Multiclassing 101?


Advice


So far my experience in this game has been pure monoclassing. How well does multiclassing play out in this game, as I have many questions about it.

1) When multi classing how do you split it? Do you go evenly, or is it more dominant/side class. E.G so-and-so has solarion 5 and picked up soldier 1 for that blitz bonus?

2) Any special notes on class match-ups? E.G like types only, such as combat with combat (Like the soldier solarion above) and support with support (like a technomancer mechanic), or can you mix and match anything?


1. Seems like most people favor a little dip for proficiencies, or keying Resolve off a different stat.

2. You can mix and match whatever you'd like. Doesn't mean you should, but you certainly can.


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So going outside of the box in any way, multi-classing or even archtypes, is a question of trade-offs. How well that plays out in the game is going to vary widely on what you're hoping to get out of the character, who you're playing with, and what level the game ends. You can probably tack on a few other statements to that, but those 3 are the big ones in my book. Especially "what level the game ends".

In addition to what Pantshandshake said:

1) What are you willing to trade-off and what do you hope to gain? There is no specific answer here without more specific details. Common practice is to dip into a class for a level 1 bonus (Soldier is commonly abused) or dip out of a class at level 3 for weapon specialization (Soldier is common for this too). Beyond that we circle back to trade-offs, your specific vision for the character, and campaign longevity.

2) What's your motive behind this question? Are you asking if pairing physical classes together makes a more powerful whole or if two supports make a more powerful character? I think the answer to that is, no. Even taking the common dip of Soldier 1 and Solarian X doesn't necessarily make a more powerful character in the long run. It's just different from straight Solarian. Combining Envoy and Mystic doesn't necessarily make a stronger support character, but it could add more flexibility and options. Are those options worth it? That's entirely personal choice. Is stronger than just sticking with a single class? Maybe in the short-term but that's more dubious in the long-term. Some classes have better capstones (if playing to 20) or really solid mid-tier perks. Multi-classing delays, or even excludes, the use of that.


In my experience, and explained above, proficiencies and resolve make up any level 1 "dip" but I enjoy picking and choosing some of the best things that make up certain classes. One such multiclass character I've had great results with was an Envoy 1, Mechanic 3, Envoy 5 (6 total), Solarian 1, Soldier 1, w/e:
The 1st level of Envoy is to enjoy Get Em and tie your resolve to charisma. The 3 levels in Mechanic will give you a drone that can use heavy weapons and weapon specialization. The rest of the envoy levels are to get what you want and Improved Get Em with the end result being both you and your drone wielding heavy weapons and spraying the battlefield with reliable damage while buffing the team. You'll need Bodyguard and In Harm's Way feats in order to keep your 30hp drone alive later on, but it's a fun little fire support tool that you don't sacrifice much to get. The odd Solarian level is just to boost your BAB, saves, give you +1 AC from solar armor, and +1 damage from photon.
The soldier level gives you BAB, saves, proficiencies, and a style.

Possibly a good choice if you ever get there is grabbing some technomancer levels after you get level 6 spells as a Mystic. You aren't actually losing caster level, it opens up an entirely new spell list to utilize spell gems with, and you don't really get that much from the Mystic 20th level capstone.


Over 9000 wrote:

In my experience, and explained above, proficiencies and resolve make up any level 1 "dip" but I enjoy picking and choosing some of the best things that make up certain classes. One such multiclass character I've had great results with was an Envoy 1, Mechanic 3, Envoy 5 (6 total), Solarian 1, Soldier X:

The 1st level of Envoy is to enjoy Get Em and tie your resolve to charisma. The 3 levels in Mechanic will give you a drone that can use heavy weapons and weapon specialization. The rest of the envoy levels are to get what you want and Improved Get Em with the end result being both you and your drone wielding heavy weapons and spraying the battlefield with reliable damage while buffing the team. You'll need Bodyguard and In Harm's Way feats in order to keep your 30hp drone alive later on, but it's a fun little fire support tool that you don't sacrifice much to get.

I don't wanna come off as rude, but i don't think your Drone is gonna be relevant at all past some point as he'll cap around 7-8 total bonus to hit, and that inclure Improved Get'em bonus. Imo by trying to have what's best about everyclass you'll end up having nothing. A dip or two for first level abilities are alright, but i think your Build spread too much.


You only need to target grid intersections with explode Heavy Weapons, and therefor to hit is completely irrelevant.


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Over 9000 wrote:
You only need to target grid intersections with Heavy Weapons, and therefor AC is completely irrelevant.

Oh yeah right my bad sorry! Not all heavy weapon are DC based, but enough are yeah so you could make it work and since those weapon DC scale of item level, you drone attack would stay relevant. I'm curious to see how it would work, it seems interesting. You got bodyguard Your Drone would be incredibly weak to AOE. Your character would have God-like Base save at level 20. Something like Fort +13, Ref +11 and Will +15 if you go Envoy 6/Mechanic 3/Solarian 1/Soldier 9.

One more question though, why make your Key Stats Charisma? Dex seems like a better choice for better Weapon DCs, initiative and Ac?


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It is tricky, but as long as you have a schtick, and all aspects of your build support that schtick, then you'll do okay.

I have a ysoki sniper build that is Sharpshooter Soldier 3, Exocortex Mechanic X that uses Overcharge to buff the laser damage of the Diaspora Sniper Rifle.

Another sniper idea is to go some form of Sharpshooter Soldier/Ghost Operative that gets debilitating tricks on powerful sniper hits.

I'm also working on a build that goes

Solarian 3
Alternate Envoy and Solarian levels until Solarian 9/Envoy 7
Solarian X

And what this does is mitigates the damage in going full Charisma for a Solarian, because you get a bunch of other good Charisma stuff from your Envoy levels. It (eventually) sucks for saving throw DCs, but works really well, between Expertise and Sidereal Influence, for Skill-based checks, like Intimidation builds, Unfriendly Fire, etc. while still maintaining some melee effectiveness.

Basically, look for classes that have overlapping, yet still stacking, abilities, and be prepared to give up the highest level abilities in each class, in order to maximize that one area.


Algarik wrote:
Over 9000 wrote:
You only need to target grid intersections with Heavy Weapons, and therefor AC is completely irrelevant.

Oh yeah right my bad sorry! Not all heavy weapon are DC based, but enough are yeah so you could make it work and since those weapon DC scale of item level, you drone attack would stay relevant. I'm curious to see how it would work, it seems interesting. You got bodyguard Your Drone would be incredibly weak to AOE. Your character would have God-like Base save at level 20. Something like Fort +13, Ref +11 and Will +15 if you go Envoy 6/Mechanic 3/Solarian 1/Soldier 9.

One more question though, why make your Key Stats Charisma? Dex seems like a better choice for better Weapon DCs, initiative and Ac?

You have the right idea to maybe pick soldier first and go with dex with proficiencies, but I find that with heavy armor and using explode heavy weapons (which I did not specify earlier, sorry) you don't need a very high dexterity (just enough for max dex on heavy armor), and you'll gain a lot more out of your other Envoy abilities and skills utilizing a full Charisma. The build I presented probably isn't very optimized, but it emphasizes getting the drone early when it is really good, and then getting your 6 levels of envoy followed by pretty much whatever you want. The only important thing is 3 levels of mechanic, and 6 levels of envoy. Any good combination of those is probably doing pretty well but your later levels might just be keeping your drone's HP, AC, and saves at decent levels so it doesn't just explode when something looks at it.


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Starfinder Superscriber

Here is a list of various dips that I've been looking at that I think may be worth the cost for some builds in some games. There are all the usual caveats about skill bonuses not stacking, and worrying about getting Weapon Spec at 3, and effects on caster level and BAB. I think, unfortunately, most of these don't work most of the time because of all that. But I think they can work, especially if you start at higher level where you don't necessarily have to feel the pain, and especially if you take dips that either shore up a class's weakness or compliment their strengths (though, because of insight bonuses not stacking, and so much being tied to class level, this is hard).

Envoy 1 - Get'em (+1 to attacks as move action for your group). +1d6 Insight to Sense motive and one other skill. Lots of skills. Can make Cha your primary for Resolve if you want to play a 'face'.

Envoy 6 - Improved Get'em (+2 to attacks as a move action for your group). 1d6+1 Insight to Sense motive and 2 other skills, with an expertise talent in one of those skills. Lots of skills. Two other Improvisations (several of which are decent even if you don't go higher as an Envoy). Can make Cha your primary for Resolve if you want to play a 'face'.

Drone Mechanic 3 - Heavy Weapon (explode) mobile turret. Overload. A Mechanic Trick. Can make Int your primary for resolve if you want to play a knowledge-y soldier or something (that's weird, but I like weird).

Mechanic 7 - Miracle Worker. Remote Hack. Several Mechanic tricks. Exos get Heavy Weapon Prof. Drones get a slightly more survivable drone than going Mech 3.

Star Shaman Mystic 1 - Walk the Void (no need to breath in space and a fly speed, makes Zero-G potentially easier). Mystic Spells as spell ampules.

Operative 1 - Get nearly all the skills as class skills. +1 Insight to all skill checks and init. 2 Skill Focus feats. A mess of skill points. Set Dex as Primary stat for Resolve.

Operative 3 - As operative 1, but +2 Insight to all skill checks and Init. Add Evasion and Weapon prof/spec in Sniper weapons. Also get a bonus combat feat or an operative exploit.

Armor Solarian 1 - +1 to AC. +1 Insight to damage (photon mode).

Blitz Soldier 1 - Fleet + Improved Init + Heavy Armor Prof + all the weapon profs. STR or DEX as primary for Resolve.

Various Soldier 3 - Bonus Combat feat, Heavy Armor Prof. All Weapons and Specializations. Gear Boost. STR or DEX as primary for Resolve.

Technomancer 3 - Spell Focus. Increases CL. Technomancer Spell Ampules. A Magic Hack (several of which don't specify only working on TM spells, so could be used on Mystic spells, like using Robot Influence so your [Mind Affecting] Mystic Spells can work on robots)


Over 9000 wrote:


You have the right idea to maybe pick soldier first and go with dex with proficiencies, but I find that with heavy armor and using explode heavy weapons (which I did not specify earlier, sorry) you don't need a very high dexterity (just enough for max dex on heavy armor), and you'll gain a lot more out of your other Envoy abilities and skills utilizing a full Charisma. The build I presented probably isn't very optimized, but it emphasizes getting the drone early when it is really good, and then getting your 6 levels of envoy followed by pretty much whatever you want. The only important thing is 3 levels of mechanic, and 6 levels of envoy. Any good combination of those is probably doing pretty well but your later levels might just be keeping your drone's HP, AC, and saves at decent levels so it doesn't just explode when something looks at it.

No worries i should had known as i definetly knew Reflex based weapon were a thing! :P

I'm at work at the moment, but i came with an idea of Envoy 12/Mechanic 7/Soldier 1. I'll work on it and post it when i'm done!


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Dracomicron wrote:

It is tricky, but as long as you have a schtick, and all aspects of your build support that schtick, then you'll do okay.

-snip-

Basically, look for classes that have overlapping, yet still stacking, abilities, and be prepared to give up the highest level abilities in each class, in order to maximize that one area.

pithica42 wrote:

Here is a list of various dips that I've been looking at that I think may be worth the cost for some builds in some games. There are all the usual caveats about skill bonuses not stacking, and worrying about getting Weapon Spec at 3, and effects on caster level and BAB. I think, unfortunately, most of these don't work most of the time because of all that. But I think they can work, especially if you start at higher level where you don't necessarily have to feel the pain, and especially if you take dips that either shore up a class's weakness or compliment their strengths (though, because of insight bonuses not stacking, and so much being tied to class level, this is hard).

-Snip-

Thank you so much for the help. That was the kind of stuff I was hoping to see. While I asked this in a general sense, the specific reason was that I was thinking about doing a one-shot with some pregen characters and was wondering how well the game supports "flavor first" character design so my players can have wacky character concepts to play as instead of soldier mcbadass #14.

Shadow Lodge

Soldier sharpshooter 1 is a great dip For anyone that shoots. There's almost guaranteed to be cover so its almost like a +2 or +3 to hit.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Re: Envoy/Mystic

Inspiring Boost to restore stamina points + mystic cure to restore hit points can be really useful for the party's staying power.

It's probably "best" (for healing damage) to put at least 6 levels in envoy (to also pick up Clever Improvisations) to be able to restore more stamina; mystic cure already allows you to transfer the caster's hit points in addition to the spell healing. Also, because there are hardly any options to restore stamina outside of spending a resolve point and resting 10 minutes.

Of course, you can get a similar benefit from a single-classed envoy that takes Connection Inkling (selecting mystic cure as the 1st-level spell), just with fewer uses per day for healing hit point damage (and not as much utility from other spells).


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Algarik wrote:
I'm at work at the moment, but i came with an idea of Envoy 12/Mechanic 7/Soldier 1. I'll work on it and post it when i'm done!

If you're taking 7 levels in mechanic, you might as well go for 8 to pick up Improved Overcharge. Especially if the character is "geared" toward combat damage.

Shadow Lodge

Dragonchess Player wrote:

Re: Envoy/Mystic

Inspiring Boost to restore stamina points + mystic cure to restore hit points can be really useful for the party's staying power.

I don't think this is the case. I haven't tried it, but even at full on envoy inspiring boost scales badly against the damage your party is taking. Its almost never going to be enough to keep you from having to rest, and rest yes/no is most of the use of staminia.

I think a dedicated healer in starfinder would have a really high constitution and just not worry about the staminia pool : heal people back to nearly full HP by using your own HP Pool and let your staminia take any hits you take till you can run around the corner and hide.


Multiclassing is a lot of numbers to deal with @-@, but then again, I'm doing it all at once by generating a high-level character. Right now I'm using the Awesomenauts as my inspiration as their zany-saturday morning show style seems right at home with the feel of starfinder.

Going to make my favorite (and main) Raelynn as a soldier 9/operative 7. Note that i'm going to accurate emulation of her abilities/role in her respective game over making the most optimal build.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Dragonchess Player wrote:

Re: Envoy/Mystic

Inspiring Boost to restore stamina points + mystic cure to restore hit points can be really useful for the party's staying power.

I don't think this is the case. I haven't tried it, but even at full on envoy inspiring boost scales badly against the damage your party is taking. Its almost never going to be enough to keep you from having to rest, and rest yes/no is most of the use of staminia.

I think a dedicated healer in starfinder would have a really high constitution and just not worry about the staminia pool : heal people back to nearly full HP by using your own HP Pool and let your staminia take any hits you take till you can run around the corner and hide.

Some groups use Resolve more frequently than others; even if they only need one less rest period per day, that may be "worth it" to them. Also, there are occasionally situations where you don't always have the luxury of a 10 minute rest to refresh the stamina pool.

Even with the restrictions on Inspiring Boost ("significant enemy", must be used on the next action after the hit) and in groups that don't burn through a lot of Resolve, shoring up stamina can help reduce the resources (spell slots, healing serums, etc.) needed to keep the other party members functioning. If one of your character's allies can take even one more hit before your character needs to sacrifice their own hit points and "run around the corner and hide," that's one more round of combat where they are doing something useful. Just like "in-combat healing" in Pathfinder, it may not usually be the "best" choice of actions, but sometimes it is.

Shadow Lodge

But there's an opportunity cost for your standard action healing someone up, its not dropping the guy any faster which also drops the damage that the party takes.

Sovereign Court

Yeah, but if keeping that other person up means that they can do significantly more damage than what you could have achieved, then that would be a better use of your standard.

Shadow Lodge

Ellias Aubec wrote:
Yeah, but if keeping that other person up means that they can do significantly more damage than what you could have achieved, then that would be a better use of your standard.

The Envoys healing can't do that.

The mystic can if her burns HP.


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BigNorseWolf wrote:
Ellias Aubec wrote:
Yeah, but if keeping that other person up means that they can do significantly more damage than what you could have achieved, then that would be a better use of your standard.

The Envoys healing can't do that.

The mystic can if her burns HP.

I've seen Envoy's Stamina healing prevent a knockout numerous times. I don't think it's fair to say that it "can't" keep someone up.

I know that, when I'm up front in tank mode and some pronking walruses are spearing me with their tusks, I never say no to an extra 10 stamina.


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Dragonchess Player wrote:
If you're taking 7 levels in mechanic, you might as well go for 8 to pick up Improved Overcharge. Especially if the character is "geared" toward combat damage.

I'll take a look, my build isn't finished yet, i just came back from a big LARP week-end, but thanks for the tips.

Dacromicron wrote:

I've seen Envoy's Stamina healing prevent a knockout numerous times. I don't think it's fair to say that it "can't" keep someone up.

I know that, when I'm up front in tank mode and some pronking walruses are spearing me with their tusks, I never say no to an extra 10 stamina.

I think both BigNorseWolf are both right to some extend and that might have to do with the fact that inspiring boost scaling isn't properly balanced as it scale way worse than damage.

Inspiring boost healing around 5-6 point of stamina at level 1 and attack deal around 1d4+1(3.5 avg) at that level, that's pretty good as it heal an average of 1.7 attack.

At level 20, inspiring boost heals for 45-46 stamina. If i look at the CR20 Space Goblin monark from the Core Rulebook, he can hit for 13d6+22(67.5), which mean inspiring boost heals for about 0.68 attack. Bear in mind that this is a really rough estimate as it only takes 1 attack into consideration and i threw crit out of the calculation.

To properly scale i think Inspiring boost should heal for 3xlevel + Charisma, or if we want to keep Charima relevant, it should scales something like LVL x 2 + Charisma x2 around level 10 and Levelx2 + Charisma x 3 around level 15-20.

That being said, even if combat healing isn't the best thing there is, there's still moment where it can save your tank's ass. Beside, healing is garanteed, damage is not. If you bet your tank's life on a single shot with 50-60% accuracy you're making a risky gamble.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Solar Armor Solarian / Operative looks like it can work.

Solarian doesn’t have a really good class feature giving an Insight bonus. The Operative’s Edge will give that to all skills. The problem is the more levels of Solarian you take, the further behind your Operative’s Edge is.

You also have the problem that the increased full attacks are based on your level in a single class. Multiclassing these two will delay the triple attack.

I suspect that a lot of the Starfinder multiclassing will,be dipping because your advancement is so tightly tied to your highest class level.


Finally had time to finish that build as promised:

Race: Anything. (Stats assume Human)
Theme: Anything. (Stats assume odd point into Str)

LVL 1 Attributes:
Str: 11
Dex: 16
Con: 10
int: 10
Wis: 10
Cha: 16

LVL 5 Attributes:
Str: 11
Dex: 18+2
Con: 12
int: 10
Wis: 12
Cha: 18

LVL 10 Attributes:
Str: 11
Dex: 19+4
Con: 14
int: 12
Wis: 14
Cha: 18+2

LVL 15 Attributes:
Str: 11
Dex: 20+6
Con: 16+2
int: 12
Wis: 16
Cha: 19+2

LVL 20 Attributes:
Str: 11
Dex: 20+6
Con: 18+2
int: 14
Wis: 18
Cha: 20+2

Feats and Special Abilities:
1 - Envoy 1; Envoy Improvisation (Get'Em), Expertise 1d6, Skill Expertise (Intimidate), Feat: Bodyguard
2 - Soldier1 ; Primary Fighting Style (Blitz), Primary Fighting Technique (Rapid Response)
3 - Mechanic 1 ; Artificial Intelligence (Drone), Bypass +1, Custom Rig Feat: In harm's way
4 - Mechanic 2 ; Mechanic trick (Overclocking)
5 - Mechanic 3 ; Overload, Weapon Specialization, Feat: Versatile Specialization
6 - Envoy 2 ; Envoy Improvisation (dispiriting taunt)
7 - Envoy 3 ; Expertise Talent (Rattling Presence), Feat: Deadly Aim
8 - Envoy 4 ; Envoy Improvisation (Quick dispiriting taunt)
9 - Envoy 5 ; Expertise 1d6+1, Skill expertise (Diplomacy) Feat: Kip Up
10 - Envoy 6 ; Envoy Improvisation (Improved Get'em)
11 - Envoy 7 ; Expertise talent (Slick Customer) feat: Improved Initiative
12 - Envoy 8 ; Envoy Improvisation (Don't quit)
13 - Envoy 9 ; Expertise 1d6+2, Skill Expertise (Bluff) Feat: Great Fortitude
15 - Envoy 11 ; Envoy Improvisation (Convincing Liar) Feat: Iron Will
16 - Envoy 12 ; Expertise Talent (Improved Hurry)
17 - Mechanic 4; Mechanic Trick (Repair Drone) Feat: Lightning Reflexes
18 - Mechanic 5; Bypass +2, Remote Hack
19 - Mechanic 6; Mechanic trick (Visual Data Processor) Feat: Improved Iron Will
20 - Mechanic 7; Expert Rig, Miracle Worker/Day

Skills: Max Intimidate, Bluff, Diplomacy, Engineering, Computer, perception, the rest does not matter much.

Drone (Hover Drone):
1 - Basic Mods, Limited Ai, Master Control, Skill unit (Acrobatics). Mods:Weapon Mount Feat: Lightning Reflexe
3 - Mod:Weapon Proficiency(Heavy Weapon) Feat: Versatile Specialisation
5 - Mod: Resistance (Fire)
6 - Feat: Deadly aim
7 - Expert AI, Mod: Resistance (Electricity)

This build ends up doing what most envoys will end up doing, it’s only gonna miss some improvisation option. It’s gonna be way worse in the skill department though.

BBA 15 is perfectly fine, especially for a Reflex weapon user.
Its saves are really good:

Fort: +23 Ref: +23 Will: +18 (Including MK5 Resistance ring)

The Drone is made of paper thought, with an AC of 21, the Envoy will probably have to spend a lot of reaction to tank it, and that means a lot of free damage, shouldn’t be a problem with melee enemies thought, as the drone can fly. The drone gets an ''okay'' Reflex saves of +11 and some minor energy resistance (7) to the two most common energies. Finally, with an hp pool of 70 at level 20, it should be able to take a hit without dying, but it won't take two.

I also feel like an int version of this build ditching Dispiriting taunt for something else, could work nicely as the main hacker thanks to envoy expertise boost.

Finally i didn't take an 8th level of Mechanics as overload weapon is its own standard action and this build already uses all its action on Envoy abilities. Although that made me think of a Mechanic 19/Soldier(Blitz) 1 build and that would make for a scary sniper/Reflex Weapon gunner with those extra 6d6!


I am doing great with my multi-class mystic healer/ blitz soldier combo. So far it is just a dip soldier but i am considering taking it up to 3rd level. I took an archtype to try it out when i reached a level that i could so you could say I am not even a healer anymore, "I am Valorous the battle medic chosen of phasma! NOW FEAR MY GODDESS' DIVINE WRATH YOU UNDEAD ABOMINATIONS!". Though I am a take a dip in solarian for that nifty aura armor and just veiw it as a paladin's aura and take two levelsof that soi can take the gravitational hold revelation. So i can just tell anyone that tries to ambush while in the middle of combat tosit thier butts back down. I may take those as my next two levels.


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ghostunderasheet wrote:
I am doing great with my multi-class mystic healer/ blitz soldier combo. So far it is just a dip soldier but i am considering taking it up to 3rd level. I took an archtype to try it out when i reached a level that i could so you could say I am not even a healer anymore, "I am Valorous the battle medic chosen of phasma! NOW FEAR MY GODDESS' DIVINE WRATH YOU UNDEAD ABOMINATIONS!". Though I am a take a dip in solarian for that nifty aura armor and just veiw it as a paladin's aura and take two levelsof that soi can take the gravitational hold revelation. So i can just tell anyone that tries to ambush while in the middle of combat tosit thier butts back down. I may take those as my next two levels.

Although i wouldn't feel like delaying casting progression, i don't think one can ever go wrong with a Blitz Soldier Dip, it's so stupidly strong. You get a bunch of weapon feat, heavy armor proficiency, all that would be worthwhile on it's own, but on top of this you get +4 non typed initiative bonus and a +10 feet land speed enhancement, that's crazy.

Edit: Oh and i forgot, you get to make your Resolve scale of Strength which is awesome for Solarian or Dexterity which is awesome for everyone else as Dexterity is overpowered in this game.

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