Fabricate tech shenanigans


General Discussion


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I feel "fabricate tech" is the new "wall of iron" in the amount of shenanigans it allows.

Improvised weaponry:
The magic hack can't create weapons, but it can create a fire extinguisher, for example, which could easily be used as an improvised weapon.

Springs:
There's no limit to creating traps that require an external force to be loaded. So one could create a bear trap and set it up, as long as it's used within the time limit.

Potential energy:
The technomancer can create a 100 pound item and drop it from some height. It's hard to imagine the damage that would be done by 2000ft of Adamantine alloy cable line dropped from a starship hovering a few miles above ground.

Materials and pieces:
The hack doesn't specify material. An industrial drill comes with a tungsten drillhead. It has 1.7 the density of lead. A tungsten rod is a powerful item to play with.

Magnets:
Lots of industrial machinery use large neodymium magnets. Even at a fraction of 100 pounds, a magnet that large is a scary item.

Mix and match:
Case 1: The technomancer opens a window sees his target coming, six second later he pushes over the edge a 100 pound tungsten industrial drill head.

Case 2: The technomancer, escaping pursuers, goes around a corner and creates a human sized spring loaded rat trap.

Case 3: The technomancer sees enemies down a sloped corridor. An industrial mining-cart steel-serrated-wheel, rolls down and over them.


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Honestly, the hack has been written in a way that almost completely denies shenanigans.

Thanshin wrote:

Improvised weaponry:

The magic hack can't create weapons, but it can create a fire extinguisher, for example, which could easily be used as an improvised weapon.

Yes, but an improvised weapon both takes attack roll penalties for being improvised and damage penalties for being archaic (in most cases). Its hardly a very effective weapon.

Thanshin wrote:

Springs:

There's no limit to creating traps that require an external force to be loaded. So one could create a bear trap and set it up, as long as it's used within the time limit.

Technological items is a category defined by the CRB in a table that lists all the available tech items. Other books have explicitly added other tech items. Springs are not one of those, nor are traps of any kind. You could house rule it, but its not part of this hack's base functionality to create these things. More importantly, since there are no rules for simple mechanical bear traps traps in Starfinder (AFAIK), you're at the mercy of your GM as to how effective/ineffective this might be.

Thanshin wrote:

Potential energy:

The technomancer can create a 100 pound item and drop it from some height. It's hard to imagine the damage that would be done by 2000ft of Adamantine alloy cable line dropped from a starship hovering a few miles above ground.

OTOH, this creates 10 bulk of mundane material. Since damage from falling objects entirely depends on size (for medium objects this is 3d6 max per the CRB) it doesn't matter whether you create a tungsten rod or just buy a 10 bulk block of iron. Yeah, it sucks you can't deliver tungsten rod-based annihilation, but those are the rules we have.

None of these seem like particularly powerful or exploitative options.


Cellion wrote:
Technological items is a category defined by the CRB in a table that lists all the available tech items. Other books have explicitly added other tech items.

That interpretation isn't sustainable. Multiple instances of "Tecnological item" in the crb and aa apply to all kinds of items absent from the list.

Can engineering repair a fridge? Can Detect Tech detect a microwave? Can Discharge disrup a wrist watch?

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The CRB also has this to say about technological items:

Quote:
Of course, there’s a vast array of technological devices available in most settlements—well beyond the number that could possibly be presented in any real-world book. In general, any minor piece of equipment with a real-world equivalent (alarm clock, camera, digital keys for Vehicles you own, timer, watch, and so on) can be purchased with GM approval, costs 5 credits and has light bulk.

Bear traps, tungsten drill bits, and magnets are all potentially valid with GM approval.

Scarab Sages

Is a computer technology?
If so, the shenanigans are ridonkulous as computers have no tech level, so you could make a tier 10 beast at level 2 and give it an AI, then you can make Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Sense Motive checks with a +20 modifier.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

What's a tech level? Is that like an item's level? If so, computers have an item level equal to twice their tier if I recall correctly.

Dark Archive

Ravingdork wrote:
What's a tech level? Is that like an item's level? If so, computers have an item level equal to twice their tier if I recall correctly.

I also thought this, but haven't been able to locate verbiage that verifies this - can you point me at the right location?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Joe Jungers wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
What's a tech level? Is that like an item's level? If so, computers have an item level equal to twice their tier if I recall correctly.
I also thought this, but haven't been able to locate verbiage that verifies this - can you point me at the right location?

After performing a pretty thourough search of the Core Rulebook, I can't say I've had any luck finding it.

Every item has to have a level though, if only to help determine its general durability.


I had such a player in PF, he played a conjurer and tried to exploit his class ability in similar way.
I think abilities/spells like this should never be used outsider their power level or authors intent.
For spells I always rule that "improvised" weapon spells (e.g. the falling iron bar) deal damage one level below a similar equal level dedicated attack spell.

For this class abilities I would deny any offensive use of it (using this offensive wasn't clearly the intent of the designer, otherwise you wouldn't have the "no weapon" part in the description^^).


Joe Jungers wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
What's a tech level? Is that like an item's level? If so, computers have an item level equal to twice their tier if I recall correctly.
I also thought this, but haven't been able to locate verbiage that verifies this - can you point me at the right location?

I was also under this impression but was told in a recent SFS game that it isn't the case, at least by RAW. I did a search through the CRB and SRDs and couldn't find it stated explicitly. So for SFS, my Tier 1 computer was only a level 1 item, per my GMs.

However, I do think this is RAI. If you look at the craft rules on page 235, using the computer skill, you can only make a computer with a Tier equal to half your ranks (round down) in the computer skill. So, for at least crafting, a Tier 5 computer is just as difficult to craft as a level 10 weapon. Computers also count as double level for Starships (a Tier 10 ship has a Tier 5 Computer).

So, for my home game, I've house-ruled that the computer has an item level of twice it's tier.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If computers are allowed, they would be limited to no more than 10 bulk and they would be of average quality.

An average quality computer, I believe, would not include any modules, upgrades, or countermeasures. That means no AI, no data modules, and no miniaturization. Additionally, Tier 3 is the highest tier computer that fits the bulk requirements.

That sounds pretty fair to me. It's the modules and upgrades that allow the most abuse.


Tryn wrote:
For this class abilities I would deny any offensive use of it (using this offensive wasn't clearly the intent of the designer, otherwise you wouldn't have the "no weapon" part in the description^^).

How do you "deny any offensive use"?

PC: "I create a washing machine."
GM: "Ok. It's created."
PC: "I push it through the window."
GM: "That's an offensive use, so I deny it."
PC: "Ok... What happens in-game?"
GM: "...Your character goes back in time and the spell doesn't work."


The question of what item level a computer is has come up a few times, and apparently the answer is here (actually in the blog here) - item level is twice tier

The Exchange

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

This is definitely interesting, I can't find anything in the CRB that states the item level of a computer, but this blog post from Owen from a month before the game was released states, "[i]n general, a computer has an item level equal to double its tier." http://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo5ljy4&page=3?Override-All-Secur ity-Computers-and-Hacking


That was honestly always how I assumed it would be because of the craft rules on page 235. With other gear, you need ranks equal to the level of the item, but with computers, specifically, you need ranks equal to twice the tier of the computer. So I just sort of assumed a Tier 1 computer was a level 2 item (and so on). I got corrected the first time I played SFS because I put my tier 1 computer down on my sheet as a level 2 item, but after reading that blog, I think the RAI (if not RAW) is that the levels are in deed double the tier.

It'd be nice to get a FAQ clarification. It's kind of important for those of us that want to have our own computers in SFS.

The Exchange

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I think a separate thread in the rules forum covering the issue is a good idea.


Shaudius wrote:
I think a separate thread in the rules forum covering the issue is a good idea.

Like the one I linked to? (and one or two others from just after SF was released)

Another one might give things a nudge to get a FAQ though.

The Exchange

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Totally missed your comment, I think a bump of that thread is on order with people FAQ requesting it.


I bumped and FAQ'd the linked thread.


Thanshin wrote:
Tryn wrote:
For this class abilities I would deny any offensive use of it (using this offensive wasn't clearly the intent of the designer, otherwise you wouldn't have the "no weapon" part in the description^^).

How do you "deny any offensive use"?

PC: "I create a washing machine."
GM: "Ok. It's created."
PC: "I push it through the window."
GM: "That's an offensive use, so I deny it."
PC: "Ok... What happens in-game?"
GM: "...Your character goes back in time and the spell doesn't work."

A much easier, and less absurd, answer: "Well, yes, you can do that. It does basically nothing, as the washing machine shatters into a million pieces from the stress."


How does a washing machine function if it's that fragile? It does need to be able to handle throwing a bunch of water around, and water's pretty heavy.


It functions by virtue of "I am a magically created object". It is strong enough to do what its intended function is, that's it.

Which is to say, when the rules for an ability specifically say "This cannot be used for X", trying to argue for why you should totally be able to ignore this rule is not putting yourself in the best of light.


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People are arguing whether a magically created washing machine used as a weapon should be rejected? GMs should generally say yes to player inventiveness as it's fun and makes a better story. Of course, GMs should say no the game breaking exploits but a Fabricate Tech washing machine pushed out of a window isn't one of them: situational; non-repeatable in the same scene (move away from the drop zone); one-shot; weak save DC; burns a limited resource. The Technomancer is better off casting Magic Missile.

If a player thinks it's funnier to push a washing machine out a window than to cast Magic Missile, why say no to that?


warmachine wrote:

People are arguing whether a magically created washing machine used as a weapon should be rejected? GMs should generally say yes to player inventiveness as it's fun and makes a better story. Of course, GMs should say no the game breaking exploits but a Fabricate Tech washing machine pushed out of a window isn't one of them: situational; non-repeatable in the same scene (move away from the drop zone); one-shot; weak save DC; burns a limited resource. The Technomancer is better off casting Magic Missile.

If a player thinks it's funnier to push a washing machine out a window than to cast Magic Missile, why say no to that?

Because in my experience, good GMs are a rare commodity.


At the end of the day, there's nothing in the rules for this hack denying all offensive actions with said hack. Sure, you can't create a weapon, but luckily, a washing machine isn't a weapon. Even if you drop it on someone... still a washing machine.

Deciding that you know the intent of the person who wrote the rules for the hack is pure folly. Either follow what the hack says it does, or tell your players before they create a technomancer about your house rule.


Azalah wrote:
warmachine wrote:

People are arguing whether a magically created washing machine used as a weapon should be rejected? GMs should generally say yes to player inventiveness as it's fun and makes a better story. Of course, GMs should say no the game breaking exploits but a Fabricate Tech washing machine pushed out of a window isn't one of them: situational; non-repeatable in the same scene (move away from the drop zone); one-shot; weak save DC; burns a limited resource. The Technomancer is better off casting Magic Missile.

If a player thinks it's funnier to push a washing machine out a window than to cast Magic Missile, why say no to that?

Because in my experience, good GMs are a rare commodity.

Let me get this straight. Pushing Fabricate Tech created washing machines out of windows to use as a weapon should be blocked because good GMs are rare. Due to the lack of good GMs, we should block an example of good GMing.


Or just grab any piece of heavy machinery nearby and toss it out the window instead, saving up your resources.


That's so much less cool, though. Also, what if that thing has DR/appliances?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Azalah wrote:
warmachine wrote:

People are arguing whether a magically created washing machine used as a weapon should be rejected? GMs should generally say yes to player inventiveness as it's fun and makes a better story. Of course, GMs should say no the game breaking exploits but a Fabricate Tech washing machine pushed out of a window isn't one of them: situational; non-repeatable in the same scene (move away from the drop zone); one-shot; weak save DC; burns a limited resource. The Technomancer is better off casting Magic Missile.

If a player thinks it's funnier to push a washing machine out a window than to cast Magic Missile, why say no to that?

Because in my experience, good GMs are a rare commodity.

And In my experience, it's the players saying "no" rather than the GM. Why waste time and resources on something that might work, when magic missile is gauranteed? I've found that such shennannigans, whether or not they are balanced, just gets on everyone's nerves. People just don't like waiting on a complicated ruling from the GM just so the clown can have their way when they could be earning their XP in half the time.


Sorry, that's the exact OPPOSITE of what I was trying to say. I DON'T want pushing washing machines out of a window to be blocked. I think it would be bad if it was blocked.

The joke I was trying to make was that bad GMs are common, and so most would block it.

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