoothly the player replies I'd go anywhere in the +2/-2 range (Plus if they play it down or take it in good humor, negative if they jab back, if they succeed with the negative they found a hell knight who appreciates a bit of backbone).

[Philippe Lam]

If it was the clergy of Abadar, as a GM I would shrug but that happens. There's a need for every alignement in a society. But while the general alignment of the organization is the same, Hellknights have some goals which are contrary to those of Milani.

I would be lax if the player takes steps to not display the symbol, even if they speak quite tactlessly. If they keep it on display even randomly then Hellknights would start with more misgivings due to the current fight of the Milani clergy against Abrogail Thrune II, and the organization deeming her the ("far") lesser of the two evils.

A -2 penalty sounds fair even if I think it should generally be ruled harsher.