There are no prosthetic hands or feet?


Rules Questions


...or rather, there are no cheap replacements for lost hands or feet without replacing the entire limb. This was somewhat addressed in the Hideaway Limb thread, but I think it merits its own discussion.

My SFS character, Zoggy Grav, tripped on a Hellknight and accidentally got his right hand incinerated, but, to my dismay, looking at the section on prosthetic hands, you can only buy a basic or storage prosthetic as a "Arm AND Hand" or "Leg AND Foot" augmentation. You can't just replace a hand or just replace a foot.

What this does is make it so that, if poor Zoggy wants to get his claw back, he has to go to the doctor and get his whole arm chopped off so he can get an entire prosthetic arm. He is quite attached to his meat-arm and doesn't want to lose any more of it. So he had a goblin weld a wrench onto his forearm armor for the time being.

Alternatively, he could wait a bunch of levels and spend 71,000 credits on a Polyhand.

So, some questions.

Is this state of affairs intentional? Are hand or foot amputees supposed to be punished by losing their entire limb's worth of augmentation slots? This is not a terribly generous way to handle people with disabilities, if I can say so.

I might consider the whole arm replacement if there were some value to doing so, for example if there was a Quickdraw version of the Storage Limb. Why is there no Quickdraw Storage Limb?

Right now a Prosthetic Limb costs 100 credits, a Hideaway Limb costs 150, and a Storage Limb cots... 1,450 credits. The only mechanical difference between a Hideway Limb and a Storage Limb is that you can also install a Speed Suspension or a Polyhand on a Storage Limb. Is that really worth the extra 1,200 creds you're paying for it?

The Polyhand can replicate a tool. What is the definition of a "tool?" It says that you can replicate tools within an engineering kit; how many of the polyhand's 10 slots do you have to use to make up a full engineering kit? How about a specialty engineering kit that gives bonuses to rolls?

Also, a weapon is a tool. Can the Polyhand replicate a weapon? The text states that it doesn't increase your unarmed damage, but could you make, say, a dagger (the hand can extend for up to 18 inches), and then be considered armed? It is, by definition, an adamantine device, so having an adamantine spike on command, Robocop-style, would be pretty fancy.

I realize that some of my issues may be addressed by the Armory book coming out next, but, if I may suggest some humble solutions for FAQ consideration?

You should be able to buy just a prosthetic hand or just a prosthetic foot. Ash Williams and Luke Skywalker both lost hands and got prosthetics that didn't require losing the rest of their arms. Maybe cut the cost to 50 credits.

Simple, level 1 prosthetics should not use up any augmentation slots. It is basically a cosmetic choice, gameplay-wise. I can imagine that some people with real-life disabilities might appreciate the consideration.

The Storage Limb should cost 250 credits. Maybe 350 credits if you count the ability to play nice with certain other augmentations. You should be able to get a Quickdraw Storage Limb for 3,150 (or 3,250 to play nice) credits.

The Polyhand should use a number of its slots equal to the item level to replicate a full toolkit, so 1 for a basic kit or 4 for a specialty kit.

The Polyhand should be able to replicate a weapon of Light bulk that is 18" or less and doesn't have the Reach keyword or use batteries or ammunition. Let's give the resulting weapon Unwieldy as well, so as to emphasize the fact that the Polyhand wasn't designed to be a weapons system.

Okay, that's it for now. I may think of more, later.


Starfinder Superscriber

I read the prosthetic limbs as being inclusive of parts of a limb and not necessitating the excision/amputation of the entire limb. So, like if you want just the hand or foot, or the elbow/knee down, or the shoulder/hip down, or any other set, it's all the same thing and the same price. It only takes up the slot(s) it takes on the impacted limb.

I do disagree on the prostethics not taking up a augment slot, though. I mean, that's what they're physically doing. If you want a better prosthetic, you have to replace it with the better prosthesis. You can't physically have both.


pithica42 wrote:
I read the prosthetic limbs as being inclusive of parts of a limb and not necessitating the excision/amputation of the entire limb. So, like if you want just the hand or foot, or the elbow/knee down, or the shoulder/hip down, or any other set, it's all the same thing and the same price. It only takes up the slot(s) it takes on the impacted limb.

That's how it should be, but that's not RAW. The Prosthetic entry says that it takes up "Arm and Hand" or "Leg and Foot." If they meant for it to be flexible, it would have been: "Arm and Hand, Leg and Foot, Foot, or Hand." "And" is an inclusive and mandatory term.

Quote:
I do disagree on the prostethics not taking up a augment slot, though. I mean, that's what they're physically doing. If you want a better prosthetic, you have to replace it with the better prosthesis. You can't physically have both.

The choices on "better" prosthetics are pretty limited. And again, I said: "Simple, level 1 prosthetics should not use up any augmentation slots. It is basically a cosmetic choice, gameplay-wise." If we later get Ash's chainsaw hand from Evil Dead 2, then, yeah, that uses up the slot, but the basic prosthetic does NOTHING except give utility back to a disabled character.

Is the intent really to punish amputees with fewer character options? And further, it would actually be easier to install an augmentation in a pure prosthetic; you wouldn't even have to dig around in the meat to make the connections.


Starfinder Superscriber

I agree with you that the RAW says that, I just don't see that as intentional, so I read it as 'we meant for this to be any or all parts of a limb' rather than 'we meant for this to only always be all parts of a limb'.

Quote:
Is the intent really to punish amputees with fewer character options? And further, it would actually be easier to install an augmentation in a pure prosthetic; you wouldn't even have to dig around in the meat to make the connections.

How does it punish them, though (other than maybe, the 100cr, which is pretty cheap to get your arm back)?

The only thing that taking up a slot does is take up the slot, as far as I know. You just can't put anything else in that slot without replacing what's there. Replacing it with something better would include the normal functionality of the prosthetic unless it explicitly says otherwise.


pithica42 wrote:
I agree with you that the RAW says that, I just don't see that as intentional, so I read it as 'we meant for this to be any or all parts of a limb' rather than 'we meant for this to only always be all parts of a limb'.

It is an issue for Starfinder Society characters, who don't have the liberty of going by "oh of course they MEANT for it to be {X}!"

Quote:

How does it punish them, though (other than maybe, the 100cr, which is pretty cheap to get your arm back)?

The only thing that taking up a slot does is take up the slot, as far as I know. You just can't put anything else in that slot without replacing what's there. Replacing it with something better would include the normal functionality of the prosthetic unless it explicitly says otherwise.

There are limb augmentations that aren't prosthetics. Someone with prosthetics can't use any of those unless the item in question says that it can be used with prosthetics, such as Speed Suspension, Climbing Suckers, and Polyhand. While that is currently a majority of the available limb augmentations, I don't think Venom Spur is compatible with a prosthetic, and we have no idea if the inclusive language is going to be included in future augmentation submissions.


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Starfinder Superscriber

You're right about SFS. Sorry, I'm usually the one making the arguments that RAW needs to be fixed on their account. My bad.

Shadow Lodge

An organic replacement limb is 110 credits. (100 for a prosthetic limb, 10% surcharge for organic) A first level adventure gets you 720 credits.

An arm and a leg hardly cost you an arm and a leg. So who cares where they cut.

Parts is parts.


BigNorseWolf wrote:

An organic replacement limb is 110 credits. (100 for a prosthetic limb, 10% surcharge for organic) A first level adventure gets you 720 credits.

An arm and a leg hardly cost you an arm and a leg. So who cares where they cut.

Parts is parts.

An organic replacement still uses an augmentation slot for each slot covered. The issue is why this largely cosmetic choice (popularized in TV and movies) prevents you from using other character options later.


I'm going to go out on a limb (ha!) and suggest that maybe that's just how it works. You lost the functional use of a limb, so you strapped on a replacement. You made a choice of doing that instead of, say, retiring a crippled a character.

That's the benefit you purchased with your credits.


Pantshandshake wrote:

I'm going to go out on a limb (ha!) and suggest that maybe that's just how it works. You lost the functional use of a limb, so you strapped on a replacement. You made a choice of doing that instead of, say, retiring a crippled a character.

That's the benefit you purchased with your credits.

Zoggy isn't crippled; he's handi-capable! Losing his right claw just made his left claw stronger!

But seriously, that isn't a satisfactory answer to me. I've got to hand (ha!) it to Paizo; they've gone out of their way to make people comfortable, no matter their race, gender identity, preference, or disability. For example, you can play a blind or deaf character without penalties except failing vision or hearing-based checks.

I can't imagine that Paizo intended to screw over amputees.


Let me circle back around for a second, real quick, just so we know where we don't agree. I 100% agree with you that the pricing on things seems like it's off by a good margin. I'd also be in favor of some kind of way to restore aug slots to a non-original limb.

But, seriously, what’s the point of going through all the trouble of making a whole set of rules and equipment (including wounding weapons) if everything those rules accomplish can be completely negated with 100 credits and a couple (in-game) hours with a surgeon?

I stick to my original assertion. You lost the use of a thing, you got to buy a new one that’s almost as good for pocket change, instead of dealing with a permanent disability or creating a new character. That’s pretty damn good, and a rather radical departure from most other tabletop games I’ve played.

So I’m still thinking the way it works now is on purpose, and not an oversight.

Shadow Lodge

Dracomicron wrote:


An organic replacement still uses an augmentation slot for each slot covered. The issue is why this largely cosmetic choice (popularized in TV and movies) prevents you from using other character options later.

Your specific question was whether they had to take or charge you for the whole arm or not. Taking the hand or taking the arm would not matter to any prosthetic currently in the game as there's no bicep mounted shoulder cannon yet.

Not spelling out every common sense alteration to the raw does not make any statements about people in the real world. It just means the raw needs a tweak. There is NO need to get on a soapbox and bring real world stuff into it.


Pantshandshake wrote:

Let me circle back around for a second, real quick, just so we know where we don't agree. I 100% agree with you that the pricing on things seems like it's off by a good margin. I'd also be in favor of some kind of way to restore aug slots to a non-original limb.

But, seriously, what’s the point of going through all the trouble of making a whole set of rules and equipment (including wounding weapons) if everything those rules accomplish can be completely negated with 100 credits and a couple (in-game) hours with a surgeon?

I stick to my original assertion. You lost the use of a thing, you got to buy a new one that’s almost as good for pocket change, instead of dealing with a permanent disability or creating a new character. That’s pretty damn good, and a rather radical departure from most other tabletop games I’ve played.

So I’m still thinking the way it works now is on purpose, and not an oversight.

Well, losing limbs is pretty inconvenient in the short term. Depending on where you lose your limb, there's a good chance you'll be that way awhile.

But you do have a point, in a game where high level spells and Regeneration Tables exist with a cost of up to tens of thousands of credits, perhaps there should be some distinction between the real deal and very good copies.

There's still a matter of the pricing and the lack of individual hand or foot replacements... I still don't think that you should have to lose your arm aug slot just because you lost your hand.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Your specific question was whether they had to take or charge you for the whole arm or not. Taking the hand or taking the arm would not matter to any prosthetic currently in the game as there's no bicep mounted shoulder cannon yet.

Keyword: "yet." I'm thinking ahead.

Quote:
Not spelling out every common sense alteration to the raw does not make any statements about people in the real world. It just means the raw needs a tweak. There is NO need to get on a soapbox and bring real world stuff into it.

They have to spell out the common sense alterations to RAW, because that's where Starfinder Society lives.

And I'm not getting on a soapbox; I'm just pointing out what Paizo's stated policy is, and how this, probably unintentionally, doesn't really fit in with it.

Shadow Lodge

Dracomicron wrote:


Keyword: "yet." I'm thinking ahead.

To something that might never be. Its entirely possible if not likely that the slots they have are all they want to do.

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They have to spell out the common sense alterations to RAW, because that's where Starfinder Society lives.

They do not. I know this because they haven't.

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And I'm not getting on a soapbox; I'm just pointing out what Paizo's stated policy is, and how this, probably unintentionally, doesn't really fit in with it.

You are stirring the pot with a chain saw in order to draw attention to a rules minor and obscure interaction that needs a minor tweak (normal prosthetic limbs don't occupy a slot)- because really it only matters if you lose both arms.

To do that, you are bringing in serious real world issues that are absolutely not applicable here. There's no real world analog for getting a cybernetic installed on yourself.


BigNorseWolf wrote:


To something that might never be. Its entirely possible if not likely that the slots they have are all they want to do.

Er, this is Paizo we're talking about. The chances that they're done adding cybernetic augmentations with the core book are approximately 0%.

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Quote:
They have to spell out the common sense alterations to RAW, because that's where Starfinder Society lives.
They do not. I know this because they haven't.

That is a fallacy. "It won't happen because it hasn't happened yet" has zero logical backing. If the requirement for something to happen is that it has happened before, then nothing would ever happen, because there never would have been a Big Bang (as it probably hadn't happened before).

These things take time, and input. I'm providing input.

Quote:
You are stirring the pot with a chain saw in order to draw attention to a rules minor and obscure interaction that needs a minor tweak (normal prosthetic limbs don't occupy a slot)- because really it only matters if you lose both arms.

Pointing out a company's established policy is not "stirring a pot with a chainsaw." Paizo has gone out of its way to be sensitive on this kind of thing in the past.

Also I'm not sure what you're talking about, because you can't wield a longarm or 2 handed melee weapon without both hands, so losing one hand or arm is still a pretty big deal.

Quote:
To do that, you are bringing in serious real world issues that are absolutely not applicable here. There's no real world analog for getting a cybernetic installed on yourself.

There isn't a real world analog to losing cybernetic upgrade slots due to prosthetics, but there is a real world analogue to punishing or inconveniencing people who are already disadvantaged. Because it is off-topic, I'm not going to go into it here (lest I be accused of chainsaw-stirring again), but if you can't think of examples, I suggest that you read some up on some history. Punching down is endemic to human history.

Shadow Lodge

Dracomicron wrote:


Er, this is Paizo we're talking about. The chances that they're done adding cybernetic augmentations with the core book are approximately 0%.

Stop. Read.

You keep seeing things that aren't there and ignoring things that are there that change the meaning of whats being said. In this case

o something that might never be. Its entirely possible if not likely that the slots they have are all they want to do.

Not the augmentations. All the slots. Huge difference.

What you're proposing is a hypothetical bicep slot that a severed arm would be incompatable with but a severed hand would be compatible with. That slot doesn't exist, so there's no point worry about it.

Quote:
That is a fallacy. "It won't happen because it hasn't happened yet" has zero logical backing.

I didn't say that they wouldn't I said that they didn't have to. And thats not remotely a logical fallacy because "I'm going to believe my own eyes over what you're saying" is as far from a logical fallacy as you can get.

I've watched gray areas like this stay in the rules for years. The idea that they HAVE to fill it in is silly when they observably don't.

Quote:
Pointing out a company's established policy is not "stirring a pot with a chainsaw." Paizo has gone out of its way to be sensitive on this kind of thing in the past.

Equating a very minor problem with the results of some rules with real life prejudice against actual people is stirring the pot with a chainsaw.

Quote:
Also I'm not sure what you're talking about, because you can't wield a longarm or 2 handed melee weapon without both hands, so losing one hand or arm is still a pretty big deal.

you pay 110 credits. You get a new arm. The only downside is 110 credits and that by the raw you can't put a cybernetic augmentation on that arm.

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To do that, you are bringing in serious real world issues that are absolutely not applicable here. There's no real world analog for getting a cybernetic installed on yourself.
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. Punching down is endemic to human history.

You are really reading everything BUT whats there.


Oh jeez. :D

Okay, when you said "bicep-mounted cannon" or whatnot, I assumed you meant in the arm slot. Because that's where it would go, should it exist. "Bicep slot?" Who is talking about that? No, I'm talking about losing both the hand slot and the arm slot if you lose just your hand, because the only cheap replacement is a full arm.

RE: Gray areas

"Need to" insofar as "if I want this particular issue addressed, Paizo needs to make a ruling," not "Paizo is perfectly capable of ignoring it." Society play can't operate on house rules or suppositions.

RE: Chainsaws

Hyperbole and extreme examples are frequently used to illustrate a point. You did it yourself by calling this "stirring a pot with a chainsaw" when all I did was point out a company policy and how it might relate to the issue. Glass houses, etc.

RE: Only 110 credits (and two augmentation slots)

I'm not sure what you are saying with "it only matters if you lose both arms." Both arms would be 220 credits (and four augmentation slots). What is the "it matters" that are you getting at?

Honestly I think you're reading more into my posts than I'm reading into the "punching down" issue. This isn't a major issue with gameplay, nor is it a huge social justice issue, but there are elements that I'd like to get clarified on both counts. Not everything has to be a huge deal. Do we only post on the forum if something is an important problem?


Thursty answered my basic question over in Organized Play.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2v5lu?Prosthetics-Can-I-replace-just-a-hand-or- a-foot#3

He officially clarified that you can buy a hand or a foot prosthetic for 100 credits and don't need the whole limb amputated.

That's good enough for me!

Paizo Employee Starfinder Design Lead

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Yeah, Thursty and I had a formal conversation about this, and that's the correct official answer.


Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
Yeah, Thursty and I had a formal conversation about this, and that's the correct official answer.

Sounds like a very serious and formal conversation, indeed.

Thanks, Owen! Zoggy can resume liberal application of Hammer Fist with either claw now!


Dracomicron wrote:

Thursty answered my basic question over in Organized Play.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2v5lu?Prosthetics-Can-I-replace-just-a-hand-or- a-foot#3

He officially clarified that you can buy a hand or a foot prosthetic for 100 credits and don't need the whole limb amputated.

That's good enough for me!

Was there any answer for if that took an augment slot?


Corvo Spiritwind wrote:
Dracomicron wrote:

Thursty answered my basic question over in Organized Play.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2v5lu?Prosthetics-Can-I-replace-just-a-hand-or- a-foot#3

He officially clarified that you can buy a hand or a foot prosthetic for 100 credits and don't need the whole limb amputated.

That's good enough for me!

Was there any answer for if that took an augment slot?

Prosthetics do take augment slots, but the majority of (current core) arm/hand slot items have specific verbiage stating that they can be installed in prosthetics, making it a bit of a special case. I believe that the only thing that you can't currently install in a prosthetic limb is the venom spike.

This will be something to watch in the future as more augmentations come out; they'll specifically need to call out whether they fit in a prosthetic. This is not exactly ideal from my perspective, but
it's the path that the developers decided to take.

The important thing to take from this thread is that you can buy just a hand prosthetic or just a foot prosthetic for the same cost as a full limb replacement but not lose your arm or leg augment slot.


Dracomicron wrote:
Corvo Spiritwind wrote:
Dracomicron wrote:

Thursty answered my basic question over in Organized Play.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2v5lu?Prosthetics-Can-I-replace-just-a-hand-or- a-foot#3

He officially clarified that you can buy a hand or a foot prosthetic for 100 credits and don't need the whole limb amputated.

That's good enough for me!

Was there any answer for if that took an augment slot?

Prosthetics do take augment slots, but the majority of (current core) arm/hand slot items have specific verbiage stating that they can be installed in prosthetics, making it a bit of a special case. I believe that the only thing that you can't currently install in a prosthetic limb is the venom spike.

This will be something to watch in the future as more augmentations come out; they'll specifically need to call out whether they fit in a prosthetic. This is not exactly ideal from my perspective, but
it's the path that the developers decided to take.

The important thing to take from this thread is that you can buy just a hand prosthetic or just a foot prosthetic for the same cost as a full limb replacement but not lose your arm or leg augment slot.

This is great to know indeed. Loss of limbs will be more of an annoyance and peeve long-term.

Also this kinda calls for a villain's lair with arms and legs dangling from the ceiling. A dungeon corridor made out of prosthetic hands?

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