Stranglers, bad-touches, and what counts as "sneak damage"


Rules Questions


For reference, I'm using Hero Lab.

So my Society Strangler has reached level two. Go team. And I'm struggling to work out a concise feat list to use Martial Flexibility on. And I'm wondering whether or not a couple feats work or not with the Strangler's weird "sneak attack only when grappling" thing:

>Sap Adept: When dealing non-lethal damage, add +1 to each sneak damage die.
>Sap Master: When dealing non-lethal damage to someone flat-footed, double the sneak damage amount.
>Accomplished Sneak Attacker: add one extra 1d6 to sneak damage, but only if sneak die do not total equal to half your level.

If not, why not, since the Strangler's sneak attack damage is still sneak attack damage, even if it's specialized to grappling people.


1. Only if you gained the sneak attack class feature by taking a level of, e.g., rogue. A strangler doesn't have the sneak attack class feature, which is a prerequisite for sap adept. It would work after that, though.
2. See 1.
3. See 1.


But he deals sneak attack damage while maintaining a grapple.

The Concordance

You qualify for Sap Adept and Sap Master (when your die is +3d6) but can never actually use them because you are not dealing bludgeoning, nonlethal damage. You are doing un typed precision damage. Your strangle does not count as bludgeoning, as it isn’t explicitly described as bludgeoning.

You do not qualify for Accomplished Sneak Attacker until you take levels in a class that rants you the Sneak Attack class feature (which Strangle doesn’t count as, as it isn’t explicitly called out as counting.


Another Problem is that you can only use Sap Master against opponents that are Flat Footed. Pinned isn't Flatfooted. To make opponents Flatfooted, you have to take something like Shatter Defenses and Cornudgeon Smash. A problem with your character is that Stranglers don't get Unarmed Strike, so you need some other way of doing Bludgeoning Damage. I have some ideas, but answer me, Spermy, have you adventured with your character past level 2? Actually, the fact that you don't get Unarmed Strike is a heck of a thing: the fact that you don't get Unarmed Strike means you don't have the Improved Unarmed Strike Feat. And without the IUS Feat, you can't take Improved Grapple. But you get a special ability that depends upon Grappling and Pinning? Stranglers suck!

ShieldLawrence wrote:
you are not dealing bludgeoning, nonlethal damage.

He's doing Grappling Damage, isn't he? That's normally Bludgeoning, and it can be nonlethal. I think he's good there.

blahpers wrote:
Only if you gained the sneak attack class feature by taking a level of, e.g., rogue. A strangler doesn't have the sneak attack class feature, which is a prerequisite for sap adept. It would work after that, though.

That is a subtle point! Stranglers get +1d6 Sneak Attack Damage when they achieve a Pin, but that is not the same thing as the Sneak Attack Damage Class Feature.

Snakebite Striker Brawler has the Sneak Attack Class Feature, though. I was just looking at the 2 Archetypes. I'm pretty sure he can take both: be a Snakebite-Strangler. The OP is already level 2, but if he hasn't adventured yet as a level 2 PFS Character, he can just take the 2nd Archetype without retraining.

That being said, taking levels in Rogue or something is not bad advice.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:


Snakebite Striker Brawler has the Sneak Attack Class Feature, though. I was just looking at the 2 Archetypes. I'm pretty sure he can take both: be a Snakebite-Strangler. The OP is already level 2, but if he hasn't adventured yet as a level 2 PFS Character, he can just take the 2nd Archetype without retraining.

You can take both and I was going to suggest it myself until I noticed that Snakebite Striker replaces Martial Flexibility with sneak attack, making the whole thing kind of moot.


Spermy The Cat wrote:
But he deals sneak attack damage while maintaining a grapple.

Doesn't matter. The prerequisite for the feats isn't "can deal sneak attack damage"--it's "sneak attack class feature". Strangler doesn't get that class feature.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Another Problem is that you can only use Sap Master against opponents that are Flat Footed. Pinned isn't Flatfooted. To make opponents Flatfooted, you have to take something like Shatter Defenses and Cornudgeon Smash. A problem with your character is that Stranglers don't get Unarmed Strike, so you need some other way of doing Bludgeoning Damage. I have some ideas, but answer me, Spermy, have you adventured with your character past level 2? Actually, the fact that you don't get Unarmed Strike is a heck of a thing: the fact that you don't get Unarmed Strike means you don't have the Improved Unarmed Strike Feat. And without the IUS Feat, you can't take Improved Grapple. But you get a special ability that depends upon Grappling and Pinning? Stranglers suck!

ShieldLawrence wrote:
you are not dealing bludgeoning, nonlethal damage.

He's doing Grappling Damage, isn't he? That's normally Bludgeoning, and it can be nonlethal. I think he's good there.

blahpers wrote:
Only if you gained the sneak attack class feature by taking a level of, e.g., rogue. A strangler doesn't have the sneak attack class feature, which is a prerequisite for sap adept. It would work after that, though.

That is a subtle point! Stranglers get +1d6 Sneak Attack Damage when they achieve a Pin, but that is not the same thing as the Sneak Attack Damage Class Feature.

Snakebite Striker Brawler has the Sneak Attack Class Feature, though. I was just looking at the 2 Archetypes. I'm pretty sure he can take both: be a Snakebite-Strangler. The OP is already level 2, but if he hasn't adventured yet as a level 2 PFS Character, he can just take the 2nd Archetype without retraining.

That being said, taking levels in Rogue or something is not bad advice.

That would work! Saves you from having to multiclass.


Scott, my character has only just last month reached level two, and have not taken him out since because the party composition in the later sessions would have suffered for it.

At level one, he has IUS as his level one feat, and was using Martial Flexibility for Improved Grapple. Now that he's level two, his bonus feat is improved grapple.


So taking up Snakebite would allow me to utilize Sap adept and the other stuff, huh? Alright, I can do that. Shame about the loss of Martial Flexibility, though.


Spermy The Cat wrote:
Scott, my character has only just last month reached level two, and have not taken him out since because the party composition in the later sessions would have suffered for it.

Okay, that's some good news. For as long as your character is level 1 in Pathfinder Society, you can make any changes you want: Feats, archetype, class, even race, and nobody cares. Since you have earned 0 experience points since levelling up, you can make changes.

Spermy The Cat wrote:
So taking up Snakebite would allow me to utilize Sap adept and the other stuff, huh?

Yes. You can have both the Snakebite Striker and Strangler Archetypes at the same time.

Spermy The Cat wrote:
At level one, he has IUS as his level one feat, and was using Martial Flexibility for Improved Grapple. Now that he's level two, his bonus feat is improved grapple.

Another option would be for level 2, take a level in Monk, getting Unarmed Strike Damage 1d6, Improved Unarmed Strike, and taking Improved Grapple for your Monk Bonus Feat. That would leave your level 1 Feat open for taking something else. Compared with taking a level in Brawler, you lose 1 hp and +1 BAB, but you will gain +1.5 Damage, +2 on all your Saves as opposed to +1Fort/+1Reflex for a Level 2 Brawler. There is another reason to take some levels in Monk. Since you sacrificed Brawler Unarmed Strike to be a Strangler, your character does not have any other way to increase his Base Unarmed Strike Damage. If you take 3 levels in Monk, you might take the Monastic Legacy Feat, which would allow half of your nonmonk levels count as Monk levels for the purposes of improving your Unarmed Strike Damage. How would you feel about losing the Strangler Archetype? It's the Strangler Archetype that is making you lose Brawler Unarmed Strike?

That should be enough for now. I have an idea about how to lock in Sneak Attack Damage for Sap feats and other means if you want to hear them. Also, what is your character's Race, and how would you feel about changing it?


I intend to keep this guy as a pure brawler. I don't like to multiclass, I'm not smart enough to keep track of everything.


Gah, misfired. I intend to keep the strangled archetype, but sure, I'd like what you got. Race is half-orc.

The Concordance

Scott Wilhelm wrote:


ShieldLawrence wrote:
you are not dealing bludgeoning, nonlethal damage.

He's doing Grappling Damage, isn't he? That's normally Bludgeoning, and it can be nonlethal. I think he's good there.

“Grappling Damage” doesn’t exist. When you grapple to damage, you are dealing damage as if with your US or natural attack. When a Strangler pins, they are getting bonus untyped damage not associated with the damage types of your US or natural attack. The distinction matters. So only when the Strangler grapples to damage could they make use of something that requires bludgeoning damage.

I realize after looking st the class feature again that they get the bonus Sneak Attack damage on a grapple to damage or a grapple to pin. I originally stated Sap Adept would never work but now I see that it works when the strangler takes the “damage” option on grapples.


I wrote:
Yes. You can have both the Snakebite Striker and Strangler Archetypes at the same time.

I might have been mistaken. Both Archetypes change your Class Skills. Somebody was saying that is a dealbreaker.

Dark Archive

ShieldLawrence wrote:

You qualify for Sap Adept and Sap Master (when your die is +3d6) but can never actually use them because you are not dealing bludgeoning, nonlethal damage. You are doing un typed precision damage. Your strangle does not count as bludgeoning, as it isn’t explicitly described as bludgeoning.

You do not qualify for Accomplished Sneak Attacker until you take levels in a class that rants you the Sneak Attack class feature (which Strangle doesn’t count as, as it isn’t explicitly called out as counting.

Long story short: Precision damage is of the type the weapon does.

Lots of forum discussions about this. Particularly if the weapon is elemental in source. Look it up. So Sap Adept works perfectly fine to add to sneak attack from unarmed, as well as Sap Master doubling the nonlethal dice...

In order to get the Sneak Attack damage, you MAY need to get class levels that give the actual ability, versus "Strangle" that does "sneak attack" type damage.

Dark Archive

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
I wrote:
Yes. You can have both the Snakebite Striker and Strangler Archetypes at the same time.
I might have been mistaken. Both Archetypes change your Class Skills. Somebody was saying that is a dealbreaker.

Correct, RAW, which is what PFS uses, if they both alter skills in some way (even adding per the FAQ on the subject) then you can't stack them both. So Snakebite striker and strangler are OUT for PFS. Of course, it's a dumb rule that if one class archetype gives you a free skill it stops you from stacking an archetype that alters some other skill (it is still written that way, though, however dumb). And in home games you can do away with whatever dumb rules you don't want to play by.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Stranglers, bad-touches, and what counts as "sneak damage" All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.