Hey,
I'm sorry if this post is in the wrong spot. Please, feel free to move it if it is.
Anyway, I just purchased PACG for my iPhone, and I love it; I do have the physical copy aswell, but I don't have anywhere to play it in my small apartment.
I have a couple of questions I was hoping you'd be able to help me with.
1. What is a decent party setup? Yes, I know this question has been asked a thousand times. I however don't like splitting up my party and would like advice on creating a party that does really well by sticking together. Up until now, I've been using Valeros, Lini, and Seoni. I experimented with Ezren in Seoni's spot, but I found his lack of blessings too much of a hinderance.
I think 3 is the right amount of characters for me, but if you have a suggestion for a dex/ranged character I'd appreciate it. Valeros has been filling that role for now.
2. If I were to forego my 3-4 team what would be a good 2 party option? I just don't know how to properly balance a team that small.
3. And finally, how should I build/play Tup? I was so excited when I saw that he was included, but I have no idea how to build him especially since one of his powers requires you to banish a card.
Thanks,
Grabnar
This series of blog posts will be very helpful, especially posts #11, #12, and #13.
Something to keep in mind with "banish" powers is that they are often very good for getting rid of those boons that you don't need. In Tup's case, the second core power mitigates the "banish" power, allowing you to draw a new spell when you banish a spell. Tup has relatively high Arcane (Charisma 1d12 + 1), so you should be able to acquire spells relatively easily to either banish or to replace spells that you like. Granted, this becomes a crap shoot at higher levels when you've banished a spell you really like, but it's not so very bad. Basically, Tup's "banish" power is just him throwing magical fireballs around without necessarily needing a spell with the Attack trait. I've never played him, myself, so others will have much better advice on setting Tup up.
This series of blog posts will be very helpful, especially posts #11, #12, and #13.
Something to keep in mind with "banish" powers is that they are often very good for getting rid of those boons that you don't need. In Tup's case, the second core power mitigates the "banish" power, allowing you to draw a new spell when you banish a spell. Tup has relatively high Arcane (Charisma 1d12 + 1), so you should be able to acquire spells relatively easily to either banish or to replace spells that you like. Granted, this becomes a crap shoot at higher levels when you've banished a spell you really like, but it's not so very bad. Basically, Tup's "banish" power is just him throwing magical fireballs around without necessarily needing a spell with the Attack trait. I've never played him, myself, so others will have much better advice on setting Tup up.
I feel like an idiot. I didn't even think of it as a way to get rid of the boons I don't want.
Another thing to consider is that Tup doesn't need to have any Attack spells while at low levels (B and 1 definitely, maybe 2). The "banish" power basically equates to a low level Attack spell. So you can fill his deck out with buff spells that, due to Tup's first power, serve two purposes (maybe it can be used to augment someone's Dexterity, and maybe it can be used to light someone on fire). In fact, having few or no dedicated Attack spells is probably a good way to maximize his powers. And with his second power, you'll just draw a new spell to replace the banished one (assuming you're banishing spells for the first power). Once he chooses a role, you'll have to adjust your deck accordingly. Tup Bale-Flame of Naughtiness won't need dedicated Attack spells until you get to the ones that are Arcane + 3d6 or better, if then (his first role-based power allows him to add even more Fire damage); whereas Tup Prince of Darkness will need some dedicated Attack spells much sooner. Regardless, any party that includes Tup needs to ensure that any character that might be at the same location as Tup, including Tup himself, has some form of resistance to Fire damage.
So my basic read of Tup is that he's good for getting rid of unwanted boons and, at lower levels, having lots of buffing spells. And he's good for starting fires, of course. ;)
Thanks. You've been a lot of help, honestly. Do you have any answers for my first two questions by chance? If not, that is absolutely fine because you are the first person to provide any info on Tup, and I've looked.
If you don't like splitting them up at different locations, you are going to want a smaller party. With a larger party you pretty much HAVE to split up in the typical scenario (defeat and corner the villain).
Typically, you want to diversify your skills. In particular Melee, Ranged, Arcane, and Divine. Your 3 characters have all those covered (though Lem is your "Ranged" weapon use and is a little weak in that department).
There isn't anyone that is going to use Ranged weapons well right off the bat that is going to want to group up at a location, because your choices are either Merisiel (who has a power that only works when no one else is at her location) or Harsk (who has a power that only helps characters at other locations). Lem and Sajan can both be built to use Ranged weapons, but it will take a feats, particularly at least 1 card feat.
If you were to go with only 2, I'd do just Valeros and Lem.
But really, find a set of characters you enjoy. The game is winnable with pretty much every combination.
Well,I've been messing around with Tup today seeing as I am currently in the hospital, and I quite enjoy him. Any recommendations on what cards would be best for him?
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I've been messing around with Tup today seeing as I am currently in the hospital
That is often how people get into the hospital.
If you don't like splitting them up at different locations, you are going to want a smaller party. With a larger party you pretty much HAVE to split up in the typical scenario (defeat and corner the villain).
Typically, you want to diversify your skills. In particular Melee, Ranged, Arcane, and Divine. Your 3 characters have all those covered (though Lem is your "Ranged" weapon use and is a little weak in that department).
There isn't anyone that is going to use Ranged weapons well right off the bat that is going to want to group up at a location, because your choices are either Merisiel (who has a power that only works when no one else is at her location) or Harsk (who has a power that only helps characters at other locations). Lem and Sajan can both be built to use Ranged weapons, but it will take a feats, particularly at least 1 card feat.
If you were to go with only 2, I'd do just Valeros and Lem.
But really, find a set of characters you enjoy. The game is winnable with pretty much every combination.
Could you define what a "smaller" party is? I've been up all night trying out different parties, and I am having trouble finishing with four characters. Do I just need to git gud?
Big party, (more than two) needs to split so that They can cover larger ground and win by temporary closing locations.
Dang, so my three man would have to split? Any other good two class combos other than Valeros and Lem? Something about Lem bothers me. I'm also kind of dumb in that I need at least one male in my party because I like to RP in my head.
EDIT:
Obviously, I'd like the group to cover as much as possible ie. melee, arcane, divine, etc.
My first run through PACG was with Kyra, Merisiel, and Harsk. That was challenging due to lack of Arcane and Intelligence (especially in 5 and 6), so I added Seoni. If I was going to play with a three-character party, I'd probably run Lem, Merisiel, and Valeros. Alternately, I might try running Lem, Harsk, and Seoni.
I generally play with four characters (in both PACG and PA) and, except when very unfortunate, I don't have many problems winning scenarios. I'm often down to the last 5 cards of the blessings deck, which constitutes a close game in my mind. The difference, though, is that I split my party at the start (except for those characters that are best when they are with other characters). Splitting the party early allows me to choose characters based on the location rules, usually tailored for either the "At This Location" or the "When Closing" rule, but very rarely for the cards in the location. This means that I'm usually able to close at least two locations relatively early. Also, by having other characters at locations that they can close, I can "drive" the villain to one of a handful of locations, usually a location that is more difficult/painful to close. Towards the end, I'm able to consolidate characters when appropriate (e.g., putting Lem and/or Valeros at the villain's location to provide help to the chosen closer) while keeping other characters apart for their own brand of help (e.g., Harsk and his bows). If I know that a villain is more difficult to defeat when a character is alone (e.g., Justice Ironbriar), I'll try to get multiple characters at that location. If I know that a villain can do BYA damage to all or other characters at a location (e.g., Galenmir), I'll try to put just the closer at that location. There are other considerations (e.g., villains with multiple checks to defeat might have two or more characters so that I can assign one of the checks to another character, etc.).
When you keep your party together at the same location, instead of driving the villain to limited locations, you run the risk of chasing the villain. The more characters there are in the party, the worse this risk becomes. If you don't have a way of examining locations, you're taking an awful lot of risk. The mitigating strategy here is to keep the party consolidated until two locations are closed, and then split the party to find and corner the villain before you run out of time.
I think that the important thing to keep in mind is that the PACG (and by extension Pathfinder Adventures) is not a roleplaying game. While it shares imagery and setting concepts with the PFRPG, it's a different game and requires different strategies and tactics. It's fun to roleplay things in PACG, but the two games are different. It's like comparing Hearts to Spades. Both games are played with the same deck of cards, but they are played differently. If you try to play PACG with a purely PFRPG perspective, you're going to handicap yourself unnecessarily.
My first run through PACG was with Kyra, Merisiel, and Harsk. That was challenging due to lack of Arcane and Intelligence (especially in 5 and 6), so I added Seoni. If I was going to play with a three-character party, I'd probably run Lem, Merisiel, and Valeros. Alternately, I might try running Lem, Harsk, and Seoni.
I generally play with four characters (in both PACG and PA) and, except when very unfortunate, I don't have many problems winning scenarios. I'm often down to the last 5 cards of the blessings deck, which constitutes a close game in my mind. The difference, though, is that I split my party at the start (except for those characters that are best when they are with other characters). Splitting the party early allows me to choose characters based on the location rules, usually tailored for either the "At This Location" or the "When Closing" rule, but very rarely for the cards in the location. This means that I'm usually able to close at least two locations relatively early. Also, by having other characters at locations that they can close, I can "drive" the villain to one of a handful of locations, usually a location that is more difficult/painful to close. Towards the end, I'm able to consolidate characters when appropriate (e.g., putting Lem and/or Valeros at the villain's location to provide help to the chosen closer) while keeping other characters apart for their own brand of help (e.g., Harsk and his bows). If I know that a villain is more difficult to defeat when a character is alone (e.g., Justice Ironbriar), I'll try to get multiple characters at that location. If I know that a villain can do BYA damage to all or other characters at a location (e.g., Galenmir), I'll try to put just the closer at that location. There are other considerations (e.g., villains with multiple checks to defeat might have two or more characters so that I can assign one of the checks to another character, etc.).
When you keep your party together at the same location, instead of driving the villain to limited...
So how would Valeros, Lini, Seoni/Tup, and Merisiel/Harsk do? I'd have the first three stay together while Merisiel/Harsk go do their own thing. Are there better options than what I have listed?
Should I even bother with Tup? The I was only drawn to him because he was a goblin pyromancer.
And for the Merisiel/Harsk option? Which one is better? Is there a better character out there that can be by themselves for a bit, or shold I focus on splitting my team of four into two teams?
The Valeros, Lini, Seoni/Tup, and Merisiel/Harsk team would work fairly well. I'm not well-versed in using Lini (learning how to play her now), but her decent Wisdom would make her a suitable healer. If you're go to keep the first three characters together, I recommend Seoni over Tup (Tup can cause damage to other characters at his location). If you opt for Tup, make sure that Harsk also has a cure spell (in case Tup causes Lini to lose hers). I like Merisiel for her ability to take care of Dexterity challenges, whereas I like Harsk for his ability to help others out in combat. Merisiel can also evade encounters that she can't handle, so she might be a safer option for you. Since you plan on keeping the first three characters together, Valeros can help them, so Harsk isn't as necessary for providing help.
Tup and the other goblin characters bring an element of mayhem and chaos to party dynamics. They're fun to play, but there is a lot of green-on-green damage taking place that you have to be prepared for both in terms of healing abilities as well as in how you use (and deal with) the party. Imagine the Three Stooges on a fantasy quest (but with more fire).
So, if I run with Valeros, Lini, Seoni, and Merisiel, I should cover almost anything that comes my way?
That should be pretty good. You have most of the basic skills covered, the only two that are d8 or less are Con and Int. Lini can probably cover both of those with a power feat or two in each and her Animal bonus (along with help from the other characters).
So, if I run with Valeros, Lini, Seoni, and Merisiel, I should cover almost anything that comes my way?
If I may....
If you have a party that "covers almost anything that comes your way", the game may start to lack some fun. Part of the fun is to find ways around a barrier or monsters that no one has a natural good chance to handle. If you defeat "automatically" everything the game throws at you, that may start to be boring at some point.
Well, I think I am doing something wrong as I cannot win anymore now that I have moved up to four characters and splitting them up. Any suggestions on a good three man team, or better character recommendations?
So, if I run with Valeros, Lini, Seoni, and Merisiel, I should cover almost anything that comes my way?If I may....
If you have a party that "covers almost anything that comes your way", the game may start to lack some fun. Part of the fun is to find ways around a barrier or monsters that no one has a natural good chance to handle. If you defeat "automatically" everything the game throws at you, that may start to be boring at some point.
With all due deference to our charming Continental friend -- I have no idea what you are talking about.
A balanced party never defeats everything automatically. For one thing, nothing guarantees Merisiel encounters the barriers (for instance).
A balanced party just makes sense, IMHO. For making close checks, for making best use of acquired boons, for experiencing as many aspects of the game as possible, and other reasons.
Moreover: the OP is playing the app. Increasing difficulty is built right in. There's no danger of the game always being too easy.
The more characters you have, the more you have to spend extra resources (blessings/allies) to explore in order to win. If time is an issue, I'd recommend to stay at 2 or 3 characters.
I also think you're stressing too much about optimizing the game; RotR can be completed with any party once you have some experience and a better deck for each character, so just choose the characters you find interesting and get better while playing the game; the game has a steep learning curve at the beginning, so you can't do much besides getting an intuition by experiencing things yourself. For diversity, you can pick any 3 out of Melee/Ranged/Divine/Arcane, but you should probably take divine for access to cure.
The rest is just starting in the B scenarios and playing repeatedly the newest scenario until you win or get a better deck. This game also involves luck, so if you just keep at it, you'll win eventually. The beginning is definitely the hardest since your deck sucks. Apart from that, read through the blogs Brother Tyler linked.
Imho, us telling you how to exactly build your party and play the game goes fundamentally against the spirit of the game. You don't need to win every time to make progress as long as you pick up boons along the way, so that's totally fine.
Well, I think I am doing something wrong as I cannot win anymore now that I have moved up to four characters and splitting them up. Any suggestions on a good three man team, or better character recommendations?
Four is one of the best character counts to win with. Three might be a tad easier. If your party is Valeros, Lini, Seoni, and Merisiel, the character to drop depends on your problem. If Seoni is dying, drop her. If you are losing on time, drop Valeros (who explores most slowly). You can't really drop Lini while keeping Seoni, because Seoni will need healing sometimes. Merisiel seems too useful to drop.
Be sure that:
-- Merisiel is alone at her location whenever possible, and uses her sneak attack when she needs the oomph. If she does not have a weapon in hand, she should sneak attack, or, if the odds look bad, she should evade (although that costs you time; you can afford this more in 3-player than in 4).
-- Lini has 2 Cures at least, I hope? Lini should discard for Bear form to win fights (if she hasn't an Attack spell in hand), then Cure herself before long. Lini should also be ready to Cure Seoni.
-- Seoni is a powerhouse. She can explore quickly and fights well. She just needs healing.
-- Valeros is soooo sloooow in the early game, but should always wins Combat fights, and is very tough to kill. If he has two weapons in hand, recharge his weapon to fight (and even do so if he has just one weapon if you are fighting the villain or a location henchman, although keep an eye on whether the close check is a Combat in the second case).
Thinking about it, dropping down to 3 characters might be a good choice for you. I think your dilemma is more one of tactics than of characters or character count, but fewer characters makes for a simpler game, and that may be what you need. If you are losing on time, discard allies and even blessings to explore.
EDIT: Ninja'd by yet another Continental friend... I was not deliberately disregarding his comment on the spirit of the game (but, um, now I will).
What scenario are you playing and what is your strategy for starting locations and character sequence?
Well, I think I am doing something wrong as I cannot win anymore now that I have moved up to four characters and splitting them up. Any suggestions on a good three man team, or better character recommendations?Four is one of the best character counts to win with. Three might be a tad easier. If your party is Valeros, Lini, Seoni, and Merisiel, the character to drop depends on your problem. If Seoni is dying, drop her. If you are losing on time, drop Valeros (who explores most slowly). You can't really drop Lini while keeping Seoni, because Seoni will need healing sometimes. Merisiel seems too useful to drop.
Be sure that:
-- Merisiel is alone at her location whenever possible, and uses her sneak attack when she needs the oomph. If she does not have a weapon in hand, she should sneak attack, or, if the odds look bad, she should evade (although that costs you time; you can afford this more in 3-player than in 4).
-- Lini has 2 Cures at least, I hope? Lini should discard for Bear form to win fights (if she hasn't an Attack spell in hand), then Cure herself before long. Lini should also be ready to Cure Seoni.
-- Seoni is a powerhouse. She can explore quickly and fights well. She just needs healing.
-- Valeros is soooo sloooow in the early game, but should always wins Combat fights, and is very tough to kill. If he has two weapons in hand, recharge his weapon to fight (and even do so if he has just one weapon if you are fighting the villain or a location henchman, although keep an eye on whether the close check is a Combat in the second case).Thinking about it, dropping down to 3 characters might be a good choice for you. I think your dilemma is more one of tactics than of characters or character count, but fewer characters makes for a simpler game, and that may be what you need. If you are losing on time, discard allies and even blessings to explore.
EDIT: Ninja'd by yet another Continental friend... I was not deliberately disregarding his comment on the...
why
Who else would you recommend other than Valeros? I only picked up because he can use his strenght for ranged weapons eventually.
And as for the 3 man if I go that route?
I feel I should explain why I ask so many questions. I have OCD, and it tends to spill over into videogames and such. I feel that I cannot play until my party feels "right."
I feel that I cannot play until my party feels "right."
Well, what "feels" right is entirely subjective.
However, you already had a suggested 4-char party that *objectively* should do great in RotR. (elcoderdude gave some play suggestions above). Still, you say you "cannot win" - so to us that suggest you're probably doing something "wrong" during the scenarios themselves.
I'm sure plenty of people will gladly chime in to help you, but we'll need to figure out where exactly are you failing. In addition to Brother Tylor's questions above:
- do you fail from time-out, or from characters dying?
- if time - how often are you exploring each turn? Do you regularly use Blessings and Allies for extra explores?
- if death - how much resources do you throw into supporting a character's combat? do you have any "odds" number (say, 75%) that you're content with before rolling?
- do you have difficulties with a particular bane, location, villain...?
etc,,,
In brief, if you give us an example of how a game went bad for you -maybe we'll be able to figure out what the problem is. Your characters however are NOT it.
Different player count requires different way of explorering.
With two, you need to save your plessings to killing boss monsters and closing locations.
With 6 characters you need to use your allies and blessings mainly to explore again. Most likely so that every character is different location and close so manymlocations that you only have 6 left and then find the willain. Temporary close other 5 locations and 5hen kill the willain. Or something like that depending on situation.
The Main point is that you have to play very differently depending on how Many character you have.
Small party need power to overcome problems, big croup need speed to explore and cover as Large area as possible allmost opposite ways of playing the same game.
So, when I play with four, I usually run out of time. I do use my blessings and allies to explore more. Perhaps I am too greedy? I usually stay at a location until I've gone through its entire deck.
Seoni dies a lot too, but that is usually due to me not keeping track of how many cards are left in her deck. I've thought about using Ezren, but his lack of blessings is worrisome.
I'd LOVE to use Tup more than anything. I just cannot how I should build his deck.
I usually stay at a location until I've gone through its entire deck.
This, I think, is a key tactical error. It may be THE key tactical error you're making.
Generally speaking, when you have the opportunity to close a location, do so right away. Most boons aren't worth losing a scenario. You'll pick boons up along the way through normal exploration and as scenario rewards. And if you really want some of those boons, you can always replay a scenario after you've beaten it. Also, the stash is quite helpful for holding on to boons that might prove useful. The only time to stick around chasing a boon is when you know a rare one is in a location (from examinations).
I had the same problem with Seoni dying. This was mitigated when I used careful location movement to get healers to Seoni (or vice versa). Once you get boons that heal (the staff of minor healing is great, and the shaman at AD 5 is better), Seoni should be a priority to receive them. As long as your characters are exploring at least two times a turn (on average), you can afford for them to move around when necessary to help other characters. This is useful for healing, but also when you know that a bane at a location can't be beaten by the character that is there, but another character can take care of it (I often move Merisiel around to take care of pesky barriers).
I generally prefer Seoni over Ezren because she can recharge her Attack spells (my Seoni is tooled out almost exclusively with Attack spells). Ezren has his own uses, but I'm using him for the first time now, so I haven't quite mastered his style of play. Seoni and her resistance to Fire damage is quite useful, though, and, I think, easier to play.
All of this, as others have said, is highly subjective. Part of the fun is in figuring out how to make different characters (and different progressions of characters) work effectively. Some combinations will be a bit easier than others, but just about any combination can be made to work.
You might also find this topic and this one quite informative. The first shows different players' parties at the midpoint and the second shows the parties after finishing the adventure. Some of them even provide observations. From them you'll see the variety of party compositions that have been used, how characters have assigned feats, and which decks they've used. The decks part is much more subject to the whims of fate in PACG compared to Pathfinder Adventures, but there's some degree of choice involved.
I usually stay at a location until I've gone through its entire deck.This, I think, is a key tactical error. It may be THE key tactical error you're making.
^ This, 100%.
Brother Tyler gave you some sound advice. In addition to always closing your location when you beat the hencman (which also means - never send a character in a location they CAN'T close, except if you already have figured out the scenario - you've scouted the villain and you're now boon hunting since you have lots of timer...) , I'd also recommend you outfit Seoni with Father Zantus and or the promo card Poog of Zarongel - both are excellent back up heals.
EDIT: Also, since you're playing the app - there're are bunch of useful play-trhough videos on YouTube. You can watch a few of them to see how those guys (often also first-timers) manage it, and to identify any other possible mistakes you could be making.
At any rate, fear not - once you get the hang of it, you won't be able to get away from the game :D
Yeah I kinda figured I shouldn’t be emptying out every deck. The greed just gets the best of me. I sincerely thank you all for your help. In the past communities haven’t been as helpful and kind as you lot.
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In the past communities haven’t been as helpful and kind as you lot.
The people on the PACG forum are generous and helpful. It's a really refreshing change from elsewhere on the Internet.
With all due deference to our charming Continental friend
Blushing :-)
A balanced party never defeats everything automatically. For one thing, nothing guarantees Merisiel encounters the barriers (for instance).A balanced party just makes sense, IMHO. For making close checks, for making best use of acquired boons, for experiencing as many aspects of the game as possible, and other reasons.
Moreover: the OP is playing the app. Increasing difficulty is built right in. There's no danger of the game always being too easy.
Agreeing with all your points, just maybe if I may the "or experiencing as many aspects of the game as possible": if you always have someone in your party that is good at a required skill, then the whole game somehow gets down to managing that the good guy meets the relevant challenge (hence scouting, evading...); if you don't, you'll add "aspects of the game" like "how do I win without encountering that card" or "how do i recover from being wiped out by that card" (e. g. the Demon Hordes and others).
IMHO
In the past communities haven’t been as helpful and kind as you lot.The people on the PACG forum are generous and helpful. It's a really refreshing change from elsewhere on the Internet.
+1!