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I'm planning on making a fourth PFS character and making them into a skill monkey. So far I have:
Human
Str 10, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 20, Wis 10, Cha 10
Traits: Student of Philosophy
Human alternate racial feats: Focused Study (because it gives three feats (eventually) for the price of 1). Fast Learner? The other one that gives 2 languages per Linguistics? Thoughts?
Level 1: Empiricist Investigator 1
This gets a quick d6 to any skill 5 times a day, with Knowledge being free. I don't see much reason to up this class, as I don't expect to be making more than 5 or 6 rolls a day with other skills (and INT will go up, making this closer to 8 uses/day, which is plenty)
Level 2-3: Mindchemist Alchemist 2
This is needed for the double INT bonus on knowledge skills. Considering there are 10 such skills, this is a 50 skill point bonus. (80 eventually). At this point every skill has one rank in it (29, except maybe fly).
Level 4+: Archeologist Bard - completes the skill list, all skills except fly are now class skills.
They get a +1 to all rolls (not just knowledge) as well as Bardic Knowledge, so at level 4, this is just like having a straight 4th level Bard for 4 rounds a day, maybe a little better. They eventually get rogue talents, which means at 15th (PFS probably won't get here) I can take the advanced rogue talent that lets me take 10 on skills even under duress. In the meantime, I get Rogue talents which basically allow for pretty decent versatility when combined with Bard spells. Disable Device and Perception also get an additional half level boosts as well. Uncanny Dodge and Evasion? yes please.
The plan is to get an INT boosting item, and add level 4 and 8 to INT, then 12 to CON. Or some combination thereof.
Saves at level 4 will be:
Fort 3 Ref 7 Wil 4, BAB suffers a bit(+1), but with the additional +1 from the Archeologist, he can make a +2 attack (so slightly worse than a regular Bard in this respect at level 4). At level 5, it is "equivalent" to the normal +3 any of these classes would have.
Anything you would do different to make this a little better (if possible)? I don't see a d8 making a huge difference, not being able to add it to "every skill" as it will pretty much be added to most anyway (8 uses a day is plenty for PFS modules).
I will probably go back to Empiricist for a second level for the INT bonus to the other skills it substitutes out INT for. it doesn't get doubled (not knowledge) but still gets a beefy change from +0 to +5 (+8 eventual). 4 1/2 skills = 22.5 skill point difference (36 eventually).
Are there feats along the way I can take that change skills to int based? Or ones that do more than skill focus (+3 to one)? I am thinking that taking Traits is better than skill focus, in that they would give a +4 total bonus (+2 each). But that is limited by "kinds" and not being able to take more than one of the same kind of trait. Suggestions are welcome. Thanks!
Do consider "Evangelist" prestige class is based around the concept of skills aswell... and with the 2nd level ability i would consider this to be the most useful prestige class in the entire game.
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I understand you want to focus on skills, but going mainly Bard and not being able to cast spells is quite a waste, not to mention that you will be completely useless in combat.
I suggest you go pure Empiricist, or maybe 1 Swashbuckler Inspired Blade / X Empiricist Investigator with decent Dex, so that you are useful in combat while still having a high bonus on Dex-based skills. Precise Treatment lets you use Int for Heal checks, and the Perceptive Tracking Investigator talent lets you use Perception (which is Int-based) to follow tracks instead of Survival.
Another option would be Inquisitor with Conversion Inquisition (or a similar Inquisition/archetype), to get Wis on Knowledge and social skill checks. If your archetype gets rid of Monster Lore and/or you want another domain, then you can keep Student of Philosophy, pick Pragmatic Activator, and dip one level into Unsworn Shaman with the Lore spirit to port all Int-based skills onto Wisdom.
You can look at this thread for more insights
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I can't imagine any party being happy that this character joined it.
Totally useless in combat. While you have skills, that will likely just step on other players wanting to do things when it isn't in combat, so in any given situation your character is either useless or a glory hog.
+2 to Attack is not 'normal' for any 4th level character that isn't primarily going to be casting spells. a 4th level bard would be +4 from base attack and inspire courage and almost certainly have additional bonuses from stats and feats.
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I understand you want to focus on skills, but going mainly Bard and not being able to cast spells is quite a waste, not to mention that you will be completely useless in combat.
Where do you see that Archeologist loses spells? They lose Bardic Performance, not Spells. Unless they are somehow the same thing. I don't see it that way since they are listed separately. So I am not giving up spells when I take Archeologist Bard archetype. Am I wrong?
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Do consider "Evangelist" prestige class is based around the concept of skills aswell... and with the 2nd level ability i would consider this to be the most useful prestige class in the entire game.
This would be fine if I weren't planning on putting points into a few skills. And may certainly be a "way to go". Sacrificing a lot of BAB to go this route, losing one effective level in the "main" class. But the benefits if I do dump skills is pretty decent: +4 to any unranked skills is equivalent to +1 skill point. Here's how I figure that - you normally would put one point in, and all skills are already class skills, so you would have +4. You get +4 "for free" with no ranks, but with no ranks, you lose the +3 for having ranks, so that is a wash. You end up with just the skill point you changed to a different skill.
Now, at 11th or so, you are going to have 10-12 skills capped out, and with this ability you could "cap" out one more. So that is basically like having the human "extra skill point/level" again - at the cost of BAB and one level of your main class. But then, if you get to 10th with this, you get a +2 (+4 for knowledge skills) to Int, and that makes it worthwhile (skill monkey wise).
Of course, I'd have to buy the book / pdf, because I don't already own it. RWP
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Precise Treatment lets you use Int for Heal checks, and the Perceptive Tracking Investigator talent lets you use Perception (which is Int-based) to follow tracks instead of Survival.
Heal now Int, thanks for the link, I will look through it. How does the whole Int to Wis work with adding INT a second time to skills? Seems like it would nerf that ability completely (suck out 50-80 effective skill points). No thanks.
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Where do you see that Archeologist loses spells? They lose Bardic Performance, not Spells. Unless they are somehow the same thing. I don't see it that way since they are listed separately. So I am not giving up spells when I take Archeologist Bard archetype. Am I wrong?I understand you want to focus on skills, but going mainly Bard and not being able to cast spells is quite a waste, not to mention that you will be completely useless in combat.
With Cha 10 you can't cast spells apart from cantrips, so you would practically have a whole class feature that you cannot use. And even if you were able to cast very few spells (let's say 2nd level spells with a +2 Cha item), they would be irrelevant in terms of DC, CL or, in general, spell power, given the heavy multiclassing.
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I can't imagine any party being happy that this character joined it.
Totally useless in combat. While you have skills, that will likely just step on other players wanting to do things when it isn't in combat, so in any given situation your character is either useless or a glory hog.
+2 to Attack is not 'normal' for any 4th level character that isn't primarily going to be casting spells. a 4th level bard would be +4 from base attack and inspire courage and almost certainly have additional bonuses from stats and feats.
Why totally useless? They still get spells. They have the same effective BAB as a regular Bard / spellcaster. What's useless about knowing everything about a monster before you attack it? (This is the primary use of knowledge checks in PFS - because, outside of metagaming, you don't know anything about any monster ever...)
A 5th level (not 4th) Bard would be +3 BAB, plus spells. This character is +2 BAB at 5th, with a +1 LUCK more from the Archeologist ability, making it effectively the same BAB as a normal 5th level caster character. And it's saves are +1 better. And base saves are way better. I don't see this as "useless" at all. Or, I should say, no more useless than any other low level caster.
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With Cha 10 you can't cast spells apart from cantrips, so you would practically have a whole class feature that you cannot use. And even if you were able to cast very few spells (let's say 2nd level spells with a +2 Cha item), they would be irrelevant in terms of DC, CL or, in general, spell power, given the heavy multiclassing.Where do you see that Archeologist loses spells? They lose Bardic Performance, not Spells. Unless they are somehow the same thing. I don't see it that way since they are listed separately. So I am not giving up spells when I take Archeologist Bard archetype. Am I wrong?I understand you want to focus on skills, but going mainly Bard and not being able to cast spells is quite a waste, not to mention that you will be completely useless in combat.
Alright, I can sub over a point of CON to cast 1st level spells. And use an adder item to cast 3rd later. That problem can be solved a bit. I haven't looked at the Bardic spell list very much, but I believe having spells, even at crappy CL is preferable to not having them. This would effectively make them a "Paladin" or "Ranger" in regards to spell strength. Oh, also they have bombs that do 6-8 points of splash damage. Which, in combat, more than makes up for a 2d6 spell, IMHO. Hitting a square is easier than an AC anyway.
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If I do go Evangelist, at 12th I end up with a BAB +7, and a +2 boost due to LUCK from the Bard Archeologist, making the "effective" BAB a +9 (no, I know it is not the same, they lose CMB/CMD). But they also gain the luck bonus on "saving throws, skill checks, and weapon damage rolls" so I think that is a fair enough trade out. I will have just hit 3rd level spells, so will need the +2 adder item for sure now. The bonus abilities granted from the regular class you get really make this shine a bit more (basically getting all the archeologist benefits to help make them a more efficient fighter/combat character).
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A 5th level (not 4th) Bard would be +3 BAB, plus spells. This character is +2 BAB at 5th, with a +1 LUCK more from the Archeologist ability, making it effectively the same BAB as a normal 5th level caster character. And it's saves are +1 better. And base saves are way better. I don't see this as "useless" at all. Or, I should say, no more useless than any other low level caster.
A 5th level Archaeologist Bard with 14 Cha would have +3 BAB, plus 6 cantrip known, 5 1st level spell slots (4 spell known), 3 2nd level spell slots (3 spell known), with +2 luck bonus to various stuff (including saves). He can roll all knowledge checks even if untrained, with a +2 bonus from Bardic Knowledge (which scales with level), +2 from Heroism (that he can cast); by putting a sinlge rank on the important Knowledge skills(Local, Nature, Arcana, Religion), the bonus goes up to +8, or +10 if the luck is on (and at the beginning of a fight, when you roll to know the enemy weaknesses, it usually is), which is more than enough to get a decent amount of information. More than that is just a waste. Meanwhile, Heroism applies to saves and attack rolls, and since this Bard has not dumped all his physical stats, he probably has 16 on Str (or Dex, if he's ranged), his attack bonus from class features and stats will be something around +10.
Meanwhile, your "bard" can only cast 2 1st level spells (he knows only 3), and drink a few 1st level extracts, all with terrible CL, which translates in terrible duration (as I am assuming you are considering only buffs, and not even thinking of casting spells with a save). He has lost 3 levels worth of Bard's class features, FCB, 4 skill ranks, and has a humongous Int score which does not synergize at all with his main class. At the beginning of the combat he can roll a (presumably trained) Knowledge check with a +20 bonus to know the weakness of the enemy (not that the previous Bard with +10 on the check could not), but then he cannot exploit such knowledge as he cannot cast any relevant spell, he only has +3/+4 to hit, and even on a hit he has no mean to deal any significant damage, hence wasting an action.
And despite all your efforts to be a top skill monkey, you still managed to miss two of the best skill monkey-oriented mechanics in the game:
- Ceaseless Observation, that Empiricist Investigators get at 2nd level, which let you use Int on many important skills.
- Versatile Performance, that vanilla Bards get at 2nd level, which let you use Perform bonus on 2 (or more) important skills.
Final advice, pick ONE ability stat you want to focus on, and pick your class accordingly: Int --> Empiricist Investigator / Mindchemist, Wis --> Inquisitor / Hunter / Ranger, Cha --> Bard. There are many adjustments you can make to personalize your concept, such as dips, traits, PrC and so on, but do not overdo with reckless multiclass and stats all over the place.
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A 5th level (not 4th) Bard would be +3 BAB, plus spells. This character is +2 BAB at 5th, with a +1 LUCK more from the Archeologist ability, making it effectively the same BAB as a normal 5th level caster character. And it's saves are +1 better. And base saves are way better. I don't see this as "useless" at all. Or, I should say, no more useless than any other low level caster.A 5th level Archaeologist Bard with 14 Cha would have +3 BAB, plus 6 cantrip known, 5 1st level spell slots (4 spell known), 3 2nd level spell slots (3 spell known), with +2 luck bonus to various stuff (including saves). He can roll all knowledge checks even if untrained, with a +2 bonus from Bardic Knowledge (which scales with level), +2 from Heroism (that he can cast); by putting a sinlge rank on the important Knowledge skills(Local, Nature, Arcana, Religion), the bonus goes up to +8, or +10 if the luck is on (and at the beginning of a fight, when you roll to know the enemy weaknesses, it usually is), which is more than enough to get a decent amount of information. More than that is just a waste. Meanwhile, Heroism applies to saves and attack rolls, and since this Bard has not dumped all his physical stats, he probably has 16 on Str (or Dex, if he's ranged), his attack bonus from class features and stats will be something around +10.
Meanwhile, your "bard" can only cast 2 1st level spells (he knows only 3), and drink a few 1st level extracts, all with terrible CL, which translates in terrible duration (as I am assuming you are considering only buffs, and not even thinking of casting spells with a save). He has lost 3 levels worth of Bard's class features, FCB, 4 skill ranks, and has a humongous Int score which does not synergize at all with his main class. At the beginning of the combat he can roll a (presumably trained) Knowledge check with a +20 bonus to know the weakness of the enemy (not that the previous Bard with +10 on the check could not), but then he cannot exploit such knowledge as...
We're not going to see eye to eye on the multi-class thing. The reason for doing it is clear: stat monkey benefits. 2 level dips that get you 50 base (5x10) skill bonus, which scales to 100 (+10 int bonus) skill bonus at level 8 (+2 from cognatin, +1 from +2 int stat, +2 from +4 int adder item). No other class can even come close. But, unfortunately, there is a cost of 3 whole spells... whoopity doo. So that class HAS TO be added to make a skill monkey.
As for the other dipping: You are adding 1d6 to 10 skills straight out, and 1d6 5/day. So this is potentially 15-70 more skill points. Why it is my second choice? Because it is not a guaranteed bonus. But again, it far outweighs the +1 you might get for bardic performance from NOT multi-classing (by up to 5 points per skill on a good roll). Should I take that to level 2? Definitely. I just don't know when to fit it in. The four skills that get converted to INT skills means a +20 more skill bonus, so it beats just going up in Bard. But you get +1/2 level in Bard. So if you take it, you are costing a bard +1 for the +1d6. So that mechanically is definitely the way to go.
And "sucking in combat" is not a huge deal, IMHO. I have been playing a Sorc1/Magus that has not rolled above a 11 in three scenarios. True Strike has come in handy. He's still killed things with first level spells.
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What levels are your other PFS characters? Because as some of the other posters have pointed out, a skill monkey that cannot contribute effectively in combat is basically handicapping the party and putting them at a disadvantage.
The thing about PFS is that almost any character concept can "work" through L5--the early tier scenarios are (generally) very forgiving. After L5, when PCs are expected more and more to pull their own weight, "support" or "skill monkey" builds can be problematical when they can't contribute meaningfully in combat. After L9, if you can't contribute in combat, everyone else has to work to make up for you.
Now imagine if your character was the 5th person, kicking the scenario from the 4-person to the 6-person adjustment--can your character contribute enough to counter that adjustment? Otherwise it's basically a 4-person party taking on an encounter balanced for 6 people.
Right now, your character dips THREE 3/4 BAB classes and has 10s in STR and DEX. So, martial prowess is not your forte. You have an INT of 20...but your main spell progression (bard) is CHA-based--so offensive spells due to low DCs are off the table.
You are going to get 3-4 combat encounters per PFS scenario--some can be avoided, some can't. What can you do when it can't be avoided? Every character should have a main option in combat, a back up option in combat and an out-of-combat role. While your OOC role is clear, your in-combat abilities are severely lacking.
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First of all "50 skill bonus", "100 skill bonus" means literally NOTHING. You are the first person I read of that stacks skill bonuses ACROSS skills and uses it as a figure of merit. Guess what: it isn't, and it makes no sense.
That being said, if you like so much Int, why you don't just go, as I have already said multiple times, Investigator? You don't need twice Int to Knowledge checks when you have free inspiration. But hey, let's pretend that a +5 bonus to Knowledge (over a base of 1d6+10 already) is somehow worth the 2-level delay in everything else, why making BARD your primary class?! With 10 Charisma! This is simply bad.
Also, counting the Cognatogen as a permanent bonus is laughable. It only lasts 20 minutes, which covers usually only 1 fight in PFS, and each time you use it you get -2 penalty on Strength and, obviously, you have no way to heal it by yourself, since you decided to go Bard. So yeah, it's either you quickly burn a 4500gp wand of lesser restoration, or you consider your Str score being practically 8 or less.
I'm planning on making a fourth PFS character and making them into a skill monkey. So far I have:
Human
Str 10, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 20, Wis 10, Cha 10Traits: Student of Philosophy
Human alternate racial feats: Focused Study (because it gives three feats (eventually) for the price of 1). Fast Learner? The other one that gives 2 languages per Linguistics? Thoughts?
Level 1: Empiricist Investigator 1
This gets a quick d6 to any skill 5 times a day, with Knowledge being free. I don't see much reason to up this class, as I don't expect to be making more than 5 or 6 rolls a day with other skills (and INT will go up, making this closer to 8 uses/day, which is plenty)Level 2-3: Mindchemist Alchemist 2
This is needed for the double INT bonus on knowledge skills. Considering there are 10 such skills, this is a 50 skill point bonus. (80 eventually). At this point every skill has one rank in it (29, except maybe fly).Level 4+: Archeologist Bard - completes the skill list, all skills except fly are now class skills.
They get a +1 to all rolls (not just knowledge) as well as Bardic Knowledge, so at level 4, this is just like having a straight 4th level Bard for 4 rounds a day, maybe a little better. They eventually get rogue talents, which means at 15th (PFS probably won't get here) I can take the advanced rogue talent that lets me take 10 on skills even under duress. In the meantime, I get Rogue talents which basically allow for pretty decent versatility when combined with Bard spells. Disable Device and Perception also get an additional half level boosts as well. Uncanny Dodge and Evasion? yes please.The plan is to get an INT boosting item, and add level 4 and 8 to INT, then 12 to CON. Or some combination thereof.
Saves at level 4 will be:
Fort 3 Ref 7 Wil 4, BAB suffers a bit(+1), but with the additional +1 from the Archeologist, he can make a +2 attack (so slightly worse than a regular Bard in this respect at level 4). At level 5, it is "equivalent" to the normal +3 any of these...
Pick up a few levels of Wizard after lvl 4 imo (but probably not more than 5 levels of Wizard) - you already have the Int to make this good. You'll get fly as a class skill, so you'll have all skills. A familiar will give you another +3 to a skill of your choice. You'll pick up all kinds of nifty spells to help with your various checks depending on how many levels you take, like Read Magic, Identify, Comprehend Languages, Tongues, Charm Person, Disguise Self, Know Peerage, Invisibility, Fly, Dimension Door.
So if I were you, I'd probably get only 1 level, or get 3 levels, or 5 levels in Wizard, just for the bump up in spell level choices.
After a level or 3 in Wiz, you might want to go Rogue or Spy. They each have 8 SP per level and full sneak attack progression. As a skill monkey, you're not going to contribute to combat as well as the others, and you could actually become a liability to the group if you get into trouble and can't fend for yourself properly. Rogue/Spy will help you do this. You may even want to pick up Imp Feint, just in case you ever have to fight something 1v1.
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Bard does seem like the odd choice here. I know they get scaling bonuses to skills, and Archaelogist's luck is good, but sticking Investigator would provide a LOT of benefit, even with the 2 level dip into Mindchemist if you want to keep that. To me, Investigator is by far the best skill class in the game.
Level 2 of Empiricist combined with Student of Philosophy means you're getting INT to Disable Device, Perception, Sense Motive, and Use Magic Device, plus all uses of Diplomacy, and Bluff for convincing people of a lie. Using your system of totaling skill bonuses, that's an extra 5*4=20 skill ranks (not counting Dip/Bluff). It also leaves you with only 3 CHA based skils (Handle Animal, Intimidate, and Perform).
Level 3 Investigator means you get an Investigator talent. Take Expanded Inspiration. Now you get free Inspiration on Diplomacy, Heal, Perception, (trained) Professions, and Sense Motive. Ignoring the professions, that's an equivalent extra 4-24 effective bonus.
I know you've figured 5-8 Inspiration is enough, but it's not. I make many more than 5-8 Perception checks alone in scenarios. And the actual Inspiration points are much more valuable being used to attack, study an opponent a 2nd time, for saving throws, or eventually to recover extracts using Inspired Alchemy. In the last scenario I played (admittedly, my last scenario at level 11 and the Scarab Sages capstone), I made at least 40-50 skill checks, and possibly many more than that once checking for traps and searching rooms is taken into account. I had to actually spend Inspiration on a skill check once, because I was getting it for free on so many rolls. I spent it on saves, mostly, and recovering extracts.
5th level Investigator, you can take Underworld Inspiration and add Bluff, Disable Device, Disguise, Intimidate, and Sleight of Hand to the list. Another effective 5-30 skill bonuses At this point the number of skills you can use Inspiration on for free is larger than the number you actually need to spend a point on.
Try to have Heightened Awareness going whenever you can. That's another +2 to all knowledge skills (and Perception, but it won't stack with Eyes of the Eagle). Try to have Heroism going for another +2. You can do that as a 2nd level extract thanks to Alchemical Allocation. Try to have Investigative Mind going. Now you can roll twice and take the best results on up to your CL Knowledge checks.
Studied Combat scales faster than Archaeologist's Luck. Also, there's no limit to how much you can use Studied Combat (other than studying the same opponent twice), while as an Archaeologist with an eventual 14 CHA, you'll only get 6 rounds/day of Archaeologist's luck.
If you're open to being something other than Human (elf, probably), you'd lose the two Skill Focuses at 1st and 8th (16th level isn't really part of the thought process here), but you could take Breadth of Experience for another +2 to all Knowledge Skills and to be able to make all Profession checks untrained.
I used variations of all of this on my Investigator, and he tends to overshadow the group on most skill checks. I didn't intend it to get to that point, and I largely stopped investing in skill related resources after 6th level, but I got there anyway. He's suboptimal in a lot of ways (gnome, and also Empiricist didn't exist when I made him during the playtest, so I dipped Sleepless Detective to get Int to various things), and yet still incredibly good at skills.
And here's the thing... at 6th level, I realized that he was not keeping up in combat. He could get by for a few rounds, but when Inspiration ran out, he wasn't very effective. So I switched directions and changed tactics. Instead of fighting with a rapier, I started using alter self, then monstrous physique when I had it. I started cycling Studied Strike. If I hit on the last attack of the round, expend Studied Strike. Use Quick Study to study the enemy again the next round if they live. Adding half level to-hit and using natural attacks means even with 3/4 BAB he has incredibly good accuracy on 3-5 attacks/round depending on what I turn into. In other words, I figured out that he could be good at just about everything skill-related, and still be not just a competent melee character, but a good melee character. This is not an optimal build, but if you want to see the choices I made and the end result, he happens to be the one character I have posted online at myth-weavers. Buffs are not included in the numbers there, so 1 rank Knowledge skills, for example, go to +17+1d8 when buffed plus roll twice take the best up to 11 times.
Anyway. The most important thing is that you play a character you have fun playing, and if that's an Archaeologist/Mindchemist/Empricist, then go for it. What I think several people here are trying to tell you is that you're sacrificing more than you need to in the pursuit of more skills.
You can also take the extra investigator talent feat to get underworld inspiration at third.
Human with focused study vs. Half-elf: Human gets an extra two skill points per level (1 for skilled and 1 for favored class bonus) and skill focus at 8th. Half elf gets an extra +1 on inspiration rolls every 4 levels, immune to sleep, +2 vs enchantment, +2 to perception and low light vision. It depends on if you want breadth or depth. If you really want to multiclass, half elf does get multi-talented, so you get your favored class bonus on 2 classes. If you do, and you are not taking investigator to fourth, you can take the extra skill point per level for your favorite class bonus.
You do make a big deal about getting all the skills as class skills. The ones you don't get as an investigator are Fly, Handle Animal, Ride, Survival and Swim. The only one I would see dropping points into is maybe survival for tracking, and if you really want that, there is the investigator talent perceptive tracking which lets you use perception instead of survival for tracking purposes.
I'd say that even if you want to multiclass to stay with investigator to at least 4th level, especially if you are going half-elf. There are some amazing investigator talents you can get with extra investigator talent, but you need to have the class feature to take them.
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First of all "50 skill bonus", "100 skill bonus" means literally NOTHING. You are the first person I read of that stacks skill bonuses ACROSS skills and uses it as a figure of merit. Guess what: it isn't, and it makes no sense.
That being said, if you like so much Int, why you don't just go, as I have already said multiple times, Investigator? You don't need twice Int to Knowledge checks when you have free inspiration. But hey, let's pretend that a +5 bonus to Knowledge (over a base of 1d6+10 already) is somehow worth the 2-level delay in everything else, why making BARD your primary class?! With 10 Charisma! This is simply bad.
Also, counting the Cognatogen as a permanent bonus is laughable. It only lasts 20 minutes, which covers usually only 1 fight in PFS, and each time you use it you get -2 penalty on Strength and, obviously, you have no way to heal it by yourself, since you decided to go Bard. So yeah, it's either you quickly burn a 4500gp wand of lesser restoration, or you consider your Str score being practically 8 or less.
Well. That's like. Your opinion. Man.
hint: I'M NOT MAKING A COMBAT CHARACTER. I already have a sorcerer/magus who can do 10d6+20 touch attack damage (at range if needed), twice that on a 15-20 crit, using truestrike is autoconfirm most days... 2 spells, 2 rounds, dead mobs. Happy? Now leave my skill monkey alone with the combat talk.
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You can also take the extra investigator talent feat to get underworld inspiration at third.
Human with focused study vs. Half-elf: Human gets an extra two skill points per level (1 for skilled and 1 for favored class bonus) and skill focus at 8th. Half elf gets an extra +1 on inspiration rolls every 4 levels, immune to sleep, +2 vs enchantment, +2 to perception and low light vision. It depends on if you want breadth or depth. If you really want to multiclass, half elf does get multi-talented, so you get your favored class bonus on 2 classes. If you do, and you are not taking investigator to fourth, you can take the extra skill point per level for your favorite class bonus.
You do make a big deal about getting all the skills as class skills. The ones you don't get as an investigator are Fly, Handle Animal, Ride, Survival and Swim. The only one I would see dropping points into is maybe survival for tracking, and if you really want that, there is the investigator talent perceptive tracking which lets you use perception instead of survival for tracking purposes.
I'd say that even if you want to multiclass to stay with investigator to at least 4th level, especially if you are going half-elf. There are some amazing investigator talents you can get with extra investigator talent, but you need to have the class feature to take them.
I understand the reasoning behind staying investigator: to apply inspiration to more skills "free" without using inspiration. I understand that. I also don't think that it is a benefit. Some people have pointed out "you use skills way more than 5-8 times in a scenario." Yes. But the typical skills you use more often are knowledge skills (and these are the ones that let you identify monster abilities to begin with). You can use inspiration on them free from level 1. So 20 of the 40 rolls were probably "free" inspiration rolls at level 1. 5-8 more means that the majority of them were able to be rolled with inspiration. And I am not hugely concerned with getting all the skills as class skills as "can you do it" - in reality, getting the last ones to class skills means a 15 point skill boost (+3x5). Coming from Investigator, that is a 2.5 level (6+int) skill boost. Half-elf multiclassing is not a huge deal if I only get 2 skill points out of it, the 6 from the feat is better (number wise). But the benefit of low light vision and better saves make it look worthwhile. If I did take investigator to 4th, that would be 4 skill points and +1 on inspiration (+10, +1 on 5-8 rolls). So I see the point, there. But it is also costing a +1 from every knowledge skill to do so (-10). Bardic knowledge. As well as 2 levels of spell progression and 1/2 a rogue talent.
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If you're open to being something other than Human (elf, probably), you'd lose the two Skill Focuses at 1st and 8th (16th level isn't really part of the thought process here), but you could take Breadth of Experience for another +2 to all Knowledge Skills and to be able to make all Profession checks untrained.
If you are a half-elf, can you take Breadth of Experience since you count as ELF for feats? That may be the way to go. I would also consider going Dwarf (honestly) because of the Darkvision. And a skill monkey Dwarf just sounds funny. Breadth of Experience, put no points in the knowledge skills, points in the 12-13 other skills to cap them, then take the skill that gives +4 to untrained (knowledge) which he can roll because of the BoE feat. Hmmm. +4, +5/+5(+8/+8), +2, +1d6, +d20. 23 min. 48 max. (+2 for luck, +4 for bardic knowledge).
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If you're open to being something other than Human (elf, probably), you'd lose the two Skill Focuses at 1st and 8th (16th level isn't really part of the thought process here), but you could take Breadth of Experience for another +2 to all Knowledge Skills and to be able to make all Profession checks untrained.If you are a half-elf, can you take Breadth of Experience since you count as ELF for feats? That may be the way to go.
You would qualify for the "Elf" part of the prereqs. Breadth of Experience is in the Advanced Players Guide, so it shouldn't be restricted to the specific race in the way that Advanced Race Guide options are. So Half-elf should qualify or Human with Racial Heritage (though Human probably can't be old enough). You would have to be a "venerable" half-elf, which you can start as in PFS (up to 125 years old). The good/bad news is that you don't take the stat adjustments for age in PFS (so no physical stat penalties, but also no mental stat boosts).
My order of preference for feats to boost skills would be:
Deific Obedience Irori (+4 to all knowledge skills)
Breadth of Experience (+2 to all knowledge and profession skills and can make those checks untrained)
Dilettante (+2 to all Knowledge checks if you have 1-5 ranks in that skill - Doesn't stack with Skill Focus)
I would also consider going Dwarf (honestly) because of the Darkvision. And a skill monkey Dwarf just sounds funny.
Gnomes can also get Darkvision as an alternate racial trait, and all they give up is low-light vision and a +2 to Perception. They can get Gift of Tongues to get +1 Diplomacy and Bluff and 2 languages per rank in Linguistics, and they can trade Obsessive for Academician for a +2 to any one Knowledge skill. Despite not being a +2 INT race, they are surprisingly good for skills. If you stick with Bard, the +2 CHA would help. Fey Thoughts is sadly not PFS legal, or that would be a way to add Fly to class skills. Being Small, the penalty to strength doesn't hurt too much, and you can always grab a wand of ant haul if needed.
But the typical skills you use more often are knowledge skills (and these are the ones that let you identify monster abilities to begin with). You can use inspiration on them free from level 1. So 20 of the 40 rolls were probably "free" inspiration rolls at level 1. 5-8 more means that the majority of them were able to be rolled with inspiration.
I should say 40-50 skill rolls where it mattered, and that's probably a low estimate. Perception is rolled more than 10 times a scenario pretty much as a given, but at this point my Perception is +32 (+33 buffed from +2 heroism and -1 mutagen), so the extra 1d6 rarely matters. There was a roll that needed a DC50 Perception, which I made. I think Inspiration made a difference there. But it is also great to have free Inspiration on Bluff, Diplomacy (also often rolled 10+ times a scenario for me), Disable Device, and Sense Motive. Other than the starting "free" Inspiration skills, those are the ones I use it for most. To me, on a non-fighting character actual spent Inspiration points are going to be most valuable on saving throws. Even if you never take Combat Inspiration (to reduce the cost to 1 point), 2-3 extra 1d6s on Fort or Will saves can make a huge difference. And you're not going to avoid saves just by avoiding melee/combat.
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hint: I'M NOT MAKING A COMBAT CHARACTER.
Well by that standard this character is a rousing success.
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Well. That's like. Your opinion. Man.
"Your" as pertaining to every person who replied to you?
hint: I'M NOT MAKING A COMBAT CHARACTER. I already have a sorcerer/magus who can do 10d6+20 touch attack damage (at range if needed), twice that on a 15-20 crit, using truestrike is autoconfirm most days... 2 spells, 2 rounds, dead mobs. Happy? Now leave my skill monkey alone with the combat talk.
Try to tell that to the poor souls who will end up having to accept in their party, against their will, a literal know-it-all unable to do anything useful. I guess they'll be happy to pick up the slack. PFS is so much fun, isn't it?
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Well. That's like. Your opinion. Man."Your" as pertaining to every person who replied to you?
hint: I'M NOT MAKING A COMBAT CHARACTER. I already have a sorcerer/magus who can do 10d6+20 touch attack damage (at range if needed), twice that on a 15-20 crit, using truestrike is autoconfirm most days... 2 spells, 2 rounds, dead mobs. Happy? Now leave my skill monkey alone with the combat talk.Try to tell that to the poor souls who will end up having to accept in their party, against their will, a literal know-it-all unable to do anything useful. I guess they'll be happy to pick up the slack. PFS is so much fun, isn't it?
Yes, I am aware that it is all "murder hobos" in here, the wonderful PFS society, where if you take more than two rounds to kill something your build is "all wrong." Yeh, I know... fun fun fun...
Don't worry, I'll stack him in +2 or +3 Plate armor and a shield so at least he will be hard to hit. OK? 3k for muleback cords and a heavyweight belt and he can actually wear it. And thanks to 10-20 ranks in swim, he won't drown in it.. like "your" fighter just did.|
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hint: I'M NOT MAKING A COMBAT CHARACTER.Well by that standard this character is a rousing success.
This is what it ends up as at 20th (not PFS, per se)
BAB +13 +3 to hit and damageFort +8, Ref +16, Wis +11 base saves
1st-5th level Bard spells (+4cha/int adder item)
8 1st level mutagens / day
Bombs 1d6+8, 9 splash DC 19
Divine Obedience, 3 boons
two rogue talents, one adv rogue talent
all the rest of the feats from 3rd to 20th a character normally gets
236 total skill ranks.
Bardic Knowledge +7 make untrained
Archeologist Luck +3 all skills
Double INT Bonus (+6 stat, +2 item adder) (+16 to knowledge checks)
Human focused study +6 ea to 3 skills if 10 ranks (+18)
Human Fast learner (human) +15 skill ranks.
Dwarf Breadth of Knowledge +2 know and prof checks (+22) (after looking at this, I would probably go Human after all: 33 ranks vs 22)
Cognation +4 INT (+2 bonus) for 20 min
Spiritual form 20min / day +4 INT (+2 bonus)
Int on Disable Device, Perception, Sense Motive, and Use Magic Device checks.
Inspiration on Knowledge, Linguistics, or Spellcraft 1d6 free if trained
Inspiration 9/day 1d6 to any d20 roll.
Int skills: Rank + 8 INT, +4 Cognation, +4 Spiritual Form, +3 Luck
Knowledge skills (untrained): 0 (ranks), +16, +4 Cognation, +4 Spiritual Form, +3 Luck, +7 Bardic Knowledge, 1d6, +4 sacred no rank skills
-Knowledge Skills Untrained, no ranks, 38+1d6+1d20, take 20 2/day (no take 10, no free inspiration) 40 on a 1, 64 max rolls.
20 remaining skills? 10 ranks in each = 200. Five capped (20) skills: Perception, UMD, Stealth. Acrobatics. Diplomacy
Focused Study: Perception, UMD, Stealth (or Acrobatics) +6 each
So all other skills: 10 (or 20), +3 Luck, +3 Class skill, +0 (stat), 1d6, 1d20. 16/26+d6+d20. (would consider making this so they all start at 20, +d20)
Perception: 20 (ranks), +3 Luck, +3 Class Skill, +8 (int), 1d6, 1d20, +6 vs traps, +7 Archeologist +6 Focused study, 53 +d6 +d20 (47 normal, 53 vs traps) - just missed the 80 Perception without any more magic boosting.
Stealth: +32
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Yes, I am aware that it is all "murder hobos" in here, the wonderful PFS society, where if you take more than two rounds to kill something your build is "all wrong." Yeh, I know... fun fun fun...
Don't worry, I'll stack him in +2 or +3 Plate armor and a shield so at least he will be hard to hit. OK? 3k for muleback cords and a heavyweight belt and he can actually wear it. And thanks to 10-20 ranks in swim, he won't drown in it.. like "your" fighter just did.
Lol, nothing of this comment makes any sense.
- combat is part of PFS, and your duty as a player is to do your part in it. There is a difference between being "murder hobo" and not-a-dead-weight.- there is no such thing as a "plate armor", it's either a breastplate, a full plate, a half-plate, a field-plate, a stone plate or a Hellknight plate.
- +2 armor costs more than 4150gp, +3 costs more than 9150gp, add 3k from the other items and we get to ~13k, an amount of money you're not going to see anytime soon (or, more probably, ever with this build).
- muleback cord takes the shoulder slot: bye bye cloak of resistance; heavyweight belt takes the belt slot: bye bye relevant physical stat boost belt.
- you need to be level 10 or 20 to get respectively 10 or 20 ranks in any skill.
- in case you meant 10-20 bonus to swim, let me help you calculate the real bonus: ranks + 8 (racial from Monkey-fish extract) - 3 (minimum, from wearing a breastplate, more for heavier armors or shields), which is far from the value you claimed. Of course the same armor penalty applies to attack rolls.
- nobody talked about a fighter.
- none of this actually matters as this character won't be a threat to anyone during a combat. He could just as well "fight" naked, as nobody will be bothered to waste an attack action on him.
This is what it ends up as at 20th (not PFS, per se)
Do you actually think that you are able to able to contribute in any way against a CR20 creature with that? You won't hit, if you did you wouldn't do any significant damage, you don't have any spells that will meaningfully effect your opponents. All you can do is a few buffs, with less effect and duration that one would expect at that level and you will have less spells per day than one would expect as well.
Sure, it is nice to identify creatures, but it doesn't take nearly as much specialization as you have but into things to achieve that (and I believe it is best to spread this around the party anyway, let everyone have a specialty or two) and often it isn't all that important anyway. In a campaign where demon fighting is a theme, everyone is prepared for the basics anyway, beyond that knowing that an opponent has a certain special ability doesn't really change that much.
If you really want a character like this, I strongly suggest you save it for when you will be playing a game with a set group of people, who understand and agree to try and build characters to compensate. In PFS where the assumption is that every character will be able to pull their weight this is way overspecialized for skills and way under performing for combat. Bringing this character to such a game won't win you any friends.
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This is what it ends up as at 20th (not PFS, per se)
Do you actually think that you are able to able to contribute in any way against a CR20 creature with that? You won't hit, if you did you wouldn't do any significant damage, you don't have any spells that will meaningfully effect your opponents. All you can do is a few buffs, with less effect and duration that one would expect at that level and you will have less spells per day than one would expect as well.
Sure, it is nice to identify creatures, but it doesn't take nearly as much specialization as you have but into things to achieve that (and I believe it is best to spread this around the party anyway, let everyone have a specialty or two) and often it isn't all that important anyway. In a campaign where demon fighting is a theme, everyone is prepared for the basics anyway, beyond that knowing that an opponent has a certain special ability doesn't really change that much.
If you really want a character like this, I strongly suggest you save it for when you will be playing a game with a set group of people, who understand and agree to try and build characters to compensate. In PFS where the assumption is that every character will be able to pull their weight this is way overspecialized for skills and way under performing for combat. Bringing this character to such a game won't win you any friends.
Seriously? True strike goes a long way to "hitting" as I've stated before. And if I do, I will be hitting him with what? Wet fish. Yep. Or maybe 9 more feats, two rogue talents and one advanced rogue talent? That is a "bit" of wiggle room to make this character's combat better. And that is, of course, if you ignore the 5th level bard spell(s) going off at a DC 25-30. I mean, seriously, what is the role of a Bard in combat against a CR 20 mob? How long do the buffs have to last? Am I pulling the weight for a weak team who can't solo a CR 20 in 1-2 rounds? Well, who built the fighter wrong then? Come on. Who we kidding with this kind of talk. Meanwhile, you walk through the rest of the adventure knowing every thing about every monster and every lore roll... egads! The horror.
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This is what it ends up as at 20th (not PFS, per se)
Wow, a 20th level multiclass Bard who can't cast spell, can't damage anything with proper CR, but with high skill bonuses. Meanwhile the majority of the singleclass characters are essentially gods thanks to their 20th level cap feature alone.
True strike goes a long way to "hitting" as I've stated before.
True Strike applies only to one attack, and needs a round to be cast. Who needs iteratives, haste, TWF and the like when you can make one attack every 2 rounds with negligible damage?
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This is what it ends up as at 20th (not PFS, per se)Wow, a 20th level multiclass Bard who can't cast spell, can't damage anything with proper CR, but with high skill bonuses. Meanwhile the majority of the singleclass characters are essentially gods thanks to their 20th level cap feature alone.
Guess I'll just have to spend all my PP retraining into a god. LOL. This is the price of multiclassing. IN PFS IT IS MOOT.
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IN PFS IT IS MOOT.
Then why did you use a 20th level build to prove that this PFS build does not suck? In a home game you can play an animated potato if your GM allows it and your teammates are ok with that. This doesn't mean that in a home game this build is less terrible, but at least your teammates know that they have to pick up the slack and the GM can design encounters accordingly.
On the other hand in PFS you don't know who you're going to play with, and the encounters are hard-coded into the adventure, so it's your duty not to be a dead weight for the other players, jeopardizing their fun and chances of success.
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Yes, I am aware that it is all "murder hobos" in here, the wonderful PFS society, where if you take more than two rounds to kill something your build is "all wrong." Yeh, I know... fun fun fun...
Don't worry, I'll stack him in +2 or +3 Plate armor and a shield so at least he will be hard to hit. OK? 3k for muleback cords and a heavyweight belt and he can actually wear it. And thanks to 10-20 ranks in swim, he won't drown in it.. like "your" fighter just did.
Lol, nothing of this comment makes any sense.
- combat is part of PFS, and your duty as a player is to do your part in it. There is a difference between being "murder hobo" and not-a-dead-weight.
- there is no such thing as a "plate armor", it's either a breastplate, a full plate, a half-plate, a field-plate, a stone plate or a Hellknight plate.
- +2 armor costs more than 4150gp, +3 costs more than 9150gp, add 3k from the other items and we get to ~13k, an amount of money you're not going to see anytime soon (or, more probably, ever with this build).
- muleback cord takes the shoulder slot: bye bye cloak of resistance; heavyweight belt takes the belt slot: bye bye relevant physical stat boost belt.
- you need to be level 10 or 20 to get respectively 10 or 20 ranks in any skill.
- in case you meant 10-20 bonus to swim, let me help you calculate the real bonus: ranks + 8 (racial from Monkey-fish extract) - 3 (minimum, from wearing a breastplate, more for heavier armors or shields), which is far from the value you claimed. Of course the same armor penalty applies to attack rolls.
- nobody talked about a fighter.
- none of this actually matters as this character won't be a threat to anyone during a combat. He could just as well "fight" naked, as nobody will be bothered to waste an attack action on him.
- Granted combat is part of PFS, and so far as I've seen, if you aren't optimized to be a murder hobo, you are dead weight (literally, usually in 1 hit by the APL+4CR monsters they throw at you). So I have to find ways with the 9 feats and 3 rogue talents to help out. OK. Granted.
- thank you "word police" I knew there was something I liked about you. 12 AC from full plate armor (there, we merged) +2 from class abilities, 20 ac. Plus shield, etc... gets to about a 30 (eventually).- +2 armor at 5th level is pretty easy, there is even an adventure at 2nd that lists it on a chronicle sheet so you can buy it when you hit 22 fame (4-6 per level = 4-5.6 lvl).
- aware of the 1 rank/level limit, thanks.
- real bonuses will, of course, be modified by actual items. My point is that I can have 20 ranks in swim. Which, compared to a fighter who would be dumping half their entire skill ranks (40 at lvl 20) to do the same. Say a fighter puts in 1 rank, 26 str (lvl 20, yeh I know it could be higher) = +9, +3 (somehow made it a class skill) = 13 base. Minus armor. Compare that to 20 ranks, +3 class, skill, no other bonus, in the same armor. Clear winner is?
- don't need a belt to boost str. That's just for hitting and stuff. Which, as I already explained, I have covered with low level spells and mutagens (and class boosts). At +16 to hit, plus magic items, this character is no worse than most other bards or certainly spell casters at level 20. Melee wise. And keep in mind 9 feats and 3 rogue talents still available.
- presumed "combat person", lemme guess, you also think all those builds are crap and not worth a spit because they can't possibly kill things in one hit like a mage.
- good, then he survives the encounter. Consider the 5 PP he saved you by recovering your body for raise dead a bonus to the entire build! You're welcome dead guy!
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IN PFS IT IS MOOT.Then why did you use a 20th level build to prove that this PFS build does not suck? In a home game you can play an animated potato if your GM allows it and your teammates are ok with that. This doesn't mean that in a home game this build is less terrible, but at least your teammates know that they have to pick up the slack and the GM can design encounters accordingly.
On the other hand in PFS you don't know who you're going to play with, and the encounters are hard-coded into the adventure, so it's your duty not to be a dead weight for the other players, jeopardizing their fun and chances of success.
Moo. You sound like a broken record at this point. You don't like the build so I can't play it. Whatever man. That's. Your. Opinion. Man.
I've also been told that my "zapper" character will ruin some people's fun and that I shouldn't play that either. No "fun" surviving every combat, I guess.
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I'm not going to get into the combat side of things. As long as you aren't spending your turn in combat saying, "I delay, because I don't have anything I can do," then you can likely figure out some way to be useful. You might run into trouble (as I did with my Investigator) if the other members of your party also aren't combat focused characters, but unlike me, maybe as a Bard you'll be able to buff one of them up enough to get through it.
On the skills side of things... I feel like you're putting too much weight on Archaeologist's Luck. You do not gain additional rounds of Archaeologist's Luck in the same way that a Bard gains rounds of Bardic Performance. You have 4+CHA Mod uses per day, period. Ever. You don't get more rounds unless you raise your Charisma I'm not sure what your CHA will be at 20. It looks like maybe 15, so you can cast your 5th level spells? We'll call it 16. Based on that, at 20th level, that character will have 7 rounds of Archaeologist's Luck per day. Much like with Inspiration, I don't think that's nearly enough to be useful for Skill checks. Especially not if you're also counting it toward fighting. It's true you'll be able to double or triple up some rounds (multiple knowledges to identify creatures, plus perception, plus attacking in one round, for example), but there are a lot of times you just won't be able to use it at all. If the skill check is made over any amount of time (Disable Device takes several rounds, sometimes minutes, for example. Clever Explorer helps with this, but not enough on everything), you're out of luck. Most research or ritual related Knowledge checks take place over 10 or more minutes, sometimes an hour. +3 7 times a day is a really small benefit. I'd almost think you're better off sticking with non-archetype Bard. Inspire Courage buffs the party (ie, someone that deals significantly more damage than you), so it's less likely you're going to see the kind of complaints you're seeing here. Also, you don't lose Versatile Performance. So instead of 10 ranks in Acrobatics and Fly, for example, you can put 20 ranks in Perform (Dance) and have it count as both. And it solves the Fly not being a class skill issue. You wouldn't want to swap Diplomacy and Bluff for a Perform, since those are going to be Int skills, but Percussion would give you Handle Animal and Intimidate. So instead of 10 ranks in each of Acrobatics, Fly, Handle Animal, and Intimidate, you could have 20 ranks in Dance and Percussion and effectively have 20 ranks in 6 skills instead of 10 ranks in 4.
You'd miss out on the Rogue Talents, but most Rogue Talents aren't that great. Especially if you don't have Sneak Attack.
You can trade out your 3rd and 4th Versatile Performances to either add a skill onto one of the others (Disguise, then Escape Artist, maybe) netting you another 40 free equivalent ranks, or to pick up Weapon Focus (which I would have spent one of the Rogue Talents on) by way of Advanced Versatile Performances.
The biggest loss to me would be Evasion. Your Perception will be high enough that Trap Sense really won't matter, and you can already disable magic traps from Investigator. Uncanny Dodge is nice, but it comes up far less than Evasion, and you don't have any DEX bonus to lose, so it really only matters for sneak attacks.
I'm not certain how you're getting a DC25 for your 5th level spells. DCs don't go up with caster level. Just spell level. Assuming the 16 CHA, that puts your 5th level spell DC at 18. 19 with Spell Focus, and 20 with Greater Spell Focus, if you take those.
Keeping all of these multi-classes, I would suggest something like:
Mindchemist 2/Empiricist 3/Bard 1/Evangelist 10/Finish with Bard
Or you could go with Empiricist 2, so you can still get into Evangelist at 6. The boost you get from converting all of those skills to INT skills is significant. It would be nice to have a 3rd level to have access to Extra Investigator Talent, and even nicer to have level 4 for Studied Combat, but that starts taking you pretty far away from Bard.