Even taking into account archetypes,the bardic performance list has a mix of visual and audible components,which means you need one of each type of performance to be able to use that to contribute. But taking 3 or more seems like a waste of skill points you could put somewhere else.
Perhaps the only reason why you'd take more than two perform skills,as I see it,is if you want to use versatile performances to really compensate for your lack of other skills,which itself results from having too many perform skills.
Also,would a deaf and/or mute bard be allowed to compensate for a lack of audible components in performances and verbal components in spells by using sign language or telepathy? By beaming the words directly into the target's head,as it were.
(Disregarding the fact that instruments can provide audible components as well.)
Nell Nellancholy wrote: Perhaps the only reason why you'd take more than two perform skills,as I see it,is if you want to use versatile performances to really compensate for your lack of other skills,which itself results from having too many perform skills. Beside roleplay reasons, that's the only reason I can think of, too. Usually versatile performance is considered a good deal: You get double benefit from your ranks (one Perform skill covers two other skills), and it changes some skills to be Charisma dependant. A bard's Charisma will usually be higher than their Wisdom (Sense Motive) or Dexterity (Acrobatics, Fly).
It will depend on the bard. An Archeologist bard does not need any perform skills, but most other archetypes do.
There are three class features that require ranks in perform. They are Countersong, Distraction and Versatile Performance. Since you gain more Versatile Performances as you level up a higher level bard may want more perform skills to take advantage of these. If you GM allows retraining that would be the best way.
The hard part is getting the right perform skills to get you what you want. Countersong and distraction have lists of what perform skill qualifies. Versatile Performance allows each perform skill to be used in place of two specific skills. What often happens is the perform skills you want to use with Versatile Performance are on the same list for Countersong, or Distraction. This means when you get your second Versatile Performance you either invest in three performance skills or lose out on a class feature.
If you don't give up Versatile Performance in your archetype, you can just pump up one and apply it to the other ones you might need. If you don't have Versatile Performance, you will probably need at least Oratory and Dance, possibly a third if you actually depend on an instrument.
But you always want 10 ranks in Oratory as quickly as possible for Discordant Voice.
There are a few magic items that require specific Perform checks as well, such as the lyre of building. Maybe some masterpieces as well?
Item activation for one.
There's an archetype that allows a massive boost to one skill, based on how many performances you've maxed out. I used it to demonstrate how one could pass 200 in diplomacy checks.
While I wouldn't have brought it up, someone mentioned archeologist as a reason to need zero. May as well show the other spectrum.
Versatile Performance is pretty much the only reason aside from role-play reasons. For exploiting that 3rd Versatile performance I recommend not putting any ranks into that 3rd skill, but buy a scarlet and blue sphere ioun stone (Int booster). This comes with aa skill, so make that skill your 3rd preform skill.
Cavall wrote: There's an archetype that allows a massive boost to one skill, based on how many performances you've maxed out. I used it to demonstrate how one could pass 200 in diplomacy checks. And that archetype is...?
Anarchy_Kanya wrote: Cavall wrote: There's an archetype that allows a massive boost to one skill, based on how many performances you've maxed out. I used it to demonstrate how one could pass 200 in diplomacy checks. And that archetype is...? I think Cavall was talking about the argent voice archetype, possibly using expanded versatility to get Diplomacy back into the mix?
Blahpers is correct.
I went on a huge thing in another thread some half a year ago when someone asked if you could top 100 in diplomacy.
I showed yes, quite easily. Using just that mixture.
You could even do it with bluff or sense motive, but diplomacy seemed the most important to the thread.
Anyways, here is the basics.
"Dedicated Performance (Ex): An argent voice can call upon the training of the Chelish opera to influence and scrutinize his foes. At 2nd level, an argent voice must choose Perform (sing) as his versatile performance skill. At 6th level, the argent voice gains a bonus on Perform (sing) checks made as part of a versatile performance equal to the number of additional Perform skills in which he has the maximum number of ranks possible at his level. This bonus increases by 1 per maximized Perform skill at 10th level and every four levels thereafter, to a maximum of a +4 bonus per fully ranked Perform skill other than Perform (sing) at 18th level."
So 4 skills at max at level 14 is + 12. 8 at 18 is 32. Pretty impressive, and yes... a reason to have more than one perform.
Though so. How are you applying the bonus to Diplomacy?
EDIT: I see it now. You're using Expanded Versatility. Can you even use it with the Ardent Voice's altered Versatile Performance? Technically it's a different ability.
Quote: must choose Perform (sing) as his versatile performance skill. You still get the 2nd level Versatile Performance.
Yes, but can you even use Expanded Versatile Performance on an altered version of VP? You replace your ability to choose a new Perform skill, which you don't do anymore as an Ardent Voice, so...
Alter doesn't mean replace.
Having something that alters mercies still allows you fears that work with mercies, for example.
Versatile performance is no different. Though personally I assume if you did you'd skip the bonus for that level boost, that seems logical
Assuming you're correct, your calculations are a little bit off. You added one point too many per Perform skill maxed. It should be 4 x 2 at 14th and 8 x 3 at 18th. At least when we're talking Diplomacy. You get the full bonus 4 points if you don't take Advanced Versatility.
That's assuming you adjust by logic rather than what is exactly written.
Which is so vastly opposite of RAW I just went with what's written.
Still let's just pretend its bluff/sense motive and the numbers work out with zero issues or hypotheticals.
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