The "optical telegraph" and its possible use in Golarion?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


Hey,

So my kids got me this calendar last Christmas where each page is some cool/weird place or thing somewhere in the world. One of the entries last week was about an old signal tower for the Optical telegraph, which was designed by a French fellow named Chappe around the time of the Revolution.

My question is, do you see anyplace in Golarion having a use for something like that? Where/how?

Thanks for your time.

Redblade


Not very much usage in my opinion.

Teleportation magic, the sending spell, and simply message probably cover a lot of communication needs if they're particularly important.


I dunno, I feel like there's always going to be some market for methods that don't need spell casters to operate.


Some market yes, but a chain of semaphore towers? Unlikely, the cost of building, manning, and maintaining them is probably greater than hiring a dozen 1st level wizards or adepts with scrolls of sending and whispering wind as needed. For anything else, carrier pigeons are probably enough.


If you have to rely on scrolls, the cost is going to add up pretty quickly. Even the cheaper version would be 75pg / 25 words per 3 miles even assuming getting the scrolls at cost. And you would have to have enough casters to keep up with demand for the scrolls as well and get the scrolls distributed daily (it would actually almost certainly be cheaper to skip the scroll step and use at least 3rd level casters.) While you wouldn't need towers, you would still need some sort of station for the spell-telegraph operators to wait in, transcribe the message, store their scrolls and send the next message on. Unless you are using higher than 3rd level caster scrolls (or casters) these would have to be every three miles, instead of 5 to 20.

It wouldn't take a whole lot of volume for a semaphore system to be a lot cheaper. I could realistically see most of the more organized nations using this, if they were invented.


I disagree though, because only emergency messages really need the speed of the tower system. Most messages could wait, especially normal civilian correspondence. The wikia indicated that such systems were primarily for government use only (at least in the section about it's use in France).

I'm only proposing magic use for emergency situation, and carrier pigeon for other communication.


Carrier pigeons and similar are going to be easier in RL due to magic too. Speak w/animals and saying "Go west to the big city, where they feed you oranges" or similar gives you more options than the one, which will make it more efficient.


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Between referencing Wikipedia (thanks for the link, btw) and grabbing my "Inner Sea campaign guide," I actually found a prime candidate for making use of such a system:

Grand Duchy of Alkenstar.

As a place within Golarian that is devoid of any functional magic, having a system like that would be very beneficial, until or unless they develop actual technologies like the electric telegraph, or the light-based signal system with powerful light sources and shutters, or even wireless radio, they would need something like this, since magic simply isn't an option.

Of course, most of your standard post would still make more economical sense by horse or carriage relay, but in those emergencies where a message needs to go from one side of the region to the other, this one could do in minutes, what a rider might need days for.


One thing for sure, redundancy is a good idea in a well prepared armed force. Message spell is probably not going to work, the range is pathetic when you are talking about crossing a nation not to mention you need to physically be able to see the next person down the line. Sending is problematic, you need to be familiar with the person/creature you sending to. That's in addition to it being 5th level. Works for a select few but not very well, I'm thinking, even for emergency messaging from castle to castle as it requires a lot of folks knowing (being familiar with) a lot of other folks to really work unless the network is rather small over all. A few well placed assassins could wreak havoc in your 'emergency' net. Much better perhaps as a fast method to use Sending from a field location to a familiar and known tower/person and thereby into the network. Also hinges on that word "familiar" ... I'll just point to all the threads about Teleport and Scry/Fry to see how well that word works as a rule term in general. For the investment Permanent Telepathic Bond might work as well as Sending given no limitation on message size, number of replies back and forth etc.. The network though is obviously going to be even smaller and more intimate. Scrying while using Message could also be used but the issue there is it should be done by a higher level caster (5% chance per caster level of the Message working thru the Scry)

On the other hand as a method in addition to pigeon, fast riders etc., it definitely has its place. Can't have too many methods to scream about the invasion on the western border or other emergency when it comes to that.

Edit: And emergency is very much in the eye of the beholder and how deep their pockets are when it comes to using "slow" vs "fast" vs "fastest" method.


OOTS had a clever version of this with dancing lights. And since that's a cantrip, I could see it being used.


Talon Starblade wrote:

Between referencing Wikipedia (thanks for the link, btw) and grabbing my "Inner Sea campaign guide," I actually found a prime candidate for making use of such a system:

Grand Duchy of Alkenstar.

As a place within Golarian that is devoid of any functional magic, having a system like that would be very beneficial, until or unless they develop actual technologies like the electric telegraph, or the light-based signal system with powerful light sources and shutters, or even wireless radio, they would need something like this, since magic simply isn't an option.

Of course, most of your standard post would still make more economical sense by horse or carriage relay, but in those emergencies where a message needs to go from one side of the region to the other, this one could do in minutes, what a rider might need days for.

Alkenstar might be a candidate, though they may have a system in place for something already. I can't remember if their have been any adventures set in Alkenstar, or any real setting material specific to the area. However, unlike the rest of Golarion they have been shown to be technologically advanced (having invented firearms). Most of Golarion seems to not bother much with technological innovation because of the existence of magic.


The problem with the 'only in emergency' situation is that a lot of your costs are just as fixed as the tower system if you are talking about whispering wind (sending of course is a great emergency system, but it is fairly expensive). You have to have some sort of place for your mages to be every three miles. You have to have distributed at least one scroll to each of these, and you have to keep the mages there to maintain your network. Maintaining low level spellcasters every 3 miles is going to be more expensive then employing signal operators every 10. I would expect that the building cost of 1 tower vs. 3 waystations would be fairly similar.

So the magic system is more expensive and less useful. You can only use it in fairly dire emergencies without replacing your scrolls, and if any of the way stations scrolls run out your system breaks.

The semaphore system on the other hand could be used constantly. Even if it was only used for scattered towns reporting in daily that their were no major problems it would be a great benefit, and you couldn't afford to do that with a scroll based whispering wind.

It is true that semaphore systems never went much beyond government and military uses, with a few cases of commercial application, but they also weren't around that long (since it was replaced by the telegraph) it was a fairly revolutionary concept. If it had been developed a few hundred years earlier, I expect it would have evolved into a much more complex and widely used system.


Golarion is sort of set in a technologically stagnant time period with the exception of a few places. The existence of magic seems to prevent anyone from really developing technology.

And yea, it's more expensive if you place towers every 3 miles instead of 10 or 20, but that's why sending is for gong from town to town, or to a capital. Whispering winds is for communicating from a lookout (that you would have built anyways) to the town center/militia HQ, etc. Message might be used from a scout/patrol back to the lookout.

I agree if you have to maintain the same line of towers if would be more expensive, but you're not trying too. You're not going to build any additional towers beyond what you would have already had, because the method of communication is different.


Well, the question wasn't was it cannon that Golarion had an Optical Telegraph system, it is obviously true that it doesn't. Why might be magic (although Golorion does have good telescopes, which is what allowed it work in our world) or it might be something else. Sometimes people just don't think of things, the stirrup could have been invented much sooner then it was for example.

The question though was would it be useful to have an optical telegraph system in Golarion even though Golarion has magic. I believe that the ability to have communication flow within hours from one part of a nation to another at relatively little expense (at least compared to trying to achieve the same thing with magic) would certainly make it useful.


Would it really be cheaper? Buildings are expensive in PF. If you're actually planning to use telescopes they're expensive (and easier to steal). The staffing costs are relatively low compared to those, but they still exist. The system is so vulnerable to monster attacks or fey pranks - dozens of groups of ~4 L1 experts in the middle of nowhere, in spots that necessarily must be visible for miles around, where very few of them will know the area at first, and any group loss brings down a line - that your uptime could be embarrassingly low. Fog and low cloud cuts the line too, possibly heavy rain also. Subverting the system is child's play for anyone with cash, magic or a decent intimidate skill.

There's value to it, but whether its worth the cost depends on finding more demand for it than routine military info. Commercial data or something.


I think I speak for everyone* when I say that I want Alkenstar telegraph machines and Numeria shock jock radio stations.

*Margin of error: >99%

Liberty's Edge

For what it's worth, there is at least one example of Pathfinders using lights and large mirrors to send messages from one tower to another. That was a makeshift rig during a crisis, however.


I'm surprised nobody's mentioned Oprak, actually. Hobgoblins have longstanding stigmas against arcane magic and generally favor science and ingenuity for problem-solving. Even their divine casters have been historically more of a "oh, yeah, that's Mort the shaman, we make her live in the cave outside of town and only go to her for help if we have to" situation. Sendings are probably a lot harder to come by for the growing nation. Plus, they're in the mountains, where courier travel is slow and signal towers would be at their most effective!

(Birds would obviously work, too, but like someone said above, redundancies are important, especially for a militant nation like Oprak on the verge of war with one of its neighbors. A bird can lose its way or be shot down.)

Liberty's Edge

During the XIX century Heliographs were common in modern armies, you see them in a few Westerns, and they were still used by the navies for most of the XX century.
The basic idea of optical communication systems is way older with examples that go back to the fourth century B.C.: Aeneas Tacticus described a hydraulic telegraph (the English version of the page is way shorter and don't speak of it). It could send only a few messages, you can see an image here.

About the Optical telegraph, it was used for private messages too. From what I recall in The Count of Montecristo Dantes changes some optical telegraph messages to ruin Danglars by giving him false information.

It is all stuff that can be adapted in Pathfinder.


IDK, every time I get a carrier pidgeon I'm hungy an hour later... why squab-ble about it...


there are two important things here;
1) the earth being roughly spherical means there's a visual horizon limit. So towers give you more Line of Sight by virtue of height.
2) Rayleigh Criterion or Co-site location issues. Basically discrimination/resolution and background issues.

historically signal towers and such have been used (think lighthouses too).
One there's a physical system in place then there's usually an effort to develop a coding method to ease information exchange (semaphore, morse, smoke signals, drum signals, ...).
Simple AM Radios made a huge difference and a simple system is not that complex physically once you understand some electromagnetic theory and have electricity.

In the Game there's magic so that makes a lot of mundane issues easier. Message cantrip has severe range limitations compared to a roughly 20 mile horizon. Mirrors in the daylight and Dancing Lights cantrip at night might be more practical.
There's also stylistic elements such as the Melnibonéan QAM twin telegraph using a pair of twins and various implements.


You know what is better than an optical telegraph? A flying optical telegraph that can see through clouds.

Cloud cover? Not an issue.
Mountains? Less of an issue.
Ease of construction? Just train and hire some 100-10,000 flying sylp Arcane Archer X/Archer Fighter Y/Zen Archer Monk Z/Arrowsong Minstrels.

But all joking aside, yeah its feasible. No its not practical because those towers would need guarding and then you might as well make a full fort.

Liberty's Edge

Temperans wrote:

But all joking aside, yeah its feasible. No its not practical because those towers would need guarding and then you might as well make a full You know what is better than an optical telegraph? A flying optical telegraph that can see through clouds.

Cloud cover? Not an issue.
Mountains? Less of an issue.
Ease of construction? Just train and hire some 100-10,000 flying sylp Arcane Archer X/Archer Fighter Y/Zen Archer Monk Z/Arrowsong Minstrfort.

Guarding against what?

If you are in an area with heavy raids by monsters that can destroy a structure that will be very similar to a lighthouse you need the forts and probably will not build anything away from places where you have strong garrisons.

The places that will want this kind of structure will be relatively stable kingdoms that control their territory reasonably well. At the same time, the equipment will be worth very little on the black market, so bandits or other intelligent predators will have little interest in them. The nearest farm will be an easier target.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Temperans wrote:

But all joking aside, yeah its feasible. No its not practical because those towers would need guarding and then you might as well make a full You know what is better than an optical telegraph? A flying optical telegraph that can see through clouds.

Cloud cover? Not an issue.
Mountains? Less of an issue.
Ease of construction? Just train and hire some 100-10,000 flying sylp Arcane Archer X/Archer Fighter Y/Zen Archer Monk Z/Arrowsong Minstrfort.

Guarding against what?

If you are in an area with heavy raids by monsters that can destroy a structure that will be very similar to a lighthouse you need the forts and probably will not build anything away from places where you have strong garrisons.

The places that will want this kind of structure will be relatively stable kingdoms that control their territory reasonably well. At the same time, the equipment will be worth very little on the black market, so bandits or other intelligent predators will have little interest in them. The nearest farm will be an easier target.

There are very few stable kingdoms in Golarion and there is the constant treat of monster attacks. So those towers would need defending or else risk the operators getting killed, worse the system getting taken over.

The best case scenario is using it during military campaigns, but then you would want to use any of the much more feasible options. Like say for example:

Book of whispering.
Fast messengers.
Silver Raven Figurine of Power.
Obsidian Raven Figurine (other planar allies).
Signal Kites.
Etc.

Liberty's Edge

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Farmers exist in Golarion and famines don't seem to be a common event, so I feel that our perception of how dangerous are peaceful activities in Golarion is a bit skewed by us playing the "more interesting" moments of an adventurer life and not the everyday life of a commoner.


Famines don't happen as often cause most towns have a at least a cleric or a few adepts. That solves a lot of the issues with food going bad and having enough water. Specially if you can cast the Harvest Bounty Festival or have a druid that can cast Plant Growth regularly.

That doesn't mean that there aren't issues with monsters (Case and point Sandpoint).


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Sandpoint is surrounded by monster lairs and monsters. If the monsters attacked Sandpoint on a regular basis, the town would have been wiped out long ago. Sandpoint suffers the occasional monster attack. It’s not perpetual or frequent.


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I'm fully in favor of anything that makes Golarion more like Discworld.


Yeah, the vibe I get is that "we've lost connection with a signal tower, we need you to go check it out" is more a thing that happens a lot to adventurers, since they're the ones who have to check it out, and not super often overall. It's not a Points of Light setting--otherwise nomadic communities probably wouldn't survive. A typical Varisian caravan would get wiped out the first time it bumped into 1d3 behirs.


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I think there's too much economic realism in this thread. The genre is fantasy. Could it work? Yes. Are there cheaper ways to achieve the same thing with magic? Yes, but there are lots of things that seem like they wouldn't be needed in a world with magic. Teleportation is better than sailing ships. Castles don't work if an invisible flying wizard can drop fireballs on you. We usually ignore those problems, because we like sailing ships and castles. If you need a justification, you can always make something up:
"Teleportation magic is rare and people don't trust it."
"The local high-cleric would hunt down and kill any wizard dangerous enough to try that."
"The signal towers are a tradition, sacred to the local church, serving multiple purposes. Each one is staffed by a skilled archer who is able to drive off the monsters that would otherwise threaten the area."


Very well said! This isn't a setting like Eberron where the theme is "how would this actually play out". Golarion is a kitchen sink setting full of conceits and contrivances, and there's nothing wrong with that.

I stand by my Oprak take, though.

Liberty's Edge

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Matthew Downie wrote:

I think there's too much economic realism in this thread. The genre is fantasy. Could it work? Yes. Are there cheaper ways to achieve the same thing with magic? Yes, but there are lots of things that seem like they wouldn't be needed in a world with magic. Teleportation is better than sailing ships. Castles don't work if an invisible flying wizard can drop fireballs on you. We usually ignore those problems, because we like sailing ships and castles. If you need a justification, you can always make something up:

"Teleportation magic is rare and people don't trust it."
"The local high-cleric would hunt down and kill any wizard dangerous enough to try that."
"The signal towers are a tradition, sacred to the local church, serving multiple purposes. Each one is staffed by a skilled archer who is able to drive off the monsters that would otherwise threaten the area."

Yes, no, maybe?

While some things will be forced to change by magic even in a world like Golarion, castles, and ships aren't that easy to replace.

Castle architecture will change, but the basic concept will stay. The attacks of a flying wizard with a wand of fireball (to be able to cast more than a couple of them) will be easily stopped by roofs and clay shingles. Same thing for lighting bolts, acids, and cold. All stopped by inexpensive clay. With the rules about damaging objects, the attacker would need several spells to break the clay cover.

Ships are inexpensive, can go to places you haven't visited (differently from teleport), and can load plenty of stuff.
The teleporting spellcaster can bring a few hundred pounds of material thanks to the use of bags of holding and 3-4 persons. And he would ask a minimum of 450 gp for that (approximately the equivalent of 22,500 S/€).
Great for rich clients, the jet set of Golarion. Great for transporting low-mass/high-value merchandise like spices. Not for everyday transportation of things like food that is transported in tons, or construction lumber that has a size inappropriate to bags of holding, or portable holes.
And that is even disregarding the part of Teleportation that says: " Areas of strong physical or magical energy may make teleportation more hazardous or even impossible."
A city with an active market, hundred of spellcasters, magic item shops and so on seems to fall in that description.

In my version of Golarion there is a "Teleportation set" of people that travel through teleportation. Luxury items can be moved to distant places in seconds. Very rich people have things like a "Purify food and drink frigidaire" or "Jacuzzi of endless bubbling water (with temperature control)" and sometimes the PCs find that stuff as their loot, but for most people that lifestyle is something they dream.

Clerics can create food, but to find a 5th level cleric you need a village with 61-200 inhabitants. The cleric can create food for 15 of them, or 5 horses. High wisdom and the right god can triple that. At the expense of all his 3rd level spells.
I don't doubt that there are soup kitchens doing that regularly in most cities, but I doubt you have that many spellcasters doing that regularly that it would have a major impact on how the world works.

TL, DR: yes, something will be different, but it will impact mostly the rich people, not everyday life.


Castles in Golarion often have open courtyards and guards standing on parapets, because that's what they're like in our world. Not so sensible when there are dozens of flying species that can attack from above.

And I'm pretty sure there was a way to teleport a shipload's worth of goods in one go by casting Ant Haul on a Brachiosaurus or something like that.

But I'm basically on your side on these issues. If you're thinking about the world critically, you can easily say, "That doesn't make sense to me." If you're thinking about it positively, you can suspend disbelief and not worry about it, or you can come up with excuses such as "spellcasters are actually pretty rare".

Liberty's Edge

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A Brachiosaurus size is Gargantuan, so teleporting one requires to be able to teleport 8 persons, so a CL of 24. Maybe you can get there, but spellcasters of that level don't work as ferrymen.

I mostly agree about the open courtyard, as I said architecture will change a bit, but the concept will stay. Even something as simple as a net of ropes above the courtyard will help with the flyers' problem.

In my current campaign, partially with the excuse of "Kelesh is the land of djinni, there is plenty of strong magical signatures around." I have limited safe teleports to prepared platforms in the Magicians guilds of large cities. And the members of the Magicians guilds try to keep a monopoly on the spell. They sell the teleporting service for some serious fee, and only from city to city.
The players are a couple of levels away from learning Teleport (we play on the slow track), but even when they learn it, it will not be "I teleport back and forth to buy groceries.", but "I will Teleport near city X, probably I will miss by several miles, then I will go to the city." (teleporting to one of the safe platforms if you aren't a member of the Guild isn't a good idea. Naturally, the players can try to become members of the Guilds, and that will be the start of some role playing adventure.)

So, a snapshot of Europe or Asia's middle ages will not work, but starting from there and making some adaptations will work.


I'm signaling my answer from atop my signal tower with my semaphore flags... look for it! (that merit badge will not go to waste!)

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