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One of the things I dislike the most about Starfinder is the scaling weapons and armor.
Please tell me we aren't getting the same kind of equipment system for PF2...I really hate having different stat blocks for a level 1 longsword vs a level 10 longsword, I also hate the scaling dice in Starfinder...not everyone wants to go out and buy 20 d8s (and no companies sell matched sets of anything but d6's or d10's)
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We are not. Instead, each +1 a weapon has from magic adds the damage die again. So a +1 longsword does 2d8+Str damage instead of 1d8. A +3 Greataxe does 4d12.
This does mean you might need as many as 6 dice for damage, but no more, and it also follows much more logically from the way Pathfinder is structured.
On the other hand, there are some sorts of tiered item lists.
From the Secrets of Alchemy blog, they showed off some level 1 alchemical items and a level 3 item.
From the following Twitch stream, we were given the Philosopher's Stone as an example of a 20th level alchemical item.
Personally, I don't see any issues with scaling equipment. It just allows you to have equipment that's more powerful at different parts of the game. In 1E, this was done entirely through enhancement bonuses and magic items, with the "level" of said magic items being basically determined by their pricing and how it matched up with PC wealth per level.
I'm down with a more standardized system.
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I feel like having an abstract "item level" to represent availability and difficulty of crafting is a good idea since representing these things with just gold makes it hard to find the happy medium between "people won't get this too early" and "people won't use these things at high level because they're too expensive."
I believe this is going to be mostly for things other than weapons and armor since Starfinderesque weapon damage scaling is going to be handled by how +1 weapons work- a normal longsword rolls 1d8 for damage, a +1 longsword rolls 2d8 for damage, a +5 longsword rolls 6d8 for damage.
So worry not, Paizo will not need to invent 20 different kinds of Lucerne Hammers.
I actually really liked the scaling from Starfinder, loved how streamlined it made the ability to have improved weapons. I don’t think it would make sense in Pathfinder though, so i am glad they took the route of magic weapon bonuses granting more damage dice.
I get how it might be a pain to some people having to roll a ton of dice, but it really is the best solution for closing the caster-martial gap. Increasing their damage dealt and reducing the dependence on a full-attack.
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You really can't please everybody in this regard.
Some people love rolling dice and as many dice as they can. Others hate having to roll dice and do a bunch of addition.
At the very least, diceroller applications are plentiful if you need to roll and add a lot of dice quickly.
This change also makes weapon damage dice more significant; typically in 1E the difference between a 1d6 and a 1d8 became meaningless when you're adding +50 and above in static modifiers on top of them.
I hated Starfinder equipment scaling. Oddly, I think it is pretty much the same as Pathfinder equipment scaling, just with tech instead of magic. The BP of starships (which had no corresponding credit value) didn't help, either. It's just that the game balance screws were so obviously showing. You don't want to see the game balance screws every time you consider what kind of weapon to buy. Time for an Advanced Baton? 540,000 credits, please. Ugh.
Some SF systems do not use abstract wealth systems and some do. Traveler handles "high level" play pretty well with battle dress and plasma rifles, as well as outrageously expensive ships, and it does not have any wealth abstractions. Fragged has an interesting "current resources" abstraction. Neither of these systems expect every single character to trade in their azimuth laser pistols at 6th Level, which is just jarring.
We are not. Instead, each +1 a weapon has from magic adds the damage die again. So a +1 longsword does 2d8+Str damage instead of 1d8. A +3 Greataxe does 4d12.
This does mean you might need as many as 6 dice for damage, but no more, and it also follows much more logically from the way Pathfinder is structured.
Wow! That's a lot of damage.
Are monster hit points being increased to compensate? Or, will they stay about the same?
If they stay the same, this will make fights go faster!
PCs get max HP at every level plus bonus HP from their ancestry at level 1, so I think a reasonable assumption would be that monster HP will be increased similarly.
I hated Starfinder equipment scaling. Oddly, I think it is pretty much the same as Pathfinder equipment scaling, just with tech instead of magic. The BP of starships (which had no corresponding credit value) didn't help, either. It's just that the game balance screws were so obviously showing. You don't want to see the game balance screws every time you consider what kind of weapon to buy. Time for an Advanced Baton? 540,000 credits, please. Ugh.
Some SF systems do not use abstract wealth systems and some do. Traveler handles "high level" play pretty well with battle dress and plasma rifles, as well as outrageously expensive ships, and it does not have any wealth abstractions. Fragged has an interesting "current resources" abstraction. Neither of these systems expect every single character to trade in their azimuth laser pistols at 6th Level, which is just jarring.
I’m not totally sure what you mean by the balance screws showing. Do you mean that the mechanic was too gamey?
Also confused what you mean by Starfinder Expecting you to trade in your laser pistol at 6th level? Did you feel like Starfinder encouraged upgrading your weapons more often than Pathfinder does?
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Wow! That's a lot of damage.
Are monster hit points being increased to compensate? Or, will they stay about the same?
If they stay the same, this will make fights go faster!
HP are likely to go up a bit since PCs have more and the PC rules can be used for enemies. Static damage may also go down a bit.
Instead, each +1 a weapon has from magic adds the damage die again. So a +1 longsword does 2d8+Str damage instead of 1d8. A +3 Greataxe does 4d12.
How is that not effectively the same thing? I mean, it makes sense from an in-universe perspective. But it seems to effectively be what Starfinder does (just magic instead of technology).
My preference would be automatic scaling items. So that greatsword I'm using at 15th level? It's the same one I got at 3rd level. I haven't had to apply any special magic to it. It's just I'm able to use it so much better because I'm much more skilled.
On the other hand, there are some sorts of tiered item lists.
From the Secrets of Alchemy blog, they showed off some level 1 alchemical items and a level 3 item.
From the following Twitch stream, we were given the Philosopher's Stone as an example of a 20th level alchemical item.
The levels in those Items is the level the Alchemist needs to be to be able to craft that item
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How is that not effectively the same thing? I mean, it makes sense from an in-universe perspective. But it seems to effectively be what Starfinder does (just magic instead of technology).
Well, it's definitely still scaling damage, but it means you don't need a half dozen different named versions of each weapon. It also doesn't necessarily mean weapons have a set level.
I think it's pretty different, even if it results in a few of the same things.
My preference would be automatic scaling items. So that greatsword I'm using at 15th level? It's the same one I got at 3rd level. I haven't had to apply any special magic to it. It's just I'm able to use it so much better because I'm much more skilled.
They have said they're aiming for something where you can keep a certain piece of gear your whole career, but I think it's more Legacy Weapon than 'don't need magic weapons'.
I hated Starfinder equipment scaling. Oddly, I think it is pretty much the same as Pathfinder equipment scaling, just with tech instead of magic. The BP of starships (which had no corresponding credit value) didn't help, either. It's just that the game balance screws were so obviously showing. You don't want to see the game balance screws every time you consider what kind of weapon to buy. Time for an Advanced Baton? 540,000 credits, please. Ugh.
Some SF systems do not use abstract wealth systems and some do. Traveler handles "high level" play pretty well with battle dress and plasma rifles, as well as outrageously expensive ships, and it does not have any wealth abstractions. Fragged has an interesting "current resources" abstraction. Neither of these systems expect every single character to trade in their azimuth laser pistols at 6th Level, which is just jarring.
I’m not totally sure what you mean by the balance screws showing. Do you mean that the mechanic was too gamey?
Also confused what you mean by Starfinder Expecting you to trade in your laser pistol at 6th level? Did you feel like Starfinder encouraged upgrading your weapons more often than Pathfinder does?
Yes. Too gamey, despite the fact it was really close to what PF does, but I didn't find PF to be particularly gamey.
PF encourages upgrades through better magic, while Starfinder encourages upgrades by buying new ones when the tier unlocks. Again, it is surprisingly similar to PF, but I just hated it in the Starfinder setting. I'm not exactly sure why it was such a glaring problem for us.
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Buying a whole new weapon every couple levels feels very different to me from increasing the enchantment on the same weapon you bought at level 3.
So does having 5 differently named variants of the same weapon, just at different levels -vs- magic just making a weapon hit exponentially harder.
They have said they're aiming for something where you can keep a certain piece of gear your whole career, but I think it's more Legacy Weapon than 'don't need magic weapons'.
Crafting magic items costs a single skill feat, right? So one could plausibly just have someone in the party take that feat and then pay gold for the ingredients needed to enchant the weapon rather than paying a stranger to enchant it or buying a new one?
Perhaps if "enchanting a weapon to +3" is something you need a crafter of a certain level to manage, it's something that can only plausibly be done by a PC?
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Again I didn’t have an issue with the way Starfinder did it or the way it is flavored. The game takes place in a post-industrial revolution setting where weapons are mass-produced, so you are going to have more consistent availability of higher quality items and more variance allowed in their quality for different price points. I liked giving each different level a brand that they could be recognized as being clearly bargain level or a premium weapon. Players weren’t forced to use weapons of their level, you could use ones above your pay grade if you could afford them, but the levels were a guide as to what levels would be likeliest to afford that item at the earliest.
Buying a whole new weapon every couple levels feels very different to me from increasing the enchantment on the same weapon you bought at level 3.
So does having 5 differently named variants of the same weapon, just at different levels -vs- magic just making a weapon hit exponentially harder.
Fair enough.
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I definitely prefer the flavor of how PF2 is doing it to the flavor of how SF did it. When I think of scifi stories, I think of characters who are mostly keeping the gear they had near the start of their adventure, just getting better with it, occasionally tweaking and upgrading it without replacing it. When they do replace it, like Luke making a new lightsaber, it's a more personal item rather than a more powerful one. Han didn't go through a succession of better and better blasters, Worf doesn't have a better phaser than the rest of the security team.
The starfinder weapon system would be suited to, well, the world of Diablo or Destiny. But isn't really applicable to most stories.
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HP are likely to go up a bit since PCs have more and the PC rules can be used for enemies. Static damage may also go down a bit.Wow! That's a lot of damage.
Are monster hit points being increased to compensate? Or, will they stay about the same?
If they stay the same, this will make fights go faster!
Ah, but as CR increases, PF1 monsters quickly grow to way higher HP than a PF1 PC would have (ask anyone who tries to design a PF1 NPC for a codex to roughly meet the HP benchmarks in the Bestiary how well that goes X_X). Monsters in PF2 at certain levels do have a decent touch more HP than PF1 monsters of the same level, but at many levels they're actually kind of close, and at some of the highest levels, the PF2 monsters actually have fewer.
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Ah, but as CR increases, PF1 monsters quickly grow to way higher HP than a PF1 PC would have (ask anyone who tries to design a PF1 NPC for a codex to roughly meet the HP benchmarks in the Bestiary how well that goes X_X). Monsters in PF2 at certain levels do have a decent touch more HP than PF1 monsters of the same level, but at many levels they're actually kind of close, and at some of the highest levels, the PF2 monsters actually have fewer.
Thanks for the clarification, Mark! That's useful info to work with.
I find the equipment scaling to be one of the best things in Starfinder. Way more clearer for the DM.
But it makes sense in a universe with low magic. The scaling and items are a replacement for not having to build your equipment like in PF1 with all the magic items. It would have less sense to do the same in PF2.
Werid I could have sworn I saw something about a "Master" level sword vs a "Legendary Sword". Which also matched up with its the new levels of Skills they seem to be rolling with.
Edit: tried looking for it for a bit, couldn't find it. I was sure a blog or comment talked about either tiered swords or at the very least some kind of Tool that to me made it sound like they were adding another level or two beyond just "Masterwork" and "Magic".
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Werid I could have sworn I saw something about a "Master" level sword vs a "Legendary Sword". Which also matched up with its the new levels of Skills they seem to be rolling with.
Edit: tried looking for it for a bit, couldn't find it. I was sure a blog or comment talked about either tiered swords or at the very least some kind of Tool that to me made it sound like they were adding another level or two beyond just "Masterwork" and "Magic".
This is correct. Those are the levels of quality of mundane weapons. They provide a bonus to hit (of +1 to +3), but none to damage. Whether magic weapons provide a bonus to hit is still an open question, actually (a Legendary +5 longsword might hit at +3 for 6d8 damage, for example).
Great. Another reason to instantly dump a weapon for for the first better upgrade that comes along.
"This sword was handed to me by my father, and his father. I have freckles to reforge it, to empower it with magical engeries and to, to..., huh you know this is a +5 axe..." *toss*.
Rather out ther but I'm playing with a friend now who's all about tricking out his sword he crafted. It's symbolic as it shows how he's grown as both a fighter and a smith as he levels. New system? Well we just looted something way better for you.
Granted, I reserve full judgment until after the Crafting rules are shown.
I really like weapons in Starfinder. The only thing I dislike is how they're named and organized. I'd rather something was called a "level 5 pulse pistol" instead of "azure-class pulse pistol."
Contributor
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Great. Another reason to instantly dump a weapon for for the first better upgrade that comes along.
"This sword was handed to me by my father, and his father. I have freckles to reforge it, to empower it with magical engeries and to, to..., huh you know this is a +5 axe..." *toss*.
Rather out ther but I'm playing with a friend now who's all about tricking out his sword he crafted. It's symbolic as it shows how he's grown as both a fighter and a smith as he levels. New system? Well we just looted something way better for you.
Granted, I reserve full judgment until after the Crafting rules are shown.
I'm hoping we'll be able to refine existing weapons with the right investment or mcguffin. I'm thinking of LoZ: Link to the Past, where you could have the Master Sword reforged twice. ^_^
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Great. Another reason to instantly dump a weapon for for the first better upgrade that comes along.
They've specifically noted that they're working on a system to allow you to keep a single weapon or the like for the entire game. So hopefully there'll be something to prevent this if you don't want to play the 'constant weapon replacement' game.
Didn't the PF Unchained rules have an option for scaling magic items where you held on to the same sword/armour/whatever and it gradually became more powerful as you did? (I'm away from home so I don't have access to the book to check this). That strikes me as a possible way forward: "My ancestral sword has now drink the blood of many enemy, and it is now a +3 weapon"
I hated Starfinder equipment scaling. Oddly, I think it is pretty much the same as Pathfinder equipment scaling, just with tech instead of magic. The BP of starships (which had no corresponding credit value) didn't help, either. It's just that the game balance screws were so obviously showing. You don't want to see the game balance screws every time you consider what kind of weapon to buy. Time for an Advanced Baton? 540,000 credits, please. Ugh.
Some SF systems do not use abstract wealth systems and some do. Traveler handles "high level" play pretty well with battle dress and plasma rifles, as well as outrageously expensive ships, and it does not have any wealth abstractions. Fragged has an interesting "current resources" abstraction. Neither of these systems expect every single character to trade in their azimuth laser pistols at 6th Level, which is just jarring.
I’m not totally sure what you mean by the balance screws showing. Do you mean that the mechanic was too gamey?
Also confused what you mean by Starfinder Expecting you to trade in your laser pistol at 6th level? Did you feel like Starfinder encouraged upgrading your weapons more often than Pathfinder does?
Yes. Too gamey, despite the fact it was really close to what PF does, but I didn't find PF to be particularly gamey.
PF encourages upgrades through better magic, while Starfinder encourages upgrades by buying new ones when the tier unlocks. Again, it is surprisingly similar to PF, but I just hated it in the Starfinder setting. I'm not exactly sure why it was such a glaring problem for us.
A difference is that in PF, only price stops you to buy new gear. In SF, there is level too. In PF you can buy a high level, low cost item I'd you have the gold (except for Scrolls and Wands, which have a max level per settlement). I SF there are some things that you could pay, but you can't buy because your level. That's a break of the suspension of disbelief for many. It is not hard to house rule out, but it is there