Middle Earth / Golarion travel


Homebrew and House Rules

Liberty's Edge

While I was writing my post about Kingsmaker athmosphere, my Imagination starts running: what would happen in the following case: The World’s Anchor opens a passage one hundred miles wide in the Ocean. Traveling west from Beriland, after 100 miles far into the sea (if you pass trough the Portal) you start going East towards Chelish norhern and Nidal southern Azlanti coast; after 50 miles of open water in with the world mixes. At the same way traveling West from Cheliax and Nidal, after 100 miles you go into the mixing portion and, then, you start sailing towards East and Beriland coast.

It happens 50 years after Aragorn Becomes King and in 4718. (Supposing nothing dramatic happens in Rise of Runelords or Winter Reign). In this line we not consider Starfinder.

Realistically what would happen?

Liberty's Edge

*Middle Earth is the movies one. With all the things that are in the Tolkien’s books; as not mentioned but still compatible with the films’ setting

Liberty's Edge

I’m writing it as a different post because it’s not part of the starting question and I’d like to be analyzed and considered at the same level of the other proposed scenarios.

First year: The firsts to note the breach are the Middle-Earth elves, during one of their journeys to Valar lands. They reported back. The noble elven houses starts a council but does not report to Gondor.
They sends one ore two vessels on exploration in Avistan.
Year two: Elves notice that those people are much more advanced in Magic, at the levels of the elves of the First Age. So in another council they decide to send a message to Valar.

Year three: Minor changes in water temperature and salinity; on both sides. Minor changes to climate (a little more humid and hot in Eriador; a little more dry and warm in Cheliax and Nidal). Changes in the marine life and fish stocks on both sides.
A lost ship (“the Fist”)
that was trying to go from Cheliax to Arcadian colonies goes to Beriland.
It trades exotic goods and it goes back with Cheliax with a lot of strange valuable goods and a lot of strange stories in the following year.

Year 4: A lone ship comes from Varda immortal lands to Middle Earth. It has on board some ancient elven kind and the Ainur Gandalf the White to investigate. The ship is send by the Varda into Avistan.

Year 5: The Varda vessel visits Cheliax, Nidal, Varisia, Linnhorm Kingdoms and Hermea.
The Fist ship is back in Middle Earth. It brings a lot of goods and, this time, it travels all long Middle Earth coast, till Anduin estuary and then Pelargir.
Aragorn, the Gondor’s King, heard about the rumors about this exotic ship.
The ship leaves Gondor; but the rumors starts circulating.

Year 6: The Varda Ship is back in Middle Earth.
An ambassador is send to Varda to report back.
Gandalf asks for a council between all the races; he had found a lot of dangerous and perilous things to report.

Year 7. A Great Council is held in Rivendell. Are invited representatives of Blue Mountain Dwarves; Coastal Elves; Lothlórien; Thranduil; Roan; The Lone Mountain and even King Aragorn itself is present.
Many merchant and tens of ships starts coming from Avistan.

The council decides to send wise and erudite man to study this new powerful magic.
Great concerns are raised about Cheliax; which is reported as Evil as Sauron. All armies, after fifty years of peace has to be ready again.

Year 8. More and more merchants are coming to Middle Earth.
Avistan has a lot of things that Middle Earth seeks for: Magic items (before invaluable and very rare); new metals such as adamantium and a new kind of mithril (not so precious and with the same strength and lightness; but several times cheaper; and exotic animals, products, drugs, and so on.
The unique things that are going to the opposite way are the Shire’s tobacco and Middle-Earth elven
art crafts.
This starts causing: a revitalization of Eriador and of Cheliax and Nidal economies and a flow of money away from the rest of Middle-Earth to Avistan, rapidly imporishing Middle Earth economies.

Rumors of this extraordinary event reaches many places in Avistan and beyond.
Pathfinder society sets up it greatest expedition ever.
Explorers are also send by Thrune house; Andoran leaders and merchant gilds and by Rahadum and Magnimar.

Year 9: Gondor and Elves starts sending ambassadors to Avistani Kingdoms.
Pathfinder are going in the most important places in Middle Earth.
The first people who are permanently going to live in the other world: some merchant goes to live in Gondor and little settlements starts be founding by avistani in Eriador.
Umbar Merchants starts passing through the portal.
The council commission is doing great efforts to study Avistan widespread magic and to learn it.

Year 10-11: Both worlds continues to study one each other and to commerce.
At the Time of the War of the Ring Gondor is more or less similar to Taldor; in terms of population, dimension and economy. At that time Gondor population was more or less 3 millions. Less than Taldor. But population continues growing for 50 years and so economy. Now most part of Eriador is under Gondor’s king authority and the kingdom is much more vast.
Now Gondor has more or less 5 million inhabitants. A fervent economy and the dimensions of the Taldan Empire at its Height. It’s army and navy is comparable to Cheliax one. But it suffers a severe lack of magic Knowledge.

Year 12: Cheliax brings a fleet at the other side and attacks the Gondor’s domains in Eriador.

Year 13-14: Gondor-Cheliax war.
Cheliax couldn’t send all its army; so it has to face much more troops.
25.000 Cheliaxian against 80.000 Gondorian.
But their knowledge in Magic is impressive. Their army attacks from north and from south. They conquer great part of Eriador; all its southern part near Greyflood estuary and Enedwaith and the Elven Grey Heavens, and Bree and The North Decuman in the Shire.
To avoid excessive loss of resources they made an Armistice: they will stop if Gondor cease to them all the already conquered lands.

Year 15-16: Cheliax rules it’s domains in Middle-Earth with Iron Fist and gains the complete control of the breach. Enriching both from new dominion earns and the monopoly of commerce.
Other Avistani Nations express concerns and try to find a way to change the situation without a declared war against Cheliax.
Cheliax declare itself
Empire of Cheliax.
Gold continue to flow from Arda to Avistan.
Cheliax limits weapon and offensive magic items import to Arda.
Erebor, with is reserves of more than one billion golden coins is barely scratched by the purchasing of Avistan goods and finally dwarves find a way to give away gold without causing monster inflation in middle Earth.
Cheliax economy is booming.
All Avistan economy enters in a flourishing phase.
First non-militar colonizers goes in dribs and drabs to conquered Eriador

Year 17: a grey fleet from east comes silently in a misty night in the port of the occupied elven city of Grey Eavens.
An army of 10 thousand irate and terrible in their beauty elves, with enlightened faces graven by shadows, attacks and destroys the Chelish fleet anchored in the port. Vane is the resistance of the unprepared Chelish garrison; the elves shine of an ancient power and are strong in arms and in magic; and to lead them are two creatures with the power of demigods. The five thousand man are defeated.

The hundred survivor is send back to the breach as testimonies of the elven power.
The army send by the Varda, leaded by two powerful Ainur secures the city and the countryside. Than starts marching in the interior.
They agree with sufficiency to permit dwarves and man of Eriador to join them.
Old Peregrin Tuck and Merry Brandibuck organized a riot in the Shire.

Year 18. One victory after the other the norhern part of Eriador is freed.

Year 19. Cheliax sends 20 thousand men to Middle-Earth.
Gondor decides to broke the Armistice with Cheliax and join the stressed elven army, attacking the southern domains of Cheliax, from the other side.
War reaches its height of causalities, with three important battles.

Year 20. A little group of Andorans manages to force the naval blockage and send magic items and weapons to the Gondor army.

Year 21. Abrogail negotiates a new armistice with Gondor and Elves.
The breach will be under the shared control of Cheliax and Gondor and Elves. Cheliax is the sole nation that can allow other Avistani nations to pass the breach. Elves and Gondorians have the same power on their side of the breach.
Gondor definitively ceases the territory of the estuary of the Greyflow to Cheliax to be colonized. All the other territories are given back to Gondor.
All ships passing from Golarion to Arda has to firstly go to Grey Heavens for a check.

Year 22. The Deal is done.
Part of the elves and one of those Ainur goes back to immortal land. Part remains in Grey Heavens.

Year 23. Gondor and Elves purchased a coastal area in Varisia from Magnimar and founds an indipendent city Elendil; for Gondorian merchants and to seat a council with the task of studying this New World and its Magic. This council is presiede by the Ainur Gandalf.

Year 24-33. Great part of Middle Earth is continuously becoming poorer and poorer due to continuous commercial flow.
Gondor is more or less in equilibrium thanks to its commercial inputs. The Shire thanks to its exports of tobacco (north decuman is restored) and elves due to its art craft exports. Middle Earth Dwarven works are progressively more appreciated; but other countries; Roan, Harad, Humbar, Mordor, Esterlings and the Eastern Nations are now spending all their wealth to purchase goods from Golarion. Gondor and the lone mountain hires Avistani mercenaries and magicians.
Erebor is still the reachest market to conquer.
Abrogalia, the Chelish colony now has hundred of thousand inhabitants and is booming, both for merchants and a farming economy.
Grey Heavens is now a major port. An Ainur makes it safe.
Cheliax treasure is now rich in a way that worries a lot other Avistani nations. For tho reasons they try to sell their goods in Elendil, trying make them enter into Arda trough Gondorian ships; to diminish the trade incomes of Cheliax. Elendil is the fastest growing city in Golarion.

Gondor erudites are now more at ease with Avistani magic techniques.
Magic becomes more common in Middle Earth (but not as in Golarion)

The Elendil Council is doing great.

Silver Crusade

If the elves of Middle Earth invaded Cheliax, they would lose. Big time. It would be as one sided as if Sandpoint tried to invade Magnimar. The demigods they have leading them are, at best, essentially as powerful as balor demons. Cheliax has AT LEAST one being of equivalent power as the person reigning in the ruler, based on the power Gandalf showed, Abrogail Thrune II is roughly the same power, if not stronger. Tolkien tried to talk about how much better the elves were than anyone, I'm fairly certain if you sent one of the greater orders of the Helllknights into Lothlorien, they'd come back with Galadriel in chains, or her head.

Liberty's Edge

For sure. For this reasons I imagine elves and Gondorian purchasing a little inahabited coastal portion of Varisia from Magnimar.
Ok, ok, elves are not so strong comparing to Golarion characters (but remember I’m keeping in mind the Film’s version of Middle Earth); but Valar are epic characters (I mean; they sunk a continent and reshaped the world in a night). The strongest between even the Maiar are even very strong. Remember Sauron is just a Maiar. And I don’t think that there is in Cheliax anyone able to defeat Sauron at the height of its power. Probably Sauron is an Epic Character. And he is just one Maiar.

But you are right. Hell knights are stronger than Middle Earth warriors.

Silver Crusade

A fair point, regarding the Valar, but you have to admit, if they came bodily into Golarion, that takes the leashes off the Lords of the Nine, including Asmodeus himself. You bring gods in on one side, I imagine you'd find a temporary ceasefire on the world you're invading. At best, you're only fighting Asmodeus and the archdevils. At worst... well, demons and devils tend to join forces against the daemons, and neither side knows who these newcomers are with.


The problem with relying on a few powerful characters is one of logistics. Sure, you can win a given fight, but you can only gain the territory one person can hold. Considering the higher-level threats from Golarion have teleportation, it seems likely that it will end up as duels between champions that are mostly just a distraction while Cheliax takes over.

Personally, given Tolkien's dislike of technology (and my love of it), it seems too poetic to pass up having the biggest opposition to an invasion of Golarion be the current holder of the Divinity Drive.


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Luca Eugenio Barlassina wrote:
*Middle Earth is the movies one. With all the things that are in the Tolkien’s books; as not mentioned but still compatible with the films’ setting

Just a quick clarification: Middle Earth is the name of the continent in which the Lord of the Rings takes place, not the name of the world. The actual name of the world is Arda.

To be honest, I think you'd get a back-and-forth as each world brings out bigger guns. To start off with, Middle Earth is screwed. It's simply at a much lower power level than Golarion. I'd spitball the Balrog as a CR 10 creature, for instance, and honestly that's probably being generous. If a CR 10 creature is a timeless evil capable of wiping out an entire dwarven kingdom single-handedly, what happens when you open a portal to a world filled with even more powerful entities? As I said, Middle Earth is screwed.

Middle Earth being overrun by crazy strong newcomers isn't going to go unnoticed by the Valar in the undying lands. And they'd be pissed about this because they have a bit of a "no one that powerful should be in Middle Earth" policy. That's the reason they sent the wizards (who themselves were carrying a rather heavy power handicap) rather than acting directly against Sauron, and they wouldn't take kindly to a flood of Sauron-level threats.

Now the big question is, how powerful are the Valar in terms of their combat ability? It's intentionally left vague, but we do have some evidence to work with. One of our evidences is that the Valar individually more powerful than Melkor. In terms of how they're presented in Silmarillion, Melkor is presented as weaker in combat than the Valar but more powerful in terms of his ability to shape and control the world. The only good example we have of Melkor fighting a non-Valar was against Fingolfin, who in a suicidal death rage was just powerful to land one good critical hit before going down. Fingolfin is portrayed as more or less being in a supernaturally powerful state in his rage, so he'd be more than a few notches above any other elves. As a comparison to another powerful first age elf, and we know Feanor was about on par with nine Balrogs. Just using my CR 10 Balrog spitball and CR equivalency, that gives CR 17 for Feanor, CR 20 for Fingolfin, and probably around CR 25 for Melkor.

So the Valar are probably individually around the CR 30 range. But that's a measure of their combat ability. Their full power goes far beyond their combat prowess... and in that respect they're basically gods by Golarion's standards. They can shape land-masses at will, create entirely new living races, the works. There's no "winning" against these guys; if you get into a fight with them, their destructive power is literally going to cause the very land mass you're fighting on to break apart and collapse into the sea. While they do have physical forms and can be defeated (unlike Golarion gods) their other abilities put them a league above anything of mortal stature that Golarion has to offer. And remember, there are fourteen of them working together.

These guys are going to arrive in Middle Earth and brutally put down any invaders from Golarion. No contest, once the Valar decide to go all-in they will literally wipe the floor with any trouble-makers. Then they'll turn their attention to the portal with the goal of putting a stop to this threat at the source. The big question is whether they stop at the portal and just rotate guards to keep out the riff-raff, or whether they pass through. And I really think that depends on how bad the invasion from Golarion was. If we're talking about something like you suggest with Cheliax trying to conquer them... yeah, I think the Valar would probably seek to eliminate that threat entirely.

There is no agency in Golarion that can possibly do battle with a league of 14 beings in the CR 30+ range that have essentially divinely morphic powers. Teleporting around them won't solve the problem, since these guys will literally break down the very land mass itself as they advance. We're talking bunch of beings powerful enough to cause Starfall levels of damage constantly. They're capable of causing sufficient damage to Golarion that Rovagug could be freed, which would necessarily bring in the gods of Golarion against them.

Now, it's entirely possible at this point they'd all sit down, have a calm discussion, and agree to get that portal closed and everyone goes their own way. Both worlds have suffered grievous damage and no one is really happy about it, but both sides really just want the other to stop messing with their world. But that's not an interesting answer, is it? No, let's say the Golarion gods panic and go all-in against the Valar. And the thing is, Golarion has a massive pantheon. The Valar are powerful, but powerful enough to beat back 100+ deities? Probably not. The ensuing battle would basically destroy the Inner Sea region, however. These guys aren't going down without taking a continent or two with them.

Well, the Valar are still immortal and destroying their physical forms won't kill them. Even if all of them are defeated, they'll fall back to Arda and call for daddy. That is to say, Eru Iluvatar, a capital G God. If you thought a bunch of CR 30+ demigods with divinely morphic power were scary, how about the guy who can create beings at that level of power at-will? And this is where I think we hit our final trump card, because Arda is ultimately a monotheistic world with a thinly veiled Christian mythos with an all-powerful creator god. Golarion, on the other hand, is a polytheistic world where divine power is divided among a huge pantheon each with their own limited portfolios. The very definition of god is different between the worlds, such that Golarion's deities wouldn't qualify by Arda's definition, and that means there is no equivalent being in Golarion's universe.

So that's my verdict: Golarion mortals beat Middle Earth mortals, then get beaten by the Valar, who in turn get beaten by Golarion's gods, who in turn are simply not in the same league as Arda's God.


I'm going to have to argue with at least the terminology of "divinely morphic powers" when referring to the Valar. When comparing that with PF, the ability to alter the landscape at will is restricted to one's realm in one's home plane. It's entirely possible that the fourteen share the entire (single?) material plane containing Arda for this purpose, but they don't have that kind of ability in a universe built by different rules.


The Sideromancer wrote:
I'm going to have to argue with at least the terminology of "divinely morphic powers" when referring to the Valar. When comparing that with PF, the ability to alter the landscape at will is restricted to one's realm in one's home plane. It's entirely possible that the fourteen share the entire (single?) material plane containing Arda for this purpose, but they don't have that kind of ability in a universe built by different rules.

I was just using the closest term that PF has to describe those kinds of power. In any event, if we start arguing over whether one ability carries over between worlds, we have to start arguing over all abilities. And that's just a rabbit hole.

Liberty's Edge

I quite agree with Dasrak. I think that he described what would happen in the whole evolution of the situation. I voluntarily imagine that Valar wrath isn’t turned against Golarion and that they didn’t disrupt half-Middle Hearth to humiliate the invasors. I instead imagined that they summon a powerful army of prowling elves; leaded by powerful Maiar, who could use their powers, for instance to pour over ships with giant waves, or raise strong storms directly on Cheleaxian camps. I imagine that they stop at the portal and than send someone to study the other multiverse In tranquillity from a place that could be purchased from Golarion mortals.
But a full scale war would probably go as Dasrak suggested.
It’s a likely scenario if Valar decides to attack. But why would they declare war to an intere multiverse? I think they are wise enough.
If their “divine morphic” powers are limited in the other universe they can anyway lift a giant tsunami from the Arda’s side through the one-hundred-miles wide portal. It won’t destroy Avistan civilization, but I imagine it would be a major threat for coastal Cheliax shores near Azlanti ocean. And if they send another fleet they could do it another time. And than again. With so great damages they would probably still and wait and would renounce to invasions.

Also, even if I know for sure that the ordinary warriors of Middle Earth are not as strong as the Avistan ones, I don’t think they are so weak: regarding the Balrog Tolkien said that it “was the evil that the greed of the dwarves awakened and that it was the cause of Moria fallen.” But he never said that the Balrog destroyed Moria “ALONE”. I think that the Balrog, having seen how much is idolized by Orcs and Goblins, probably summoned an army of them, that he leaded in ancient times to conquer Moria.

I know Arda is much more wider than Middle Earth; and that’s the point in the scenery that I imagined in which commerce between the two worlds remains active before the failed Cheliax invasion. East of Rhûn there are countries much more populated and civilized than Middle Earth lands; and, given the probably rareness of magic items even in those distant lands in Arda; that’s why parts of Middle Earth could become so much important as commercial routes. And that’s why Avistan economy should benefit so much from it.

But the question is: Valar would keep the portal open? And would they allow merchants and mortals to pass?
And the same would be done by Golarion powers?

If so, how much time before Magic becomes more common in Middle Earth?
And how could Erebor benefit of the huge wealth of its government to buy Golarion stuff and became a major magic user?
And how many people are going to live in the other world; from both sides?
(Probably a lot of the Mordor -human and orcs- inhabitants; enclosed there with a booming population. And by the fact that in Avistan they could be less stigmatized: MORDOR ORCS are NOT GOLARION ORCS; the same name for different races)
I think Valar would not close the portal as long as they think they can learn from the other universe and contain the threat or their inhabitants) but I’m not so sure they are going to make everyone pass.
To prevent it they could raise a ring of Land around the portal and make it keep by creating creatures as strong as Ent to protect it and just one channel that goes from the encircled waters to the Ocean, guarded by a fort with an elven garrison and some Maiar.

To you is more likely the Hypothesis of the Ring of Lands or that the Varden defeats the army and than return to undying lands, permitting the peoples of Arda and Golarion to travel and learn and commerce and just preventing other invasions?

And; what would be the reaction of Arda elves to Golarion elves (and vice versa)?
I mean; they are quite similar; but the Golarion ones are not immortal.
Could they mate more frequently than human and elves in Middle Earth; given the similarities?
And is going the offspring of such relationship be just a long-lifespan mortal as Golarion elf or immortal as the Arda ones?
Those hybrids needs the Valar permission to become immortal as happened to the half-blood Elrond?


In middle earth, many undead are guardian types or can be called upon to trade for an eternal reward. The illuminati like immortals can call on a lot of resources that did not appear in the books.


It's probably best not to compare too directly or to try to be too literal interpreting power levels if you want to mix the worlds directly.

As for the Valar dealing with the whole portal situation? They're not likely to interfere directly in combat - that breaks entire continents. Remember that Gandalf as an Istari had nothing like his full power. Nor did Saruman, for that matter.

Instead, to quote from the fall of Numenor: "the Valar laid down their Guardianship and called upon the One, and the world was changed." Portal goes away. No more problem.

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