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A sentiment I've seen a few times, and think is pretty likely to be true for a lot of people, is that the goblin pill would go down smoother if a few other monstrous races with more popularity and more a civilized base in-setting are included in the core book. If there are also other monstrous core races, goblins won't get as much hate. I feel this is doable and is a worthy goal.
The best way to do this is to just abandon the idea of only having 8 races in the book, and add a few more. It's worth adding pages to the book to make this happen, especially the actual finished book which is a year and a half out and so wouldn't have a set pagecount yet. Even in the playtest book which is much closer and undoubtedly has a much firmer contract on how big it can be, they could accomplish this by losing a few art pieces, cutting out a couple pages of flavor text for equipment descriptions, and the like. Hell, even just removing trivial material spell component descriptions from the playtest book would be multiple pages worth of text in itself. It would actually be nice to have 12 races to go with the 12 classes, and as a corollary have TWO iconics for each class. This lets all the old guard remain, with the new iconics joining them, for a total of 2 iconics in the CRB from each race.
Anyway, this is what I would recommend on the monstrous races front, expanded from a shorter post I made in the Acrimonious Thread of Doom. Notably, I feel that not every small race needs a Dex bonus, nor should the specific combo of +Dex/+Cha be omnipresent. I am going to keep pushing that each race should have two ability maluses to choose from, instead of a single static penalty; this can more flavorfully represent a race's shortcomings, while also enabling more builds. Each race should have more than we saw to it in the Goblin blog: ability modifiers, darkvision and one racial feat do not the flavor of a race convey. There should be at least a couple hard abilities per ancestry, and you should get two ancestry feats at 1st level for customization.
Goblin: +Dex, +Con, +any, -either Int or Wis
They're not going away, so let's make them fit their flavor and history better. I'd honestly give them -Cha instead of -Int, but this is a compromise with the weird Paizo desire to give them +Cha; so here they just end up Cha neutral. +Dex is natural, and +Con is from them being hardy little buggers who eat refuse and live in sewers and other awful places; this shouldn't be broken, because Con isn't as important as Str or as important to Dex build classes. Int or Wis malus is from them being consistently portrayed by Paizo as dim bulbs who can barely form coherent sentences and who lack any standard of common sense.
Kobold: +Int, +Cha, +any, -either Str or Con
Kobolds are much more popular than goblins, as well as being a more civilized race that can better integrate into society, and definitely deserve their due. I'm advocating removing the +Dex because not every small race needs +Dex, and they could get it with the floating stat increase anyway. Instead, focus on what is key about them: they are smart, cunning, crafty creatures with a powerful force of personality and innate facility with magic. This definitely fits +Int/+Cha. Meanwhile, they are thin and frail little creatures, so applying malus to Str or Con makes sense.
Orc: +Str, +Wis, +any, -either Int or Cha
Orcs are still popular thanks to things like World of Warcraft, Games Workshop and so on, and there have actually been some interesting interpretations of them - I particularly like Eberron's take. This makes +Wis an attractive take to me, because of a greater connection to the natural world, whether that manifests as feral savagery with evil orcs or wise shamanistic tendencies with the more civilized variety. +Str is obvious, and Str paired with Wis is less likely to make them a "best melee ever" race than Str paired with Con. The Int and Cha malus are also obvious; they are typically dim and weak willed as well as the very opposite of charming.
Tengu: +Dex, +Wis, +any, -either Str or Con
Tengu come in as our representative "Eastern" race, letting that have a place in the flavor of the CRB beyond just the monk class and possible ninja / Samurai archetypes. When the Ratfolk get added in the next book, they could be flavored as Nezumi as well to further push this. Don't just have Asian Tengu though; corvids are found everywhere and so too would be the case for these guys, and they might even have color morphs to appear as other corvids like bluejays and magpies. Anyway, they keep their +Dex and +Wis from PF1 because it fits them as sneaky and perceptive. Their malus options are Str and Con for not being especially strong or tough.
While looking into this, I feel it's worth examining a couple assumptions on the older core races as well. I especially want to break the back of the "Kender obnoxiousness" currently infused into PF1 Gnomes and Halflings, as well as extend the "malus to a choice of stats" philosophy to the old core races. I would erase Gnomes but I know that is not going to happen so I'm just going to deal with it.
Dwarf: +Con, +Wis, +any, -either Dex or Cha
Honestly dwarves are already pretty okay. I mean, they're boring, and I wish Paizo dwarves were more distinct from every other dwarf under the sun, but they're at least solid as a rock. I agree with the old modifiers of +Con +Wis; they're tough, earthy folk with a lot of common sense. Their malus would be in the player's choice of either Dex, for their stocky thick builds, or Cha, for their gruffness and reticence. Just please give more expansion to their cultures and maybe develop in traits from other mythological dwarflike folk to make them more interesting, please. Even things as simple as touching on a cultural love for music (harder than the ethereal fipper fap of elves of course) would at least add a touch more detail and interest.
Elf: +Dex, +Int, +any, -either Str or Con
Elves... Eh, I could take or leave them. The standard version is pretty boring and the Golarion take doesn't even make the minor tweaks something like MtG did to make them more flavorful, but I know a lot of people love them, so whatever. Anyway, since I don't have an opinion the PF1 stat assignment seems pretty okay to me. +Dex for being graceful, +Int for being long lived and learning a lot over time. Str or Con malus for being frail waifs.
Gnome: +Con, +Int, +any, -either Str or Cha
You'll notice no Cha bonus. Gnomes are creepy and weird, and GNOMES DO NOT NEED KENDER PLOT ARMOR to imply that they're somehow super likable and that players and GMs are bad people if they don't like the little bastards. What Gnomes are is shifty and conniving, with an instinct for craft and other smart pursuits; this suits +Int just fine. I'm fine with them keeping +Con like PF1 if that's supposed to represent them having strong vitality from a fey connection to the natural world or something. Creepiness and lack of ability to connect with and empathize with normal people gives them the option for Cha malus, while just being physically small and weak gives them the option for Str malus. If Paizo isn't willing to give them a Cha malus, then use the same compromise as Goblins above: replace -Cha with -Wis, because that can also reflect the lack of connection as well as general flightiness.
Halfling: +Wis, +Cha, +any, -either Str or Int
Noticing no +Dex? Good. It doesn't fit them, even going back to the novels they're cribbed from. HALFLINGS ARE NOT GOLARION-DARNED KENDER. Paizo needs to break away from the D&D philosophy toward them; as a side benefit this should reduce the tendency for players to bring out a problem side to their personalities when playing a halfling. Their core traits are that they are earthy and friendly, with a strong sense of self; this fits +Wis/Cha. But they are also built like children who don't exercise much, and are inclined to simple pursuits and away from philosophical introspection; this fits the Str-or-Int malus.
Human: +any, +any, -any
Most people have something they're bad at. Getting to choose any two stats to raise can be balanced by giving a malus to a stat, while still making it flexible. Being able to put the malus in anything makes it easy to dump-stat depending on your class and mostly negate the penalty, sure, but only getting two bonuses is also not as good as the other races getting three, so it works out.
And then the half-races. I don't see a world where these would actually be cut from the core book (even though they probably should be) after having the weight of "tradition" behind them, and especially with both them having pre-existing iconics. I also don't see Paizo devoting the extra word and page count to making each race hybridizable so you can just "assemble" half races. So in lieu of those options which won't happen, I feel this is a workable way of handling them as our 10th and 11th races:
Half-Elf: +either Dex or Int, +any, -any, bonus feat
Half-Orc: +either Str or Wis, +any, -any, bonus feat
I constructed these off a tweaked version of my human model. One of the human's flexible +any stats is replaced with a bonus to either but not both of the other parent race's two set bonus stats. To make up for this, they get an extra ancestry feat at 1st level, and have to have at least one ancestry feat from each parent race.
So that 12th race? I'd make it Planetouched, covering both Aasimar and Tiefling and arcing in a slightly different direction from D&D iconization. I think I'd actually do these guys as a template, able to slip over any other race, since they are pretty clear that celestials and fiends don't only mate with humans. If every race starts with two ancestry feats for more customization instead of merely one, then slotting Planetouched over your race could consume your +any stat bonus and one of your starting feats in exchange for a few minor abilities and access to the Planetouched ancestry feats.
If they didn't want to go in that direction, then save the Aasimar and Tiefling for the next book and replace them in that 12th slot with Ratfolk. Alternatively, keep the Planetouched and replace Tengu with Ratfolk.
Ratfolk: +Dex, +Int, +any, -either Con or Cha
Rats exist everywhere and so do ratfolk. They are quick and nimble, as well as demonstrating superior reasoning ability and learning capacity; this makes +Dex and +Int natural. Rats are known for having short lifespans and not being very hardy on an individual level (on a colony level is another matter entirely), so Con malus is an option; they also are pack creatures with less individuality and sense of self, so Cha malus is an option.
A final point I saw in the Goblin blog was that for some reason they get Common and Goblin as languages. Language should not come from your race, it should come from cultural background. I didn't come out of the womb knowing English just for being born human.
A final final note, if the new base speed is 25... Please don't? That doesn't divide by 2 well. Keep it at 30 before equipment modifiers, and make slower races like dwarves 25 instead of 20. 30 actually still works well with the new action economy. Moving twice a round would be jogging, thrice would be running, and then a full action 4x sprint would give you flat footed.
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Hum funny, i think the idea of adding those races will only increase the outcry.
Regarding actually adding them, personally i think they should focus on races current PF players favor and use more often, than races that barely, if ever, see the light of day at almost any tables at all.
Ofc, anything you put in the core when we still have such limited options will get played, doesnt mean people wouldnt prefer races that already are their favorites from Pf1.
Halfling: +Wis, +Cha, +any, -either Str or Int
Noticing no +Dex? Good. It doesn't fit them, even going back to the novels they're cribbed from. HALFLINGS ARE NOT GOLARION-DARNED KENDER. Paizo needs to break away from the D&D philosophy toward them; as a side benefit this should reduce the tendency for players to bring out a problem side to their personalities when playing a halfling. Their core traits are that they are earthy and friendly, with a strong sense of self; this fits +Wis/Cha. But they are also built like children who don't exercise much, and are inclined to simple pursuits and away from philosophical introspection; this fits the Str-or-Int malus.
While I do get where you are coming from... Core Halfing: " A typical halfling prides himself on his ability to go unnoticed by other races—a trait that allows many halflings to excel at thievery and trickery."
What about the mites?
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I'm actually kind of dismayed to see this idea tied to the goblin discussion. Having those extra races be core is something that I definitely want to see either way.
What I want is more ancestries :). I don't think 12 is realistic though so I would shoot for 10. Ideally this would be:
Human
Dwarf
Elf
Gnome
Halfling
Orc
Goblin
Kobold
Hybrid
Drow
I think these capture the most popular ancestries and let everyone play what they want. Notice, instead of half-elves and half-orcs I simply put hybrids. This would be templatish letting you pick 2 ancestries (GM fiat or maybe rules for compatibility) and combining them. It would hopefully actually be a little weaker to make up for access to the ancestry feat trees
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Regarding actually adding them, personally i think they should focus on races current PF players favor and use more often, than races that barely, if ever, see the light of day at almost any tables at all..
I dunno that I agree with that. Aaisimar and Tieflings PCs are a dime a dozen, but largely for optimization reasons. The former are supposed to be incredibly rare, such that there are no true aaisimar communties, but I often have at least 1, maybe 2 in any given party. I also think outsiders don't jive super well flavor wise, so I don't think they should get pushed super hard.
If people mostly play a race for it's crunch and not the fluff, well, the crunch is going to get replaced anyway.
What about the mites?
Require a major overhaul.
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I'm actually kind of dismayed to see this idea tied to the goblin discussion. Having those extra races be core is something that I definitely want to see either way.What I want is more ancestries :). I don't think 12 is realistic though so I would shoot for 10. Ideally this would be:
Human
Dwarf
Elf
Gnome
Halfling
Orc
Goblin
Kobold
Hybrid
DrowI think these capture the most popular ancestries and let everyone play what they want. Notice, instead of half-elves and half-orcs I simply put hybrids. This would be templatish letting you pick 2 ancestries (GM fiat or maybe rules for compatibility) and combining them. It would hopefully actually be a little weaker to make up for access to the ancestry feat trees
i like this idea a lot
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Personally if races are added, they should be ones better suited for PC's. For instance, you could make a plane touched one that covers the elemental, celestial and infernal planes: It can fill in for tieflings, aasimar, and the elemental races [ifrit, undine, oread, sylph, suli] represented by varying feats and abilities. That IMO is MUCH more suited for core than goblins.
I think Wolfwere's should be included.
Also Hobgoblins...
:P
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I think Wolfwere's should be included.
Also Hobgoblins...
:P
Weregoblins?
Weregoblins?I think Wolfwere's should be included.
Also Hobgoblins...
:P
!!!
I do agree with the adding of at least a few of the other obviously class-based races already established in Golarion. Orc and Kobold at the very least.
I'd personally want the half-breed capabilities to be in the ancestry system, and NOT be defined races unto themselves. This could include all sorts of capabilities, from 'half-blooded' allowing ancestry feats from another defined race, to 'plane-touched' allowing plane based ancestry feats - the former would deal with what currently are half-elves and half-orcs, the latter would deal with not just tiefling and aasimar, but also sylph, undine, oread, etc. It would also make it much easier to deal with non-human based planetouched (bring on the half-azers!).
By eliminating the half-breeds as specific races, you could stick to 8 races (Human, Elf, Dwarf, Halfling, Gnome, Goblin, Orc and Kobold). Manageable, and far more capable list out of the core book.
I do agree with the adding of at least a few of the other obviously class-based races already established in Golarion. Orc and Kobold at the very least.
What they could do is add some bare bones ancestries/feats into the bestiary even if they don't have room for full on entries and then flesh them out in later books.
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Oh I definitely agree with handling half races with a hybrid system. I just don't think there's a snowball's chance in Tartarus that they'll do it.
With the addition of ancestry feats it seems like they'l be a prime opportunity for the player companion series.
Fluff about the variant ancestries, archetypes, "racial weapons" and feats in a single companion.
Oh I definitely agree with handling half races with a hybrid system. I just don't think there's a snowball's chance in Tartarus that they'll do it.
I don't know - I mean, the only reason they are in there now is because they were in there before - it's not a valid game design reason for them to be there. If the ancestry system was capable enough, then it could satisfy those who want to be a half-elf, just as well as it could satisfy those who want to play a Dwelf or Dworc (both races I've built with the race builder, under guidance of Paizo's Bastards of Golarion on how to create one-off half-breeds).
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Hm, so thinking about it, some decisions that could make half races work as a hybrid system...
- A halfrace acquires ALL of the ability bonuses and penalties from both ancestries, less one of the +Any from each ancestry. Half-human still gets one +Any, just not two. It's strongly implied they are using Starfinder starting stat limits (cap 18 after racial modifiers), so it's okay if this gives like ++Str, it still can't go over 18 so it's not broken.
- A halfrace gets all static racial abilities of both ancestries.
- A purerace gets three ancestry feats at 1st level for customization.
- A halfrace gets only two ancestry feats, and must pick one from each parent's tree. Any extra ancestry feats from level up must be balanced as evenly as possible, so the half-elf half-orc who picks an elf feat at one opportunity must take an orc feat at the next.
- Racial bonus HP at 1st level are the average of the two parent races.
I will admit that I generally thought of kobolds as a race that would potentially get a +2 Charisma due to their draconic ancestry and sorcery, including some iconic kobold bards (Deekin!) and sorcerers. But I suppose that can be a bloodline reflected in an ancestral feat or option that provides a Charisma bonus.
I dont think theyre gonna do it. I would love that, but i dont think thats gonna happen.
Hell, 70% of the curremt iconics are humans, so i don't think Paizo cares about race that much.
Hum funny, i think the idea of adding those races will only increase the outcry.
Regarding actually adding them, personally i think they should focus on races current PF players favor and use more often, than races that barely, if ever, see the light of day at almost any tables at all.
Ofc, anything you put in the core when we still have such limited options will get played, doesnt mean people wouldnt prefer races that already are their favorites from Pf1.
On the nose.
Regarding actually adding them, personally i think they should focus on races current PF players favor and use more often, than races that barely, if ever, see the light of day at almost any tables at all..I dunno that I agree with that. Aaisimar and Tieflings PCs are a dime a dozen, but largely for optimization reasons. The former are supposed to be incredibly rare, such that there are no true aaisimar communties, but I often have at least 1, maybe 2 in any given party. I also think outsiders don't jive super well flavor wise, so I don't think they should get pushed super hard.
If people mostly play a race for it's crunch and not the fluff, well, the crunch is going to get replaced anyway.
Actually Aasimar have their own country. And both Aasimar and Tieflings have been extremely popular for decades, it goes beyond mechanical advantage. In 3.x they had much less of a mechanical advantage and they were still everywhere. They are just full of story potential. And even before all the mechanical variations, you could tweak the fluff based on which Angel or Devil you liked.
I'm in agreement that changing and updating the core races sounds better than just adding Goblins to the old list. Though 12 races, with 12 class, and 24 iconics sounds a bit much.
By eliminating the half-breeds
Please don't use that term, it's quite offensive.
By eliminating the half-breedsPlease don't use that term, it's quite offensive.
Sigh... It seems almost EVERYTHING is these days... :P
To be clear, "Half-Breeds" were a political faction of the United States Republican Party in the late 19th century and the term was meant to suggest that they were only half Republican... Or these days they would be thought of as moderates so yeah, it's an insult.
It also has a long history as an extremely derogatory term for Native Americans, no matter what their family background
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Sigh... It seems almost EVERYTHING is these days... :P
It is, nonetheless pretty easy to navigate-
Simply try one's best to not be needlessly offensive (we all know why "miser" is preferable to "niggard" even if they mean the same thing), and when you do mess up, listen to the person who is telling you that you messed up, try to understand their perspective, apologize, internalize this, and move on as a wiser person.
I think most "everybody is so offended these days" complaints are just people exasperated at being expected to continue to learn things.
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It also has a long history as an extremely derogatory term for Native Americans, no matter what their family background
Boy can also be a derogatory term but you need to ignore the context to have it be a blanket derogatory term. I don't foresee removing boy from every and all threads because in one context it's bad.
I'm way too old for this much PCness. No one here is talking about a real life Native American, anymore than you are referencing Republicans, when talking about pathfinder ancestries... Would half-caste, half-blooded or crossbred sound better even though they have identical meanings?
It is, nonetheless pretty easy to navigate-
It really isn't though. I seen a dozen words in various thread listed as 'offensive' to someone and I don't understand what they would be in the context they are said in: Again, like I said boy could be offensive but it isn't universally so but some are treating words as universally so.
Simply try one's best to not be needlessly offensive
The thing is I don't see it as needless when you have to dance around a term and IMO make what you're trying to say less precise. If I look hard enough you could make a case for someone somewhere being offended by any random word/phrase.
when you do mess up, listen to the person who is telling you that you messed up, try to understand their perspective, apologize, internalize this, and move on as a wiser person.
Well I listen, don't understand at all as it doesn't seem an issue after listening to the argument AND looking at the context the word/phase was used in. If I would mess up, I'm more than willing to say 'my bad, I screwed up' but I have to see that I did. At best I can say "sorry but it doesn't seem like a problem to me.
I think most "everybody is so offended these days" complaints are just people exasperated at being expected to continue to learn things.
If by 'learn' you mean 'understand', maybe. It just seems like an avalanche of the same argument just with different words has kept popping up since the playtext started. And most times it NOT someone saying 'I'm offended' but 'someone somewhere might be offended'. I put little weight into someone getting outraged for someone else because 'microaggressions' bad. Heck even 'fluff' is now a HIGHLY offensive word it seems and IMO it all detracts from people ACTUALLY trying to be offensive because THAT'S where the outrage should be directed.
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I mean, if I had my way, I would simply have the "half" races be allowed to pick ancestry traits from either parent race. That would save a lot of work on developing unique ancestry traits for those races, and you could use the save room to add Orc (for Half-orcs) and maybe one other race.
That said, I am not sure adding a few more races would uh...calm things as much as some people think. Because ultimately I don't think there is a clear obvious choice for inclusion. So the arguing would be less about "Goblins...ARRGGH!" and more along the lines of "Why did we get X when clearly Y makes more sense"
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By eliminating the half-breedsPlease don't use that term, it's quite offensive.Is the fact that others are offended at you being offended by the term an equal level of offense?
If so, do the two offenses cancel one another out, exploding outward in a burst of pecadillo and transgression requiring a Reflex save from everyone on the forum?
For me, this is where I'm at. I've seen several threads with moderator comments about post removals in an attempt to make the place 'more welcoming'. I don't find it welcoming for people to micromanage every post looking for any word that could possibly be found contentious in ANY possible way and then pounce on it like a lion on a steak.
I mean, if I had my way, I would simply have the "half" races
I don't know... Someone somewhere might think you mean half-breed when you say half, and that is apparently bad, so we might have to move to 'mixed'.
EDIT: I'm going to wander someplace else for a while. I'm getting frustrated by this topic and I want to move on before things get too heated. I'm crossing my fingers that the next thread I go to doesn't have a new word/phrase that people are trying to ban... :P
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Aaaaand back to the topic.
I like some of the ideas floating around for making the "half" ancestries into more of a subsystem for mixing ancestries. And if it means room for more ancestries, even better! My hope is that if it could be put on a single spread (the one for the half-elf), the half-orc spread could be used on orcs. That would also save space on ancestry feats. I'm not sure if having orcs or kobolds be core would help stymie the outrage we're seeing, but I'd certainly be up for more options!
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I tend to personally prefer kobolds over Golarion, but those are the Midgard Kobolds from Kobold Publishing. I actually don't much care for how they are presented in Golarion, to be honest.
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Aaaaand back to the topic.
I like some of the ideas floating around for making the "half" ancestries into more of a subsystem for mixing ancestries. And if it means room for more ancestries, even better! My hope is that if it could be put on a single spread (the one for the half-elf), the half-orc spread could be used on orcs. That would also save space on ancestry feats. I'm not sure if having orcs or kobolds be core would help stymie the outrage we're seeing, but I'd certainly be up for more options!
By including kobolds and orcs in addition to goblins, it removes the expectation that the core races are the types of adventurers who are able to walk through a city unmolested.
By only including goblins, the expectation is that they are now equivalent to at least half-orcs in terms of acceptability in a traditional safe haven.
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Aaaaand back to the topic.
I like some of the ideas floating around for making the "half" ancestries into more of a subsystem for mixing ancestries. And if it means room for more ancestries, even better! My hope is that if it could be put on a single spread (the one for the half-elf), the half-orc spread could be used on orcs. That would also save space on ancestry feats. I'm not sure if having orcs or kobolds be core would help stymie the outrage we're seeing, but I'd certainly be up for more options!
By including kobolds and orcs in addition to goblins, it removes the expectation that the core races are the types of adventurers who are able to walk through a city unmolested.
By only including goblins, the expectation is that they are now equivalent to at least half-orcs in terms of acceptability in a traditional safe haven.
1/2 orcs are hated in quite a few places in the setting , more so then goblins.
Aaaaand back to the topic.
I like some of the ideas floating around for making the "half" ancestries into more of a subsystem for mixing ancestries. And if it means room for more ancestries, even better! My hope is that if it could be put on a single spread (the one for the half-elf), the half-orc spread could be used on orcs. That would also save space on ancestry feats. I'm not sure if having orcs or kobolds be core would help stymie the outrage we're seeing, but I'd certainly be up for more options!
By including kobolds and orcs in addition to goblins, it removes the expectation that the core races are the types of adventurers who are able to walk through a city unmolested.
By only including goblins, the expectation is that they are now equivalent to at least half-orcs in terms of acceptability in a traditional safe haven.
1/2 orcs are hated in quite a few places in the setting , more so then goblins.
Is there a Paizo published AP that DOESN'T have at least one half-orc in a prominent role in the starting city/town? I mean, even Trunau has a half-orc on their council.
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Aaaaand back to the topic.
I like some of the ideas floating around for making the "half" ancestries into more of a subsystem for mixing ancestries. And if it means room for more ancestries, even better! My hope is that if it could be put on a single spread (the one for the half-elf), the half-orc spread could be used on orcs. That would also save space on ancestry feats. I'm not sure if having orcs or kobolds be core would help stymie the outrage we're seeing, but I'd certainly be up for more options!
By including kobolds and orcs in addition to goblins, it removes the expectation that the core races are the types of adventurers who are able to walk through a city unmolested.
By only including goblins, the expectation is that they are now equivalent to at least half-orcs in terms of acceptability in a traditional safe haven.
1/2 orcs are hated in quite a few places in the setting , more so then goblins.
not that i can think of which rather shows that is one of the most hated races can have so many important characters running about then there should be no issue with some non evil goblins running about
Is there a Paizo published AP that does not have at least one half-orc in a prominent role in the starting city/town? I mean, even Trunau has a half-orc on their council.
1/2 orcs are hated in quite a few places in the setting , more so then goblins.
More than goblins? And to the same degree? I'm NOT an expert in the lore but that doesn't sound right.
not that i can think of which rather shows that is one of the most hated races can have so many important characters running about then there should be no issue with some non evil goblins running aboutIs there a Paizo published AP that DOESN'T have at least one half-orc in a prominent role in the starting city/town? I mean, even Trunau has a half-orc on their council.Aaaaand back to the topic.
I like some of the ideas floating around for making the "half" ancestries into more of a subsystem for mixing ancestries. And if it means room for more ancestries, even better! My hope is that if it could be put on a single spread (the one for the half-elf), the half-orc spread could be used on orcs. That would also save space on ancestry feats. I'm not sure if having orcs or kobolds be core would help stymie the outrage we're seeing, but I'd certainly be up for more options!
By including kobolds and orcs in addition to goblins, it removes the expectation that the core races are the types of adventurers who are able to walk through a city unmolested.
By only including goblins, the expectation is that they are now equivalent to at least half-orcs in terms of acceptability in a traditional safe haven.
1/2 orcs are hated in quite a few places in the setting , more so then goblins.
Well Half-Orcs already have at least a century of hard work trying to work off the stigma, which Goblins do not. Not to mention there's parts of Golarion (Garund) called out as being far more accepting of them for cultural reasons.
Goblins don't yet have any of that. They could obviously start to work on it, sure, and I think Mr. Bulhman has implied they will, but if Half-Orcs are at a point where they're still enslaved and killed in pogroms in Avistan's civilised countries, Goblins are gonna have a hell of a tough time.
Aaaaand back to the topic.
I like some of the ideas floating around for making the "half" ancestries into more of a subsystem for mixing ancestries. And if it means room for more ancestries, even better! My hope is that if it could be put on a single spread (the one for the half-elf), the half-orc spread could be used on orcs. That would also save space on ancestry feats. I'm not sure if having orcs or kobolds be core would help stymie the outrage we're seeing, but I'd certainly be up for more options!
And it could be used to make the plane-touched races incorporate more of their material plane heritage. Efreeti-blooded Gnomes? Aasimar Elves? Tiefling Goblins? Dragon-blooded Orcs? Ancestry feats and/or a template system could handle the load AND offer meaningful choices down the road by allowing players to touch on both sides of their heritage. Alternatively, allow the mixed-ancestry ones to pick another race to touch on, so your Aaasimar could gain feats from Halflings.
Well Half-Orcs already have at least a century of hard work trying to work off the stigma, which Goblins do not.
And if goblins work in the same time to get to a place like the 1/2 orcs, how much better would 1/2 orcs be? Or is there only one PR guy and he only works for 1 race at a time? ;)
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1/2 orcs are hated in quite a few places in the setting , more so then goblins.More than goblins? And to the same degree? I'm NOT an expert in the lore but that doesn't sound right.
Given that the Advanced Race Guide includes explicit references to many people killing them on sight? Possibly somewhere, yeah.
There are no such explicit statements for goblins (though people will argue they're implied).
Is there a Paizo published AP that DOESN'T have at least one half-orc in a prominent role in the starting city/town? I mean, even Trunau has a half-orc on their council.
I know Strange Aeons has no half-orcs either in the Asylum or in Thrushmoor, there is a prominent NPC Changeling though. I don't think there are any half-orcs in the beginning of Carrion Crown either.
1/2 orcs are hated in quite a few places in the setting , more so then goblins.More than goblins? And to the same degree? I'm NOT an expert in the lore but that doesn't sound right.Given that the Advanced Race Guide includes explicit references to many people killing them on sight? Possibly somewhere, yeah.
There are no such explicit statements for goblins (though people will argue they're implied).
Well they say they have been impossible to exterminate and the only way you can make that statement is if you TRY to do that at least once. ;)
Just the race and bestiary sections paint a picture of their being universally thought of as "almost universally despised" and "virulent parasites that have proved impossible to exterminate". I think 1/2 orcs are better off than that.
Is there a Paizo published AP that DOESN'T have at least one half-orc in a prominent role in the starting city/town? I mean, even Trunau has a half-orc on their council.I know Strange Aeons has no half-orcs either in the Asylum or in Thrushmoor, there is a prominent NPC Changeling though. I don't think there are any half-orcs in the beginning of Carrion Crown either.
No Half-Orcs in the beginning of War of the Crown either (though there's one in a town in the second volume), though there are Half-Orcs in Oppara.
There's a Half-Orc on the ship at the beginning of Ruins of Azlant but they don't play a big part in the adventure and they leave pretty quickly. The colony itself has no half-orcs, barring the PCs.
That's just from the two latest ones.
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i Think Planetouched, Templates and Hybrids can simply be handled as Ancestry feats. i also think that age should be a purely Aesthetic or Cosmetic thing rather than a mechanical thing so as to not penalize people who want to play Harry Potter or Arya Stark alongside Dumbledore or Kain. in fact, i'd allow you to use age or size to explain certain strengths or weaknesses you spent points on but i wouldn't let you use it to milk bonuses or penalties.