Greetings once again! This is another of my custom classes, this time taking a divine lean into spellcasting. Any feedback on this would be greatly appreciated, whether through mechanical observation or through your own testing and experiences. I'd love to hear it all.
The full class breakdown can be found here: The Seer
A few tweaks have already been implemented. I'm still very interested in hearing some feedback on this though!
Looks pretty interesting. I was going to with the Seer version of the Hedgewitch from 4 Winds Fantasy Gaming for the next campaign I start, though this is a good contender.
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That is a LOT of class features, for a full 9th level caster. More even than the Witch, Oracle and Shaman.
Also I love the Fortunes. But you only give six of them in the Seers entire career.
I would suggest turning Prescient Notion and Aura of Detection into Fortunes if you want to keep it a full caster. Also spread Thrid eye a little more, those 12th level abilities are actually 16th to 18th level abilities in diguise.
Pierce the Darkness at 6th level should be 30 feet, at 12 level should be 60 feet and 'see throough magical darkness' (this should actually read 'function like the See In Darkness monster ability' does the same but actually using rules-language) and 18th level 120 feet and something, maybe gain bonuses when in dim light or darkness.
Pierce the Veil should increase the range of See Invisibility to 30 feet at 12th level and give the ability to passively make Perception checks to spot disguises, traps and secret doors in 30 feet. Permanent True Sight should be an 18th level ability.
Piercing Clarity at 12 level should give Blindsight with only 10 feet of range. Increase the range to 30 feet at 18 level and also increase the Blindsense to 60 feet, otherwise it becomes useless.
All in all I would like this a lot more as a 3/4BAB 6th level caster with Fortune every even level, those changes to Third Eye, and all the other abilities as is, maybe add Warriors Insight as a class feature with duration equal to class level in rounds.
Fair criticism
Sorry it took me a bit to get back to you on this! I'm always glad to get feedback on my work.
First off, I'm glad you like the Fortunes. I was pretty pleased with the flavoring of them and how they all turned out. I've spent a great deal of time on this class as a whole. So let's dive into the nitty gritty! And it looks like this is going to be a doozy.
I'll start with the concept: in my mind, this class was never meant to be combat focused. In fact, with the way I had originally written the class, I was worried it would come off as a glorified NPC class. I think I've pushed it away from those grounds, but I can understand how it might've wound up in an odd state because of that. I'd also had the Fortunes at every even level, but some people felt they were a bit too powerful. They were certainly meant to be to serve as the combat edge of the class or to help outweigh the combat-light content into a more rounded and useful character outside of combat. So I cut back on them to help balance out the large number of features and strength of the fortunes.
The class does have a fairly hefty number of class features, it's true. But I don't think that the class being a full caster should offset this. I definitely feel that spells alone should not define a class. Wizards are about the only exception I feel that can really get away with this, and that's largely because they have such a hefty and versatile selection of spells. The Seer's spell list in particular doesn't feel like it would stand on its own compared to other full casters. While the Seer does get up to 9th-level spells, The vast majority of their spell list focuses on the Divination school - which is an unfortunately unpopular school. They don't get the curative or restorative spells that most Divine casters get, nor the same degree of buffs. They also don't get fogs, mists, walls and the like for battlefield control, and their damaging spells are limited to a very small number. Again though, I didn't want to make a class where spellcasting was their bread and butter. It was supposed to feel like a supplement. A portion of the class.
Following suit with traditional full-casters, they have a small hit die, slow attack bonus, poor Fortitude and Reflex, and limited weapon proficiencies. I had even considered leaving them untrained in armor, but that felt slightly off for a Divine class to be completely incapable, and I wanted to differentiate them slightly from other similar classes of which I'd drawn inspiration: namely the Witch, Shaman, and Oracle.
Prescient Notion and Aura of Detection feel pretty integral to the class. They're meant to be diviners, seers of the future, and fortune-tellers. And while something like Prescient Notion would do better on a more martially capable class, it still feels appropriate. I also drew inspiration from some 3.5e prestige classes that offered similar features and had similar progressions for the class.
I'd agree that the Third Eye 12th-levels are fairly hefty. But, again leaning into the divining and rather non-combatitive aspect, I felt it would be better to offer them at a lower level as incentive. Stuff like blindsight is very strong, as is true sight, and limiting the stacking of abilities from things like blindsense, and keeping the ranges small for things like true sight feels like they work more in-line with what classes could be capable of at those levels. And I wanted to give Pierce the Darkness a higher bump than 30 feet of vision and then 60 feet. Compared to something like the blindsight or true sight, I wanted it to still feel worth while. You're certainly right about the language though, and I'll make that change to it.
And you're not the first to mention that they'd like it better with more martial capabilities! That's just not the concept I had in mind for this. Though it does give me some good ideas for an archetype that would shift its capabilities more in line with those ideas.
Overall though, I appreciate you giving this some thought! It definitely gives me stuff to think about with this.
The entire Seer's spell list can be found here: Seer Spells
I've done some playtesting of this class, and it seems to play pretty well. From what I've noticed, the class features have been a nice addition, but haven't felt like they've overshadowed anything other players were capable. I also found that spellcasting was - as I'd anticipated - definitely not a primary feature of the class. Despite being full casters, having a spell list made of primarily Divination and a looser smattering of Enchantments and a few others did not make for a strong caster in combat scenarios, and I found a few times where I struggled to find fitting spells to prepare for a day. Given the type of magic Seers are capable, it's definitely not a focus in combat. In fact, I found myself relying on Fortunes quite a bit, since they feel like the real bread and butter of the class, and utilizing some scrolls and wands when not activating Fortunes. I loaded myself up on them as much as possible so I could test them out, and I feel like I had a good spread. The character was played at level 8, and I feel like having the levels where Fortunes are not gained might not be the right way to go with it, so I plan on returning to my original build that grants a Fortune every other level to help compensate.
That being said, I'm still very curious to hear what others think of this class. Additional feedback is always welcome.
Looking at the spell list and class features, I agree that they both seem class feature-rich and have a narrow spell list. For classes like this, I would also err on the side of a 6th level caster. The class simply doesn't rely that hard on its spellcasting and as a result would be better balanced without a high end of time-stop and similar spells. Dropping them down to 6-level casting also serves as a signpost for anyone looking at the class, letting them know that this class is less about casting spells than something like a wizard or sorcerer. They do NOT need to become more martial to make up for this change. The fortunes alone are powerful at-will 'spells' that make up for the lack of spell levels.
Like Summoner, you can still give it 'early' access to its most iconic spells. Maybe by bumping things like Divination, Greater Bestow Curse and Moment of Prescience down one or two spell levels. Be very careful about what you bump down this way.
I'd also give it a single extra Fortune at first level. In a lesson I learned from the Envoy in Starfinder, if a class has a powerful class feature that they revolve around (especially if it involves choosing options from a list), you should allow them to access it right from the beginning. In exchange I'd bump up Third-eye to 2nd level, and maybe divining shroud to 3rd (you don't need protections against divinations so early on anyway).
Though I haven't gone through with a fine toothed comb, on first glance, Twist Fortune seems to be too strong of a class ability as written. At high levels with few encounters/day, it adds too much inevitability when combined with anything you or your allies are doing. These are the levels where spellcasters are slinging save-or-dies left and right, and the difference between a TPK and a cakewalk might be one or two failed saves. Other classes in Pathfinder have a much more narrow version of this ability with fewer uses per day and still benefit greatly from it.
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Btw I like it a lot. Its like a much more focused Oracle without all the baggage of curses and revelations and so on that make it feel more cleric-y.
Some nice insight.
Thanks for your feedback! I'd agree that leaning more towards a 6th-level caster would probably be beneficial. I'd always felt that the spellcasting was supposed to supplement the rest of the class features. Important, but far from the main show. And I also agree that it'd discourage snap-judgement against the class features, which are fairly hefty. I suppose I've sided with full casting because it felt appropriate to give them the full spread of options. I also don't feel like having a weaker spell list should automatically resort to having middling spell progression. While it definitely seems more common, I don't feel like that's a hard and fast rule that would necessarily have to be stuck to. Plus it opens up room for more things, such as metamagic, which I feel is important not just for the sake of having the option, but also from the perspective of feat selection (But I'll get into this in a bit).
I definitely agree that they don't need to be more martially powerful. I've had a few suggestions in favor of that from a few other sources, but that's far from the point of this class. It's meant to be hard support. Though I think there's room for such a change in an archetype that I'm working on (but nailing down the core of the class is a bit more crucial).
I've gone back and forth on the Fortune at first level. On the one hand, that is the bread and butter of the class. It'd put things more in line with similar classes, such as the Witch with their Hexes. And I'd agree that bumping a few of those skills would probably work pretty well. On the other hand, Fortunes are fairly potent. And they were meant to be! For a class that revolves around support through insight and one that lacks a lot of capability to do much with the insight on their own, they needed to have a feature that helped them stand out and give them a bit more oomph.
I suppose I don't see it as too powerful myself - but being as close as I am to it does tend to skew my perspective. I also tend to play pretty conservatively with limited-use abilities like that. In the playtest I did, I was hanging onto those three uses I had of Twist Fate for very specific moments, and relying on other things, such as the Deflect Assault Fortune instead. Though I could play with lowering the number of uses down on it.
Which brings me to feats! I'll probably do away with the Fatespinner feat which grants extra uses of Twist Fate, since having a ton of uses of a potentially very powerful tool could be gamebreaking. Furthermore, I'd avoided giving Fortunes at first level to avoid the attempt to stack solely Fortunes (I did that for playtest purposes, but I'll claim that's a bit different) through extra feats. Which also leads to wanting higher spellcasting capabilities for things such as Metamagic.
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And I'm glad you like it! I had always felt that Oracle gave a slightly wrong impression for what it was capable of, since it was effectively a Cleric with some extra flavors. Part of why I felt 3.5e's Favored Soul made a bit more sense name-wise at least. And it was nice to have another divine class that was able to draw their powers from the forces of the world and have some divine influence without being directly tied to a god. I'd also found it odd that there was a division in what Divination spells were available, so I wanted to offer an attempt to help focus on that without making an archetype for an existing class. I felt the stuff I made here made a lot of sense for someone who sees the past, present, and future and who dabbles in luck and fate to have. But yeah, I'm glad you like it! And thanks again for the feedback.