I think that all the deaths caused by the Infinity Gauntlet can be undone by the same. That would mean that the deaths of Loki, Heimdall, Gamorra, and Vision are permanent.
Technically, with the time stone you can go back and alter events, as Thano's did to stop Wanda destroying the mind stone, so someone could concievably use the guantlet to rewrite as much canon as they want.
Hey JJ Abrams, want a Marvel job?
One thing everyone is forgetting about is Adam warlock, who played a big part in the original comic story. And since he was Easter egged in GotG2, I expect him to get the stones and do some rebooting.
Adam (Warlock) "No one wastes the Guardians of the Galaxy except me, ya purple ape."
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I suspect we might be too late in the game to be introducing Adam Warlock as an actual character rather than an Easter Egg. It sounds like CM is all cued up to be our salvation from Thanos' plan. In a way it's a shame, because Adam had one of the best all-time lines in the comic version of this story.
EDIT: would one be "cued up" or "queued up"?
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I figure it's entirely possible that a backup of Vision (sans-Mind stone) was "saved" in the Wakanda computers.
That's my thought. The color change did seem reminiscent of the comic storyline in which Vision is taken apart and rebuilt without emotions. His personality is said to be some weird conglomeration of Jarvis, Ultron, Tony, the Mind Stone, etc. so if reconstructed from Shuri's downloaded copy, he'd be sans Mind Stone.
When Vision turned colors, it reminded me of when Prime died in the Transformers: the Movie. Except Vision had the Matrix on his forehead and it was a lot more useful in day-to-day life.The Mind Stone didn't seem to be doing Vision a whole lot of favors.
(I never saw the Transformers movie. Only ever heard good things about it, though. I would sometimes catch the cartoon if I got home from track practice early enough, and I remember seeing episodes that took place after the movie, and thinking, "Damn, WTH did I miss there?")
Given the energy blasts he could create in the movie with it, that'd be useful. Except apparently when he's injured and fighting Thanos' minions. Though the downside is like the Matrix, the bad guys want it rather badly.
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I feel like meanwhile in the TV portion of the universe, literally everyone Jessica Jones knows has poofed except her because that's how her life rolls.
And now Jessica Jones is traveling throughout NYC making 50% of all alcoholic beverages disappear.
Fifty? She cutting back?
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Fifty? She cutting back?
The other half are attended objects.
One thing everyone is forgetting about is Adam warlock, who played a big part in the original comic story. And since he was Easter egged in GotG2, I expect him to get the stones and do some rebooting.I suspect we might be too late in the game to be introducing Adam Warlock as an actual character rather than an Easter Egg. It sounds like CM is all cued up to be our salvation from Thanos' plan.
I figure it's entirely possible that a backup of Vision (sans-Mind stone) was "saved" in the Wakanda computers.That's my thought. The color change did seem reminiscent of the comic storyline in which Vision is taken apart and rebuilt without emotions. His personality is said to be some weird conglomeration of Jarvis, Ultron, Tony, the Mind Stone, etc. so if reconstructed from Shuri's downloaded copy, he'd be sans Mind Stone.
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I am incredibly pleased at how they managed to thread this needle.
I have a few theories about how things are going to shake out in the next movie.
Dr Strange's Plan
Strange cast some manner of spell on the Time Stone to corrupt Thanos' "kill 50% of everyone completely at random" wish. And so everyone killed by the Gauntlet is instead in the Soul Stone, where they'll be coming at Thanos through the gauntlet while the OG Avengers (plus Rocket) go into space to go kick him in the jiminies.
Also, was thinking about it at work today.
Thanos is an idiot.
A misguided idiot.
He eliminated 50% of the population.
Which means that there's 50% remaining.
What happens when there's a death that reduces it below 50% OR a spate of births as people attempt to 'make up the loss'.
No wonder he was called the 'Mad' Titan.
...and yes, I did read some of the old IG run back in the day. And I never came to this conclusion...
A species rarely needs more than, what, a few thousand adults of suitable age to begin repopulation without inbreeding? Not so mad a plan, per se.
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It's a short-term and small-minded solution that pretends to be a 'big picture solution'.
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You could also use the stones to create an unlimited resource tree the size of the universes so that people never go hungry and it doesn't matter how big the population is. You could use the stones to alter everyone's minds so that they never feel any aggression or greed so don't fight for resources.
Thanos's idea that he is helping the universe is just his justification for wanting to create a universe that fears him and that he can utter power over of.
Sara Marie's rationale aside, is there a reason people are making spoiler tags in the spoiler thread?
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At average human population growth rates, it will only take a few decades to recover the population, and so either Thanos would have to repeat this act every 30-50 years or so, or come up with a more long term solution. Obviously alien races might take more or less time, but for something done on a universe scale, it's actually an extremely short term fix.
I actually think this lack of long-term planning will be part of Thanos' undoing. Compare his use of the Time stone to Dr. Strange's, for example.
If Thanos really wanted to use the stones to increase the overall supply of usable resources in the universe, he would use it to "rewind" entropy and delay the eventual heat death.
Thanos still thinks as he was prior to acquiring The Glove with all of the Infinity Stones. He has not (yet) put much thought beyond his pre-Glove goal as to what solutions the power of The Glove (fully 'stoned') is capable of providing beyond mass massacres...
Good points above!
There are hard-limits to what the Gauntlet can do with all the stones, but it's really hard to push that hard-limit.
It'd be much easier to slow down the biological processes for all races to mitigate a population crash (perhaps via digital uploading?), set everyone's minds at ease that this was a normal thing, and uplift all races to work on the problem.
...but then it wouldn't be about Thanos Saving The Day.
EDIT: A thought comes to mind -- when Thanos was trying to end 'half of everyone' was he attempting to incorporate himself into the 'half that went' and that's what caused the glove to have issues?
Thor:
He said something about watching a sunrise in peace ...
If they ever make a Strange 2, I think perhaps introducing Clea as a new character might be a good idea. She has a lot of history with Strange.
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Dr. Strange plan was simple...the best way to defeat Thanos is to let him win...he will end up defeating himself...that is how it worked in the comics...
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At average human population growth rates, it will only take a few decades to recover the population, and so either Thanos would have to repeat this act every 30-50 years or so, or come up with a more long term solution. Obviously alien races might take more or less time, but for something done on a universe scale, it's actually an extremely short term fix.
Or a mad space titan is a heck of an incentive to get some more effective birth-control methods going on your planet..
I liked it a lot. Didn't love it, but it's pretty good.
I think the movie had an insolvable problem of having to deal with so many characters. It did a good job of splitting screen time and carrying enough threads that everyone got to do something, and it was all focused. Basically no matter what it was always going to feel like "too much movie", but they did a really good job of making it work as best as possible.
One of the problems was about 3-4 years ago the MCU was starting to get stale. Doctor Strange kind of revived that staleness (his story line being exactly like Stark's in broad strokes), but a few movies have tried to set a new course. In a lot of ways, I can see this as a love letter to Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back. The heroes needed to fully lose for once, and this was the perfect movie to do it in.
Also:
I am Steve Rodgers.
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@Bjorn
The Wakanda breaking of ranks was due to the Outriders going around the shield where they would eventually break through the shield and flood the city. Since they operate in 'Yell and leap' mode, opening the shield to let them in would draw them back to the front.
I was thinking about a very, very flawed premise that is a really HARD sell at the very START of the movie.
Assumption A: Loki is really dead.
Assumption B: Loki isn't the greatest trickster ever known that made even Thor believe he was dead for years.
Assumption C: Loki playing up the Hulk? No, something else was really going on there.
Personal tinfoil hat theory?
He was gaming the system, knew Thanos was going to show up, and then proceeded to lie and illusion his butt off well enough (because Thanos did not have Soul, Mind, Time, or even Space at that point) to make it look that he was REALLY REALLY OMG SO DEAD AND SO IS EVERYONE ELSE (Well, except for Heimdall, but that's on Heimdall.)
Also, is there a 'finishing school' for 'Infinity Stone' carriers? Because both Loki and Dr. Strange did this kind of 'hold it out on a platter thing'...
Interestingly, Loki's death in The Dark World was originally intended to actually be his death. Test audiences didn't believe it though, so they did the reshoot with Loki pretending to be Odin at the end.
In particular, he made certain claims about being King of Asgard, etc, etc that were also... rather bogus?
...and Thor said nothing about it.
No, I'm calling shenanigans
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Also, is there a 'finishing school' for 'Infinity Stone' carriers? Because both Loki and Dr. Strange did this kind of 'hold it out on a platter thing'...
Strange hid it as a star in the sky. I f++%ing loved that. He reaches up, and plucks a star out of the sky, and bam--it's the time stone.
In particular, he made certain claims about being King of Asgard, etc, etc that were also... rather bogus?...and Thor said nothing about it.
No, I'm calling shenanigans
Honestly it just depends on if they have a good idea for him or not in Thor 4. If Hemsworth signs another multi-movie deal, I think a Loki reappearance is inevitable, but if Infinity War 2, and Thor 4 is the end for this Thor, I'd give Hiddleston-Loki less than 50/50 of coming back.
Honestly it just depends on if they have a good idea for him or not in Thor 4. If Hemsworth signs another multi-movie deal, I think a Loki reappearance is inevitable, but if Infinity War 2, and Thor 4 is the end for this Thor, I'd give Hiddleston-Loki less than 50/50 of coming back.
In particular, he made certain claims about being King of Asgard, etc, etc that were also... rather bogus?...and Thor said nothing about it.
No, I'm calling shenanigans
Isn't is really more the case of whether Hiddleston would himself want to come back? I think at this point his career is probably on better footing than Hemsworth.
I am actually okay with Loki staying dead for now. Sure, I expect he might pop back up down MUCH further down the line with a new actor, but there are enough stories out there that don't involve Loki that they can adapt.
One thing that makes me believe Loki pulled a fast one to escape death is the completely uncharacteristic manner in which he confronted Thanos. Pledging false allegiance, sure, but a quick frontal assault with a knife? Loki is not a hand-to-hand combatant by choice, and he should always have a choice. The easiest thing for me to believe about that scene is that while Loki was briefly off camera, he set up a complex illusion to encourage Thanos to "kill" him, while he jumped into an escape pod. No, I can't explain the body he left behind.
Re: Dr. Strange, I would like to believe that turning over the Time Stone to Thanos was more than just him seeing that as only path to the only one of 14,000,605 possible outcomes in which the good guys win. I hope we find out he used the stone first to cast a time delayed spell which will trigger that outcome at the appropriate moment in the next movie.
Did I hear this dialogue correctly?
---Stark: "Where did you come from?"
---Spiderman: "The future!"
And if I did, was that just a Spidey quip, or was his appearance at that moment something we'll see prompted in the next movie?
Ice cream flavors. I missed hearing those. Ben & Jerry's "Stark Raving Nuts" for Tony, but there were one or two more after that...
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In particular, he made certain claims about being King of Asgard, etc, etc that were also... rather bogus?...and Thor said nothing about it.
No, I'm calling shenanigans
Loki claimed the titles of Prince of Asgard and rightful ruler of Jotunheim. No reason for Thor to dispute those.
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Did I hear this dialogue correctly?
---Stark: "Where did you come from?"
---Spiderman: "The future!"Ice cream flavors. I missed hearing those. Ben & Jerry's "Stark Raving Nuts" for Tony, but there were one or two more after that...
I don't think you heard that line properly, as I heard, "Field trip!"
The ice cream flavors were something like Stark Raving Hazelnut, and "Hulka Hulka Burning Fudge" or something like that. Look, if I've got to go see it a third time to nail down the ice cream flavors, I will...
Loki's actions seem pretty consistent with his character development since Thor: The Dark World. I think it's mostly a case of him buying into his own hype. Remember that as of Ragnarok, He's been playing at being Odin and watching plays showing him as a fallen hero. At the End of Ragnarok he then comes down from the heavens as a savior to his people, when he really could have just gone away and stayed safe.
Also I think Loki was more envious of his brother than anything else. You can still be irritated at a loved one without wanting to see them tortured.
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Ben and Jerry's IRL really needs to be all over those names for ice cream.
Ben and Jerry's IRL really needs to be all over those names for ice cream.
Right? To borrow a line from Archer, "Would you not?"
I don't think you heard that line properly, as I heard, "Field trip!"
The ice cream flavors were something like Stark Raving Hazelnut, and "Hulka Hulka Burning Fudge" or something like that. Look, if I've got to go see it a third time to nail down the ice cream flavors, I will...
"Field trip" obviously makes a great deal more sense, so let's go with your ears over mine, definitely.
"...Burning Fudge" has some potentially unpleasant digestive connotations, and I'm nut sure B&J would be best served by that name, but I'm willing to bet you heard that one correctly as well. (Hulk's flavor really should be green, of course, so perhaps some sort of fudge/mint mix? And not just a hint of mint, but "strongest mint there is." No idea what such a flavor should be called, though.)
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"Burning fudge" could just be a chili infused chocolate, which happens to be delicious. It would have to be one of those chilis that seems mild and unassuming when you first taste it, but then suddenly it grows in strength...
I believe the only flavors mentioned were Hulka Hulka Burning Fudge and Stark Raving Hazelnuts (the two characters in the scene).
Variety shows a clip mentioning Stark's.
Me, I think I'd like some Blackberry Widow. (Even though it may cause sudden death.)
As for more serious stuff... I'll take a risk and wager that Loki really is most sincerely dead. If he comes back it's going to be through some kind of shenanigans where he becomes Lady Loki or something.
Heimdall is also most definitely dead.
We didn't see Valkyrie, weirdly, on the ship so I wonder if she made it. I know a lot of folks are writing her off as dead, but I think she's been talking about future movies, and it's Marvel, so if you didn't see a body, you can't ever be sure.
I didn't catch the exact name of the Hulk flavor (I was in Geek Overload through the whole thing), just that it was Fudge, and was a play on the title of the Elvis song, "Hunka Hunka Burnin' Love".
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I'm hearing from multiple sources that anyone on the Asgard ship we didn't see was part of the half Thanos spared, including Valkyrie. There are in-movie references to Thanos killing half the Asgardians, so that seems quite plausible to me. Of course, his finger snap probably killed them half again.
My wife is absolutely convinced that Loki's death was a trick. He is a trickster god, which is really all the excuse they need to bring him back any time they want to.
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Heimdall, Loki and Gamorra are *almost* certainly deceased. The MCU Soul Stone - unlike the comics - may not be able to resurrect those that The Glove was not responsible for the death of in the first place.
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Heimdall, Loki and Gamorra are *almost* certainly deceased. The MCU Soul Stone - unlike the comics - may not be able to resurrect those that The Glove was not responsible for the death of in the first place.
Gamora could have a get-out-of-being-dead-free card, since she died in the presence of the Soul Stone, as part of the 'price' to get it, which *could* suggest that she'd be refunded if Thanos returned (or lost) the stone. (But possibly not, since the actress is gonna be super-busy with all those Avatar movies coming up, and this could be a good stepping off point for her. It's entirely possible that Nebula could have been the scripted sacrifice, having earned Thanos' admiration with a near-successful attempt on his life, and the script changed with Zoe Saldana's upcoming scheduling issues...)
That said, I do find it amusing that all of the characters boldly predicted to die, because their actors were at the end of their contracts, like Tony and Steve, bought it, while newbies who are 'obviously going to live' like Spidey and T'Challa, got dusted.
I saw an interesting fan-theory (and we all know what those are worth...), that called back to the nature of the Soul Stone in the comics, which contained a pocket world in which anyone who died to it lived on. The theory was that everyone we saw turn to dust were the people who *weren't* being sucked into the stone, and that everyone who 'survived' were actually the newly dead waking up in the pocket dimension inside the stone (and unaware that they weren't the lucky 50%)...
And anyway, Loki's faked his death before. I suspect he's dead, but really, Heimdall's the only one that I'd be really surprised to see again. (And I'm also convinced that any Asgardians we didn't see die, like Valkyrie, or Sif, and maybe other Asgardians we never saw, like Baldar and the Enchantress, are off somewhere, setting up an Asgardian colony on a planet that they passed on the way to Earth, and kind of lucked out and missed the genocide.)
Vision's totally coming back, with a tweaked personality (less influence from the Mind Stone, that's for sure!) and a new hue. I say this with the breezy confidence of someone who has been wrong with every other prediction about this storyline, and therefore do not give a crap if I'm wrong again. :)
*laughing*
Looked like Thanos 'transitioned' through the Soul Stone (the orange-hued scene where he was not wearing The Glove) for a chit-chat with Child-Gamora for a tiny bit.
Gamora's "get-out-of-dead" card I think would be contingent on Thanos 'taking back' on sacrificing her to acquire the stone in the first place. My guess is that the Stone used Child-Gamora to confirm Thanos' motivation/sincerity in making that sacrifice before he got his peaceful watching of the sunrise, removing this 'contingency clause' from play.
That is an ... interesting ... fan theory. I'm not sure it holds water with the surprise everyone who got dusted expressed. If they were instead saying 'are you alright?' or something similarly odd the theory would be much stronger.
Don't think that the Asgardians were split up prior to Thanos' arrival. My guess is that the big ship's opening salvo (not shown in this film) split the ship into "this half will survive, the other half we'll fire on, board and massacre since they have our loot anyway".
Vision... I dunno. It could go either way, depending on how everything went. Perhaps the Mind Stone "took over" the android body the moment the last neuron was disconnected after its 2 years of co-habitation with Jarvis bits/Ultron bits/Banner bits/Stark bits. Perhaps "Vision 2.0" will be a result of a 'back-up' that has the unintended side effect of unleashing a New Ultron into play.
The next year holds great promise!
Edit: Perhaps the earlier trailers were not misdirection ... but snippets from Avengers 4? Did some of the earlier trailers have different details than what is on-screen in Avengers 3?
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Heimdall, Loki and Gamorra are *almost* certainly deceased. The MCU Soul Stone - unlike the comics - may not be able to resurrect those that The Glove was not responsible for the death of in the first place.Gamora could have a get-out-of-being-dead-free card, since she died in the presence of the Soul Stone, as part of the 'price' to get it, which *could* suggest that she'd be refunded if Thanos returned (or lost) the stone. (But possibly not, since the actress is gonna be super-busy with all those Avatar movies coming up, and this could be a good stepping off point for her. It's entirely possible that Nebula could have been the scripted sacrifice, having earned Thanos' admiration with a near-successful attempt on his life, and the script changed with Zoe Saldana's upcoming scheduling issues...)
Given James Gunn was quoted as saying he had "intense conversations" with Zoe Saldana about having a larger role in GotG 3, that seems unlikely. It's possible things have changed (this interview was prior to the release of Infinity War) but last I heard she is not only going to be in the next one, she will have a larger role (I read somewhere else that this was in part because Chris Pratt is the one with scheduling issues and so Star-Lord will have less of a role, but I can't find the link to that). Now, it could be a flashback movie, but I think something will happen to restore Gamora.
If they don't, I'll be surprised but also at least respect their decision to make some deaths stick. I don't like gratuitous death in drama and I think character death is often used these days as a lazy shortcut to building drama, but when death does happen I want it to stick and mean something. (I do feel ambivalent about the dustings because it seems so unlikely they will be permanent--not to mention a challenge to now depict a world with 50% of its original population and the disasters that ensued, particularly throughout the extended MCU.)
That said, I do find it amusing that all of the characters boldly predicted to die, because their actors were at the end of their contracts, like Tony and Steve, bought it, while newbies who are 'obviously going to live' like Spidey and T'Challa, got dusted.
I think that's why they had such impact. Of course I've seen many of those people making those predictions move them to what will happen in A4 instead. I don't think Stark will die, though he may retire/step away from the heroing (for really real). Steve might, although he keeps trying to die and they never let him... it could be he gets hit with a time whammy and gets aged up to Old Man Rogers, which lets Evans out if he wants (something I keep hearing, though I haven't seen a source on that) while not doing what everyone expects.
I saw an interesting fan-theory (and we all know what those are worth...), that called back to the nature of the Soul Stone in the comics, which contained a pocket world in which anyone who died to it lived on. The theory was that everyone we saw turn to dust were the people who *weren't* being sucked into the stone, and that everyone who 'survived' were actually the newly dead waking up in the pocket dimension inside the stone (and unaware that they weren't the lucky 50%)...
The problem (one of several) with that is that it would mean the Captain Marvel beeper went off in the pocket dimension. Which I have a feeling is unlikely.
Vision's totally coming back, with a tweaked personality (less influence from the Mind Stone, that's for sure!) and a new hue. I say this with the breezy confidence of someone who has been wrong with every other prediction about this storyline, and therefore do not give a crap if I'm wrong again. :)
Vision... I dunno. It could go either way, depending on how everything went. Perhaps the Mind Stone "took over" the android body the moment the last neuron was disconnected after its 2 years of co-habitation with Jarvis bits/Ultron bits/Banner bits/Stark bits. Perhaps "Vision 2.0" will be a result of a 'back-up' that has the unintended side effect of unleashing a New Ultron into play.
Given it would be most likely Shuri restoring Vision, I think her accidentally creating Ultron II is unlikely. I can see Shuri suffering from hubris in some way, but I think she's careful enough not to let that thing in particular happen.
And I agree Set, I think Vision will be rebooted sans mind stone. The question will be if his emotions are intact.