Multiclassing 101?


Advice


So far my experience in this game has been pure monoclassing. How well does multiclassing play out in this game, as I have many questions about it.

1) When multi classing how do you split it? Do you go evenly, or is it more dominant/side class. E.G so-and-so has solarion 5 and picked up soldier 1 for that blitz bonus?

2) Any special notes on class match-ups? E.G like types only, such as combat with combat (Like the soldier solarion above) and support with support (like a technomancer mechanic), or can you mix and match anything?


1. Seems like most people favor a little dip for proficiencies, or keying Resolve off a different stat.

2. You can mix and match whatever you'd like. Doesn't mean you should, but you certainly can.


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So going outside of the box in any way, multi-classing or even archtypes, is a question of trade-offs. How well that plays out in the game is going to vary widely on what you're hoping to get out of the character, who you're playing with, and what level the game ends. You can probably tack on a few other statements to that, but those 3 are the big ones in my book. Especially "what level the game ends".

In addition to what Pantshandshake said:

1) What are you willing to trade-off and what do you hope to gain? There is no specific answer here without more specific details. Common practice is to dip into a class for a level 1 bonus (Soldier is commonly abused) or dip out of a class at level 3 for weapon specialization (Soldier is common for this too). Beyond that we circle back to trade-offs, your specific vision for the character, and campaign longevity.

2) What's your motive behind this question? Are you asking if pairing physical classes together makes a more powerful whole or if two supports make a more powerful character? I think the answer to that is, no. Even taking the common dip of Soldier 1 and Solarian X doesn't necessarily make a more powerful character in the long run. It's just different from straight Solarian. Combining Envoy and Mystic doesn't necessarily make a stronger support character, but it could add more flexibility and options. Are those options worth it? That's entirely personal choice. Is stronger than just sticking with a single class? Maybe in the short-term but that's more dubious in the long-term. Some classes have better capstones (if playing to 20) or really solid mid-tier perks. Multi-classing delays, or even excludes, the use of that.


In my experience, and explained above, proficiencies and resolve make up any level 1 "dip" but I enjoy picking and choosing some of the best things that make up certain classes. One such multiclass character I've had great results with was an Envoy 1, Mechanic 3, Envoy 5 (6 total), Solarian 1, Soldier 1, w/e:
The 1st level of Envoy is to enjoy Get Em and tie your resolve to charisma. The 3 levels in Mechanic will give you a drone that can use heavy weapons and weapon specialization. The rest of the envoy levels are to get what you want and Improved Get Em with the end result being both you and your drone wielding heavy weapons and spraying the battlefield with reliable damage while buffing the team. You'll need Bodyguard and In Harm's Way feats in order to keep your 30hp drone alive later on, but it's a fun little fire support tool that you don't sacrifice much to get. The odd Solarian level is just to boost your BAB, saves, give you +1 AC from solar armor, and +1 damage from photon.
The soldier level gives you BAB, saves, proficiencies, and a style.

Possibly a good choice if you ever get there is grabbing some technomancer levels after you get level 6 spells as a Mystic. You aren't actually losing caster level, it opens up an entirely new spell list to utilize spell gems with, and you don't really get that much from the Mystic 20th level capstone.


Over 9000 wrote:

In my experience, and explained above, proficiencies and resolve make up any level 1 "dip" but I enjoy picking and choosing some of the best things that make up certain classes. One such multiclass character I've had great results with was an Envoy 1, Mechanic 3, Envoy 5 (6 total), Solarian 1, Soldier X:

The 1st level of Envoy is to enjoy Get Em and tie your resolve to charisma. The 3 levels in Mechanic will give you a drone that can use heavy weapons and weapon specialization. The rest of the envoy levels are to get what you want and Improved Get Em with the end result being both you and your drone wielding heavy weapons and spraying the battlefield with reliable damage while buffing the team. You'll need Bodyguard and In Harm's Way feats in order to keep your 30hp drone alive later on, but it's a fun little fire support tool that you don't sacrifice much to get.

I don't wanna come off as rude, but i don't think your Drone is gonna be relevant at all past some point as he'll cap around 7-8 total bonus to hit, and that inclure Improved Get'em bonus. Imo by trying to have what's best about everyclass you'll end up having nothing. A dip or two for first level abilities are alright, but i think your Build spread too much.


You only need to target grid intersections with explode Heavy Weapons, and therefor to hit is completely irrelevant.


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Over 9000 wrote:
You only need to target grid intersections with Heavy Weapons, and therefor AC is completely irrelevant.

Oh yeah right my bad sorry! Not all heavy weapon are DC based, but enough are yeah so you could make it work and since those weapon DC scale of item level, you drone attack would stay relevant. I'm curious to see how it would work, it seems interesting. You got bodyguard Your Drone would be incredibly weak to AOE. Your character would have God-like Base save at level 20. Something like Fort +13, Ref +11 and Will +15 if you go Envoy 6/Mechanic 3/Solarian 1/Soldier 9.

One more question though, why make your Key Stats Charisma? Dex seems like a better choice for better Weapon DCs, initiative and Ac?


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It is tricky, but as long as you have a schtick, and all aspects of your build support that schtick, then you'll do okay.

I have a ysoki sniper build that is Sharpshooter Soldier 3, Exocortex Mechanic X that uses Overcharge to buff the laser damage of the Diaspora Sniper Rifle.

Another sniper idea is to go some form of Sharpshooter Soldier/Ghost Operative that gets debilitating tricks on powerful sniper hits.

I'm also working on a build that goes

Solarian 3
Alternate Envoy and Solarian levels until Solarian 9/Envoy 7
Solarian X

And what this does is mitigates the damage in going full Charisma for a Solarian, because you get a bunch of other good Charisma stuff from your Envoy levels. It (eventually) sucks for saving throw DCs, but works really well, between Expertise and Sidereal Influence, for Skill-based checks, like Intimidation builds, Unfriendly Fire, etc. while still maintaining some melee effectiveness.

Basically, look for classes that have overlapping, yet still stacking, abilities, and be prepared to give up the highest level abilities in each class, in order to maximize that one area.


Algarik wrote:
Over 9000 wrote:
You only need to target grid intersections with Heavy Weapons, and therefor AC is completely irrelevant.

Oh yeah right my bad sorry! Not all heavy weapon are DC based, but enough are yeah so you could make it work and since those weapon DC scale of item level, you drone attack would stay relevant. I'm curious to see how it would work, it seems interesting. You got bodyguard Your Drone would be incredibly weak to AOE. Your character would have God-like Base save at level 20. Something like Fort +13, Ref +11 and Will +15 if you go Envoy 6/Mechanic 3/Solarian 1/Soldier 9.

One more question though, why make your Key Stats Charisma? Dex seems like a better choice for better Weapon DCs, initiative and Ac?

You have the right idea to maybe pick soldier first and go with dex with proficiencies, but I find that with heavy armor and using explode heavy weapons (which I did not specify earlier, sorry) you don't need a very high dexterity (just enough for max dex on heavy armor), and you'll gain a lot more out of your other Envoy abilities and skills utilizing a full Charisma. The build I presented probably isn't very optimized, but it emphasizes getting the drone early when it is really good, and then getting your 6 levels of envoy followed by pretty much whatever you want. The only important thing is 3 levels of mechanic, and 6 levels of envoy. Any good combination of those is probably doing pretty well but your later levels might just be keeping your drone's HP, AC, and saves at decent levels so it doesn't just explode when something looks at it.


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Starfinder Superscriber

Here is a list of various dips that I've been looking at that I think may be worth the cost for some builds in some games. There are all the usual caveats about skill bonuses not stacking, and worrying about getting Weapon Spec at 3, and effects on caster level and BAB. I think, unfortunately, most of these don't work most of the time because of all that. But I think they can work, especially if you start at higher level where you don't necessarily have to feel the pain, and especially if you take dips that either shore up a class's weakness or compliment their strengths (though, because of insight bonuses not stacking, and so much being tied to class level, this is hard).

Envoy 1 - Get'em (+1 to attacks as move action for your group). +1d6 Insight to Sense motive and one other skill. Lots of skills. Can make Cha your primary for Resolve if you want to play a 'face'.

Envoy 6 - Improved Get'em (+2 to attacks as a move action for your group). 1d6+1 Insight to Sense motive and 2 other skills, with an expertise talent in one of those skills. Lots of skills. Two other Improvisations (several of which are decent even if you don't go higher as an Envoy). Can make Cha your primary for Resolve if you want to play a 'face'.

Drone Mechanic 3 - Heavy Weapon (explode) mobile turret. Overload. A Mechanic Trick. Can make Int your primary for resolve if you want to play a knowledge-y soldier or something (that's weird, but I like weird).

Mechanic 7 - Miracle Worker. Remote Hack. Several Mechanic tricks. Exos get Heavy Weapon Prof. Drones get a slightly more survivable drone than going Mech 3.

Star Shaman Mystic 1 - Walk the Void (no need to breath in space and a fly speed, makes Zero-G potentially easier). Mystic Spells as spell ampules.

Operative 1 - Get nearly all the skills as class skills. +1 Insight to all skill checks and init. 2 Skill Focus feats. A mess of skill points. Set Dex as Primary stat for Resolve.

Operative 3 - As operative 1, but +2 Insight to all skill checks and Init. Add Evasion and Weapon prof/spec in Sniper weapons. Also get a bonus combat feat or an operative exploit.

Armor Solarian 1 - +1 to AC. +1 Insight to damage (photon mode).

Blitz Soldier 1 - Fleet + Improved Init + Heavy Armor Prof + all the weapon profs. STR or DEX as primary for Resolve.

Various Soldier 3 - Bonus Combat feat, Heavy Armor Prof. All Weapons and Specializations. Gear Boost. STR or DEX as primary for Resolve.

Technomancer 3 - Spell Focus. Increases CL. Technomancer Spell Ampules. A Magic Hack (several of which don't specify only working on TM spells, so could be used on Mystic spells, like using Robot Influence so your [Mind Affecting] Mystic Spells can work on robots)


Over 9000 wrote:


You have the right idea to maybe pick soldier first and go with dex with proficiencies, but I find that with heavy armor and using explode heavy weapons (which I did not specify earlier, sorry) you don't need a very high dexterity (just enough for max dex on heavy armor), and you'll gain a lot more out of your other Envoy abilities and skills utilizing a full Charisma. The build I presented probably isn't very optimized, but it emphasizes getting the drone early when it is really good, and then getting your 6 levels of envoy followed by pretty much whatever you want. The only important thing is 3 levels of mechanic, and 6 levels of envoy. Any good combination of those is probably doing pretty well but your later levels might just be keeping your drone's HP, AC, and saves at decent levels so it doesn't just explode when something looks at it.

No worries i should had known as i definetly knew Reflex based weapon were a thing! :P

I'm at work at the moment, but i came with an idea of Envoy 12/Mechanic 7/Soldier 1. I'll work on it and post it when i'm done!


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Dracomicron wrote:

It is tricky, but as long as you have a schtick, and all aspects of your build support that schtick, then you'll do okay.

-snip-

Basically, look for classes that have overlapping, yet still stacking, abilities, and be prepared to give up the highest level abilities in each class, in order to maximize that one area.

pithica42 wrote:

Here is a list of various dips that I've been looking at that I think may be worth the cost for some builds in some games. There are all the usual caveats about skill bonuses not stacking, and worrying about getting Weapon Spec at 3, and effects on caster level and BAB. I think, unfortunately, most of these don't work most of the time because of all that. But I think they can work, especially if you start at higher level where you don't necessarily have to feel the pain, and especially if you take dips that either shore up a class's weakness or compliment their strengths (though, because of insight bonuses not stacking, and so much being tied to class level, this is hard).

-Snip-

Thank you so much for the help. That was the kind of stuff I was hoping to see. While I asked this in a general sense, the specific reason was that I was thinking about doing a one-shot with some pregen characters and was wondering how well the game supports "flavor first" character design so my players can have wacky character concepts to play as instead of soldier mcbadass #14.

Shadow Lodge

Soldier sharpshooter 1 is a great dip For anyone that shoots. There's almost guaranteed to be cover so its almost like a +2 or +3 to hit.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Re: Envoy/Mystic

Inspiring Boost to restore stamina points + mystic cure to restore hit points can be really useful for the party's staying power.

It's probably "best" (for healing damage) to put at least 6 levels in envoy (to also pick up Clever Improvisations) to be able to restore more stamina; mystic cure already allows you to transfer the caster's hit points in addition to the spell healing. Also, because there are hardly any options to restore stamina outside of spending a resolve point and resting 10 minutes.

Of course, you can get a similar benefit from a single-classed envoy that takes Connection Inkling (selecting mystic cure as the 1st-level spell), just with fewer uses per day for healing hit point damage (and not as much utility from other spells).


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Algarik wrote:
I'm at work at the moment, but i came with an idea of Envoy 12/Mechanic 7/Soldier 1. I'll work on it and post it when i'm done!

If you're taking 7 levels in mechanic, you might as well go for 8 to pick up Improved Overcharge. Especially if the character is "geared" toward combat damage.

Shadow Lodge

Dragonchess Player wrote:

Re: Envoy/Mystic

Inspiring Boost to restore stamina points + mystic cure to restore hit points can be really useful for the party's staying power.

I don't think this is the case. I haven't tried it, but even at full on envoy inspiring boost scales badly against the damage your party is taking. Its almost never going to be enough to keep you from having to rest, and rest yes/no is most of the use of staminia.

I think a dedicated healer in starfinder would have a really high constitution and just not worry about the staminia pool : heal people back to nearly full HP by using your own HP Pool and let your staminia take any hits you take till you can run around the corner and hide.


Multiclassing is a lot of numbers to deal with @-@, but then again, I'm doing it all at once by generating a high-level character. Right now I'm using the Awesomenauts as my inspiration as their zany-saturday morning show style seems right at home with the feel of starfinder.

Going to make my favorite (and main) Raelynn as a soldier 9/operative 7. Note that i'm going to accurate emulation of her abilities/role in her respective game over making the most optimal build.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Dragonchess Player wrote:

Re: Envoy/Mystic

Inspiring Boost to restore stamina points + mystic cure to restore hit points can be really useful for the party's staying power.

I don't think this is the case. I haven't tried it, but even at full on envoy inspiring boost scales badly against the damage your party is taking. Its almost never going to be enough to keep you from having to rest, and rest yes/no is most of the use of staminia.

I think a dedicated healer in starfinder would have a really high constitution and just not worry about the staminia pool : heal people back to nearly full HP by using your own HP Pool and let your staminia take any hits you take till you can run around the corner and hide.

Some groups use Resolve more frequently than others; even if they only need one less rest period per day, that may be "worth it" to them. Also, there are occasionally situations where you don't always have the luxury of a 10 minute rest to refresh the stamina pool.

Even with the restrictions on Inspiring Boost ("significant enemy", must be used on the next action after the hit) and in groups that don't burn through a lot of Resolve, shoring up stamina can help reduce the resources (spell slots, healing serums, etc.) needed to keep the other party members functioning. If one of your character's allies can take even one more hit before your character needs to sacrifice their own hit points and "run around the corner and hide," that's one more round of combat where they are doing something useful. Just like "in-combat healing" in Pathfinder, it may not usually be the "best" choice of actions, but sometimes it is.

Shadow Lodge

But there's an opportunity cost for your standard action healing someone up, its not dropping the guy any faster which also drops the damage that the party takes.

Sovereign Court

Yeah, but if keeping that other person up means that they can do significantly more damage than what you could have achieved, then that would be a better use of your standard.

Shadow Lodge

Ellias Aubec wrote:
Yeah, but if keeping that other person up means that they can do significantly more damage than what you could have achieved, then that would be a better use of your standard.

The Envoys healing can't do that.

The mystic can if her burns HP.


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BigNorseWolf wrote:
Ellias Aubec wrote:
Yeah, but if keeping that other person up means that they can do significantly more damage than what you could have achieved, then that would be a better use of your standard.

The Envoys healing can't do that.

The mystic can if her burns HP.

I've seen Envoy's Stamina healing prevent a knockout numerous times. I don't think it's fair to say that it "can't" keep someone up.

I know that, when I'm up front in tank mode and some pronking walruses are spearing me with their tusks, I never say no to an extra 10 stamina.


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Dragonchess Player wrote:
If you're taking 7 levels in mechanic, you might as well go for 8 to pick up Improved Overcharge. Especially if the character is "geared" toward combat damage.

I'll take a look, my build isn't finished yet, i just came back from a big LARP week-end, but thanks for the tips.

Dacromicron wrote:

I've seen Envoy's Stamina healing prevent a knockout numerous times. I don't think it's fair to say that it "can't" keep someone up.

I know that, when I'm up front in tank mode and some pronking walruses are spearing me with their tusks, I never say no to an extra 10 stamina.

I think both BigNorseWolf are both right to some extend and that might have to do with the fact that inspiring boost scaling isn't properly balanced as it scale way worse than damage.

Inspiring boost healing around 5-6 point of stamina at level 1 and attack deal around 1d4+1(3.5 avg) at that level, that's pretty good as it heal an average of 1.7 attack.

At level 20, inspiring boost heals for 45-46 stamina. If i look at the CR20 Space Goblin monark from the Core Rulebook, he can hit for 13d6+22(67.5), which mean inspiring boost heals for about 0.68 attack. Bear in mind that this is a really rough estimate as it only takes 1 attack into consideration and i threw crit out of the calculation.

To properly scale i think Inspiring boost should heal for 3xlevel + Charisma, or if we want to keep Charima relevant, it should scales something like LVL x 2 + Charisma x2 around level 10 and Levelx2 + Charisma x 3 around level 15-20.

That being said, even if combat healing isn't the best thing there is, there's still moment where it can save your tank's ass. Beside, healing is garanteed, damage is not. If you bet your tank's life on a single shot with 50-60% accuracy you're making a risky gamble.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Solar Armor Solarian / Operative looks like it can work.

Solarian doesn’t have a really good class feature giving an Insight bonus. The Operative’s Edge will give that to all skills. The problem is the more levels of Solarian you take, the further behind your Operative’s Edge is.

You also have the problem that the increased full attacks are based on your level in a single class. Multiclassing these two will delay the triple attack.

I suspect that a lot of the Starfinder multiclassing will,be dipping because your advancement is so tightly tied to your highest class level.


Finally had time to finish that build as promised:

Race: Anything. (Stats assume Human)
Theme: Anything. (Stats assume odd point into Str)

LVL 1 Attributes:
Str: 11
Dex: 16
Con: 10
int: 10
Wis: 10
Cha: 16

LVL 5 Attributes:
Str: 11
Dex: 18+2
Con: 12
int: 10
Wis: 12
Cha: 18

LVL 10 Attributes:
Str: 11
Dex: 19+4
Con: 14
int: 12
Wis: 14
Cha: 18+2

LVL 15 Attributes:
Str: 11
Dex: 20+6
Con: 16+2
int: 12
Wis: 16
Cha: 19+2

LVL 20 Attributes:
Str: 11
Dex: 20+6
Con: 18+2
int: 14
Wis: 18
Cha: 20+2

Feats and Special Abilities:
1 - Envoy 1; Envoy Improvisation (Get'Em), Expertise 1d6, Skill Expertise (Intimidate), Feat: Bodyguard
2 - Soldier1 ; Primary Fighting Style (Blitz), Primary Fighting Technique (Rapid Response)
3 - Mechanic 1 ; Artificial Intelligence (Drone), Bypass +1, Custom Rig Feat: In harm's way
4 - Mechanic 2 ; Mechanic trick (Overclocking)
5 - Mechanic 3 ; Overload, Weapon Specialization, Feat: Versatile Specialization
6 - Envoy 2 ; Envoy Improvisation (dispiriting taunt)
7 - Envoy 3 ; Expertise Talent (Rattling Presence), Feat: Deadly Aim
8 - Envoy 4 ; Envoy Improvisation (Quick dispiriting taunt)
9 - Envoy 5 ; Expertise 1d6+1, Skill expertise (Diplomacy) Feat: Kip Up
10 - Envoy 6 ; Envoy Improvisation (Improved Get'em)
11 - Envoy 7 ; Expertise talent (Slick Customer) feat: Improved Initiative
12 - Envoy 8 ; Envoy Improvisation (Don't quit)
13 - Envoy 9 ; Expertise 1d6+2, Skill Expertise (Bluff) Feat: Great Fortitude
15 - Envoy 11 ; Envoy Improvisation (Convincing Liar) Feat: Iron Will
16 - Envoy 12 ; Expertise Talent (Improved Hurry)
17 - Mechanic 4; Mechanic Trick (Repair Drone) Feat: Lightning Reflexes
18 - Mechanic 5; Bypass +2, Remote Hack
19 - Mechanic 6; Mechanic trick (Visual Data Processor) Feat: Improved Iron Will
20 - Mechanic 7; Expert Rig, Miracle Worker/Day

Skills: Max Intimidate, Bluff, Diplomacy, Engineering, Computer, perception, the rest does not matter much.

Drone (Hover Drone):
1 - Basic Mods, Limited Ai, Master Control, Skill unit (Acrobatics). Mods:Weapon Mount Feat: Lightning Reflexe
3 - Mod:Weapon Proficiency(Heavy Weapon) Feat: Versatile Specialisation
5 - Mod: Resistance (Fire)
6 - Feat: Deadly aim
7 - Expert AI, Mod: Resistance (Electricity)

This build ends up doing what most envoys will end up doing, it’s only gonna miss some improvisation option. It’s gonna be way worse in the skill department though.

BBA 15 is perfectly fine, especially for a Reflex weapon user.
Its saves are really good:

Fort: +23 Ref: +23 Will: +18 (Including MK5 Resistance ring)

The Drone is made of paper thought, with an AC of 21, the Envoy will probably have to spend a lot of reaction to tank it, and that means a lot of free damage, shouldn’t be a problem with melee enemies thought, as the drone can fly. The drone gets an ''okay'' Reflex saves of +11 and some minor energy resistance (7) to the two most common energies. Finally, with an hp pool of 70 at level 20, it should be able to take a hit without dying, but it won't take two.

I also feel like an int version of this build ditching Dispiriting taunt for something else, could work nicely as the main hacker thanks to envoy expertise boost.

Finally i didn't take an 8th level of Mechanics as overload weapon is its own standard action and this build already uses all its action on Envoy abilities. Although that made me think of a Mechanic 19/Soldier(Blitz) 1 build and that would make for a scary sniper/Reflex Weapon gunner with those extra 6d6!


I am doing great with my multi-class mystic healer/ blitz soldier combo. So far it is just a dip soldier but i am considering taking it up to 3rd level. I took an archtype to try it out when i reached a level that i could so you could say I am not even a healer anymore, "I am Valorous the battle medic chosen of phasma! NOW FEAR MY GODDESS' DIVINE WRATH YOU UNDEAD ABOMINATIONS!". Though I am a take a dip in solarian for that nifty aura armor and just veiw it as a paladin's aura and take two levelsof that soi can take the gravitational hold revelation. So i can just tell anyone that tries to ambush while in the middle of combat tosit thier butts back down. I may take those as my next two levels.


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ghostunderasheet wrote:
I am doing great with my multi-class mystic healer/ blitz soldier combo. So far it is just a dip soldier but i am considering taking it up to 3rd level. I took an archtype to try it out when i reached a level that i could so you could say I am not even a healer anymore, "I am Valorous the battle medic chosen of phasma! NOW FEAR MY GODDESS' DIVINE WRATH YOU UNDEAD ABOMINATIONS!". Though I am a take a dip in solarian for that nifty aura armor and just veiw it as a paladin's aura and take two levelsof that soi can take the gravitational hold revelation. So i can just tell anyone that tries to ambush while in the middle of combat tosit thier butts back down. I may take those as my next two levels.

Although i wouldn't feel like delaying casting progression, i don't think one can ever go wrong with a Blitz Soldier Dip, it's so stupidly strong. You get a bunch of weapon feat, heavy armor proficiency, all that would be worthwhile on it's own, but on top of this you get +4 non typed initiative bonus and a +10 feet land speed enhancement, that's crazy.

Edit: Oh and i forgot, you get to make your Resolve scale of Strength which is awesome for Solarian or Dexterity which is awesome for everyone else as Dexterity is overpowered in this game.

Liberty's Edge

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The way I determine Multi-Class options when I consider a MC character, I look at what type of campaign i'll be playing, and what I would consider my "optimum level" in that campaign.

For example, If I'm playing SF Society, I'll try to make the "sweet spot" of my Soldier/Mechanic build around the 5th to 7th level. If I am playing a home campaign where I know we will be hitting higher levels (16+) I might stick to a concentrated build.

You have to analyze what you want, and when you want it, before you can come up with any MC architecture.


Well if your playing a multi-classed character who is also archtyping take my divine champion mystic/blitz soldier for example. He really is not a caster focused class anymore. Essentially I have a range Mobility focused Paladin-esk build. paladins are not blaster casters.

<Doesn't a paladin [in pathfinder/D&D] have a rebuke evil like ability that does ranged damage? Because my character does use the mystic mind thrust spell but not as much as he uses the mystic heal>


Hi! (Casting Raise Dead on thus thread)

The philosophy I'm embracing is to leverage a couple of dips but go long on a desired end-class.

The Plan:
---: Human, Dex16, Int16, Wis11
S01(Blitz): +4 Init, + 10 Move, Feats(ImpInit, 2ndFeat)
Op01(Ghost): Skills, Edge +1
Op02(Ghost): Evasion, More Skills. Feat(WpnSpec), Op(Combat Feat: Versatile Specialization)
Tech01: Technomancer to the end. Spells.

Intended Result:
1st: Weak soldier. I believe this can be survived.
3rd: 2 levels of Operative give good flexibility, broad skill base, and (thanks to Versatile Specialization) full combat damage with most weapons
6th: 3rd level technomancer, No loss of BAB (+4), improved saves. 1 full spell level back from a single-class technomancer; no way around that, but no worse than that. This loss of magical power is counterbalanced by the soldier-level damage with weapons.

Conclusion:
1st level is the weak point.
The combination of classes and high intelligence will yield a vast dividend of class-ranks and thus, flexibility.
Versatile Specialization damage scales, even the there is a slight BAB penalty to normal 3/4 progression. This can be offset with technology.
Technomancer skills and spells are flexible and powerful.
In the rare case, where high levels are reached, s/he still gains access to 6th level spells, but sacrifices Wish.

Thoughts? Obvious blunders?

Thanks!

DochSavage


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
DochSavage wrote:


S01(Blitz): +4 Init, + 10 Move, Feats(ImpInit, 2ndFeat)
Op01(Ghost): Skills, Edge +1
Op02(Ghost): Evasion, More Skills. Feat(WpnSpec), Op(Combat Feat: Versatile Specialization)
Tech01: Technomancer to the end. Spells.

<snip>

Conclusion:
1st level is the weak point.
The combination of classes and high intelligence will yield a vast dividend of class-ranks and thus, flexibility.
Versatile Specialization damage scales, even the there is a slight BAB penalty to normal 3/4 progression. This can be offset with technology.
Technomancer skills and spells are flexible and powerful.
In the rare case, where high levels are reached, s/he still gains access to 6th level spells, but sacrifices Wish.

I would suggest you skip the level of soldier and do three levels of operative.

With three levels of operative you get Weapon Specialization at the normal point rather than waiting until 6th level or spending feats. Note that 3rd level Operative gives you +10’ movement that you were getting from Blitz, same BAB, trick attack goes to d8 and you have more skill ranks.

You do lose a lot of weapon proficiencies and some hit points, but the damage bonus will make it a lot more survivable.

I do think being behind in spell progression will be a problem, but you seem to believe you’ve got that under control.

Shadow Lodge

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I think you're too busy thinking of playing your character at level 20 rather than how you're going to play your character until level 20.


Paizo has intentionally worked to making multiclass less good in Starfinder. D&D 5e is the same way, and I bet Pathfinder 2 will also be this way. There will always be min/max ways to do things to get tiny bonuses here and there, but to be honest, when you are in a party, individual character flexibility isn't actually all that important. It's much more important for each character to fill a niche that other characters can't. In your case, this character will be a less than optimal technomancer who can kinda fight better than a typical technomancer, but will ultimately be overshadowed in combat by any Operative, Solarian, or Soldier in the group.

In my group, everyone pretty much has pure character except the technomancer that took one dip into Blitz soldier. The party is level 7 now, but he's still a level 6 caster and is clearly less effective than the other party members. Yes, he typically wins initiative but... *shrug*. Sure, he has all these weapon proficiencies, but the only weapon he uses is a longarm typically. That player, in hindsight, regrets the dip because the party already also has a rock-solid soldier melee fighter (Nuar Blitz fighter... very tough), a Ghost Operative who out DPRs everyone but the Nuar using a level 1 semi-auto pistol and is a huge skill monkey to boot. On top of that, we're about to add an Armor solarian sporting power armor and an artillery laser (new player to the group) and we also have an Envoy and Mechanic along. The technomancer is the magical niche, and he just isn't as useful as he could be because he's not as good at his "real" class as everyone else and the combat bump from soldier is minimal and well overshadowed by real fighters (and, frankly, unnecessary).

People are so interested in characters that can do everything, they lose sight of the way the game is balanced - you can do everything... poorly, as compared to characters that specialize and fill their niche. Now, if you only have two or three players... you might need to multiclass just to have the capabilities, but if you have four or more players in your group, multiclassing really isn't necessary at all and will ultimately leave your character less effective despite the extra capabilities.


Starfinder Superscriber

I would say that individual flexibility is slightly more important in society play, since you can never be 100% sure what your group is going to look like. You certainly shouldn't try to do 'everything' (and end up sucking at all of it), but being able to competently fill 2 or 3 roles might be more useful long term in that setting.


pithica42 wrote:
I would say that individual flexibility is slightly more important in society play, since you can never be 100% sure what your group is going to look like. You certainly shouldn't try to do 'everything' (and end up sucking at all of it), but being able to competently fill 2 or 3 roles might be more useful long term in that setting.

Well.. ok fair enough, I've never done any Society play so I can't exactly speak to that.

My group tends to try and balance each other's roles rather than act like an armies of one since we're all friends and tend to bound ideas off each other outside of the game. If there's a glaring hole, we fill it with an NPC, but so far in Starfinder, that hasn't really happened yet. The only major missing role is Mystic, but we filled that gap with the Mechanic pumping up Medicine and carrying a nightarch needler (which does no damage on it's own unlike the standard needler) filled with healing serum - which our technomancer can craft.


Where do you see that the nightarch needler doesn't do damage? It lists piercing damage in the weapon table and doesn't refute that in the weapon description.


huh - you're right, it does list damage. When the player mentioned that, I looked it up on an online source since I didn't have the PW book in front of me. Clearly that source was in error. Hm, too bad. We'd talked about homebrewing a feat that requires a Medicine check as well as an attack roll and the target to have a reaction available to make themselves temporarily flatfooted for the purposes of this attack, that would allow a needler to do no damage. I guess we'll have to fall back on that.


If your multi-classing then you are wanting to play something other then what is in the book. You are not playing the base classes your mixing them and playing something else. My table has a purest at my table who likes to roll play. And says i am a retard for choosing to multy-classing. I am making my character into a neo-paladin. I got tired of him calling my character in charater a mystic which he does not consider himselfit was like calling a devout priest a witch because they both can use granted power. Not a pathfinder witch and priest but the witch burning 1800s version.

Have a goal in mind. Mine is a pseudo Paladin. I may take a couple more dips to pull it off. Who knows but i do know that with my base class is not what my character is its the combination of the classes that make my character. Sure i can not compete with a purist mystic healer but a purist mystic healer cant stand up to the sorta outright damage my character or be used the way my one dip of soldier allows my character to be used.

As for the soldier technomancer who is not happy with his choice your not playing your classes your something else. And if you really can not take it anymore your character can always visit the brainolizer and have that youthful mistake erased and replaced with another level of technomancer.

Well i rambled on long enough.


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ghostunderasheet wrote:
And says i am a retard for choosing to multy-classing.

If he's calling you that, then he's not someone that you want to be playing with.

You play what you want to play. If it works out, great. If it doesn't, make a new character.

You don't have to tolerate getting insulted on playing a game within the rules your own way.

Paizo Employee Starfinder Design Lead

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Dracomicron wrote:
You play what you want to play. If it works out, great. If it doesn't, make a new character.

Or pay for a mnemonic editor and change the existing character.

But also yes--there's no need to game with insulting or abusive people.


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Ohh it is okay I call him a rules lawyer and roll player all the time. And we are a dysfunctional group of introverts that need the social interaction. Even if it is with ourselves.


OK, I've basically compared and contrasted both versions of the same character:
* Sd01/Op02/Tm03
* Op3/Tm03

Findings:
* 1 HP difference is nothing.
* The Solder option gives an extra +1 to Fortitude Save; Nada.
* The additional skill ranks are enough to matter.
* Gains in Heavy Armor, Heavy Weapons, Long arms, and 2 more feats not being used in pursuit of Soldier combat damage are effectively possible, but very expensive.

If play-style is heavily combat intensive against foes that require a few more points of AC and damage, it may be a good play. But going pure Technomancer for cutting-edge combat spells may be better.

In balanced play the Op03-Tm03 build seems to be a good, flexible...and fun.. build.

Wayfinders

Out of curiosity, what Soldier spec did you take? I could see Sharpshooter actually making a difference in that build.

My new SFS dwarf is going

Xenoarchaeologist theme

Operative (Explorer) 1
Mystic (Star Shaman) 1
Soldier (Sharpshooter) 1 -> Versatile Specialization using the dwarf racial
Operative 2
Mystic 2
Operative 3
Mystic 3+

starting with the following stats:

Str 10
Dex 18
Con 12
Int 13
Wis 14
Cha 10

(She has an extra 2 build points from a Society boon)

I realize that this is a bit of an unconventional build, but here are my reasons:

Explorer spec uses Survival, a Wisdom-based skill, which synergizes with level-up bonuses to buff Mystic spells. At Operative 2 she gets Uncanny Mobility, which is handy for tough scrapes. At Operative level 3 she gets bonus move (making up for slow dwarf movement) and +1d8 trick attacks, which allows her to keep up with pistols for a little longer.

Sharpshooter Soldier lets me use any weapon with specialization, as dwarves automatically get basic & advanced melee weapon specialization at character level 3 and this qualifies her for Versatile Specialization in ranged weapons. The attack bonus vs. cover helps make up for the fact that the character has ranks in two different 3/4 BAB classes.

The Star Shaman Mystic for the bulk of the character levels gives utility. She's a great pilot, and her spells are largely either attack roll powers (to use her high Dex), healing, or utility stuff that I find gets used in Society adventures all the time like Share Language. Also Mystic fills almost the exact hole in Class skills left by the Operative levels. Low staring Wisdom won't be an issue if I don't use spells that require saving throws and throw in regular level upgrades.

Not a very directed build, but capable of filling almost any hole in a Society party, and the heavy investment in Dexterity, aka the most powerful Attribute, plasters over so many problems.

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