Just checking.
The final Glory Hound power is mandatory, as it does not contain the usual "you may" language, correct?
That is: Merisiel and Alain are at the same location, and Merisiel encounters a monster that the party would really prefer to evade totally, but Alain steps forward and starts a fight. Or Merisiel finds a kickass ranged weapon she wants badly, but Alain shouts "Let me get that for you milady!" and kicks it into a chasm. Or Alain has so few cards in hand that discarding threatens to kill him next turn, but he still does so to fight the monster or grab the weapon.
I mean, it's thematic, but it's unusual for a role power to add complications/disadvantages like this.
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Can you please quote the power? I don't have my cards on hand.
That said, charging forward to the detriment of his allies sounds totally like something Alain would do.
□ When another character at your location would encounter a monster (□ or a weapon), discard (□ or recharge) a card; you encounter it instead.
Other cards on the table
Powers on cards on the table—including story cards, character cards, and displayed cards—are active whenever they are appropriate.Playing cards from your hand is always optional. Active powers on all other cards are only optional if they say “you may” do something.
As written, yes, it is mandatory. It might be intentional, since he is a Glory Hound after all. But it is also problematic in some situations. The one you described is one. I'd also hate to see him play RotR's Into the Eye as part of group. And by "hate" I mean "love".
The only other character I can think of with this kind of feature is Ranzak with his compulsive greed-triggered exploration frenzies.
In class decks, there's a Barbarian (Ostog) who, if you take a power feat, forcibly banishes armors he comes across, too.
With that said, I'm not particularly comfortable with the idea of having mandatory powers (at least ones that aren't purely upside) as a 'reward' from a power feat in the first place (which was why I was happy to see Qualzar very recently FAQe so he didn't have one himself). Given that the original character may well prefer to do the encountering, combined with the requirement to spend cards from Alain's hand, this certainly seems like a dangerous proposition to spend a power feat on.
It is a powerful upside (if carefully measured), and it is thematic... so it might be intentional. Still feels off to me.
It certainly feels like discarding the card is meant to be a "cost" that you pay to activate the power, and that the power was thus intended to be optional. It feels particularly strange that if you don't even have a card to discard you still steal the encounter. I can't fault Hawkmoon's rationale but it doesn't feel like the intention to me at all - indeed I wouldn't have considered the possibility that it worked that way at all before this thread.
Way more fun if mandatory...
Let's have Alain deal with the bad monster stuff (I don't really care if he dies, it's not my character), while I can get deal with all the good boon stuff! (and the occasionnal barrier...)
Huh. I can't imagine playing PACG with people who don't care if another player's character dies. (I certainly wouldn't do so twice.)
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Huh. I can't imagine playing PACG with people who don't care if another player's character dies. (I certainly wouldn't do so twice.)
I don't think that MuffinB was suggesting that this is how the game should be played. I inferred that it was more of a sarcastic statement born of exasperation at the impact of mandatory Glory Hound action.
In my opinion, the mandatory discard (□ or recharge) drives the overall strategy in exploration and character location in a thematic way. Players shouldn't have their characters at the same location as Alain because they don't care about Alain (or the fun of the character playing him). Other characters are at the same location as Glory Hound Alain because Alain is (or should be) optimized to deal with the monsters that the other characters can't deal with. And in the spirit of sportsmanship, the other characters should be helping Alain in this.
If Alain doesn't have cards to get rid of, the other character should either give him one or be able to heal. Once you get to the point where Alain can recharge, this isn't as important if Alain has extra cards he doesn't need for an encounter (e.g., he's sitting there with 3 weapons in hand). Hopefully the other character has blessings or similar boons in her hand to help, or she has powers to enhance Alain's combat (Shardra is a good character to team up with Alain in this way, but characters from other APs and CDs such as RotRL Lem are also good). This is great late in the game when you're frantically exploring that last location in search of the villain - you tool Alain up to deal with the villain and let the other characters explore willy nilly (as long as this doesn't put them at risk, mind you). When that nefarious villain is unmasked by a character that's down to her last card, Alain calmly steps forward and says, "I'll handle this." If everyone has done their job well, Alain won't even break a sweat.
If Alain isn't set up to handle a monster, the other character shouldn't explore if there might be a monster waiting to jump out, or she should move to another location. Granted, some location rules and late-game limitations might prevent this, but that's all part of the fun of playing and the risk vs. gain analysis.
TLDR, the mandatory nature of this power isn't a bad thing, in my opinion.
True, it just is what it is.
It requires planning in play when with him in the same location. It can be used usefull or badly and that is a good thing! You have to think...
I don't think that MuffinB was suggesting that this is how the game should be played. I inferred that it was more of a sarcastic statement born of exasperation at the impact of mandatory Glory Hound action.That exactly.
This was totally lost on my autistic self.
Otherwise, +1 to Brother Tyler's take.
It would be fascinating to formulate a strategy for taking Glory Hound Alain through Into the Eye (and winning).
He would truly live up to his role's name if he were to survive the ordeal.
I'd also hate to see him play RotR's Into the Eye as part of group. And by "hate" I mean "love".@JohnF, it depends on your definition of "problem"... Hawkmoon would
hatelove to see it happen.
Keep in mind, Into the Eye isn't in organized play. So I'm not wishing ill on anyone besides myself.
OP has a bunch of forced groupup scenarios.
I've previously admitted that Wrath roles was one of my biggest first projects on this game, and I am 100% willing to believe that I erred in not including may. Given the theme, it may have even been considered optional.
I don't believe it's much of a game feature for it to work as mandatory, so I'll ask for a FAQ (which Vic can approve or deny), and I'd encourage people to rule appropriately for the way that is fun for them (or avoid the feat) in the meantime.
Huh. I can't imagine playing PACG with people who don't care if another player's character dies. (I certainly wouldn't do so twice.)
Fun fact: we just started a new campain playing the "villains" characters.
During the first scenario everyone was playing selfish (hurting the others to get some benefits).Lasted one scenario. At the end of the day, winning needs you to collaborate.
BTW if you want a good incentive to have players refrain from letting other characters die, this is a house rule we added when playing villains:
A) Nobody gets any reward from a scenario if someone died (even if you have to replay if you failed it).
B) The player whose character died restarts with a new characer with only basic boons (hence everyone will have hard time winning next scenario).
C) If the player is so angry that he quits, the others must finish the whole campain has if he was there (i. e; with one more location on most of the scenarios).
With that, strangely, we don't let people die.
What Is Cooperative Play?
First and foremost, the Pathfinder Adventure Card
Game is a cooperative experience. This concept should
guide your behavior during play and is summarized in
the Pathfinder Society “don’t be a jerk” rule. Enjoy the
game, be considerate of the others at the table, and don’t
let your actions keep your fellow players from having
a good time. Don’t make decisions on behalf of other
players. Don’t take actions that may harm another player’s
character without that player’s consent. If there is dispute
over the rules, try to come to an agreement as quickly as
possible. If that proves impossible, choose the path that
benefits the most players. Be courteous and encourage a
mutual interest in playing, and don’t engage in endless
rules discussions.
I think the above is all we've ever really needed. Don't make actions that harm other player's without their consent. I've played Linxia as a pre-gen from tier 3 to tier 6 and I have yet to use her powerfeat to shuffle cards from another player's discard pile into my deck. Similarly I try to avoid using corrupted cards until i can redeem them unless it's a price I can pay myself. For example, i might discard a blessing from my hand (Unholy Aspergillum+3), but I wouldn't banish 1/2 blessings from the blessings deck (Devil's armor) unless everyone was OK with it.
I realize that the quoted portion isn't from the WotR/MM rules, but I feel like it should apply all the same in non-OP. As written, Alain's Glory Hound role is a bit odd because it becomes fairly restrictive. Thematically it is quite fitting; however, I personally wouldn't take the feat unless it was "may".
OP has a bunch of forced groupup scenarios.
I've previously admitted that Wrath roles was one of my biggest first projects on this game, and I am 100% willing to believe that I erred in not including may. Given the theme, it may have even been considered optional.
I don't believe it's much of a game feature for it to work as mandatory, so I'll ask for a FAQ (which Vic can approve or deny), and I'd encourage people to rule appropriately for the way that is fun for them (or avoid the feat) in the meantime.
Awesome, thanks! Always cool to get feedback from designers.