Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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Well let's look at the sources.
In their raw form, UPBs have a bulk of 1 per 1,000 UPBs, though when aligned and configured they can easily take up less bulk, and when configured for a specific purpose that calls for a minimum size and bracing (possibly combining them with inert materials), they can have a higher bulk.
UPBs are so ubiquitous that they are usable as currency in many major settlements and trade hubs. While credsticks are a more convenient and secure way to carry value, UPBs have the advantage of direct utility and untraceability. They are a popular way to pay smugglers and criminals, but they are also useful for trade missions to systems with UPB technology that don’t use credits as currency. The value of the Pact Worlds’ credit is based on the economic utility of a single UPB.
TABLE 7–35: TRADE GOODS
ITEM / PRICE / BULK
Fine art / varies / varies
Gem / varies / --
Grain / 1 / 1
Textiles, common / 1 / L
Textiles, fine / 100 / L
UPB (1000) / 1000 / 1
Gary Bush says the last row of this table implies that UPBs are to be traded per 1000. I disagree; I think he's reading too much into it. It merely sums up the preceding paragraph, which says that 1000 UPBs weigh 1 bulk. It could have listed them singly, but then they'd have had bulk 0.001 and that goes against the Starfinder encumbrance style.
The introductory text says that the value of the Credit is based on what you can do with a single UPB, (craft a 1-credit sandwich with 0.1 bulk out of a 0.001 bulk UPB). They're used as currency. Nobody tells you that you can spend 1$ bills only in stacks of $1000 even though we all know they add up to that. If it was intended that you could only spend UPB per 1000, but they're still used as a currency in many places, that's really surprising enough that it needs to be called out explicitly.
The "if it's listed in parentheses then you MUST buy in those lots" thing is IMO much over-interpreted. Ammunition is specifically called out to be sold in multiples (complete cartridges, fully charged batteries etc); there's no actual text in the CRB saying that goes for UPBs, just peoples' habits from buying arrows in PF/D&D. I don't think arrows and UPBs are really that comparable, since UPBs are a trade good/currency, and much more valuable.
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Current Ruling: For Organized Play purposes, UPBs are purchased in lots of 1,000 for 1,000 credits. I'll update some verbiage in the future to address this, but for now, use the above guideline.
On a related note, I'm looking for ways to work UPBs into future products.
So a questionable workaround that lets you buy them in any quantity you want (even if you're technically BUYING them in lots of 1,000) is questionable, and not something you should do. It's against the spirit of the rule and doesn't have any direct rules support for it. There's no "you can sell upbs in any quantity" rule statement, just a (very sensible) argument that you can. Even very sensible rules arguments don't hold up against direct statements.
I am all for having the rule changed. I think losing your downtime is more than enough to penalize crafting: even if you have 2 ranks in infamy you're still "paying" with your skill ranks. But I don't think you should try to rules lawyer around rules that are in place and clearly intended.
Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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As far as I can tell, there is no official campaign ruling on this question. This is why I created this thread so we can discuss and debate the merits.
I agree with BNW that there is nothing the CRB that controls the sale of UPBs. All we really know is they can be bought in lots of 1000 for 1000 credits, they are used for currency in some locations, and used in crafting.
A homegame GM can determine what they want on this. For us, that is campaign leadership.
I think of this from a customer / merchant standpoint. It is very customer friendly to exchange, on a 1 or 1 basis, a UPB for 1 credit, but not necessarily for the merchant. The merchant has to keep track of the lots and manage their inventory. If they have to start managing a lot of 925, and a lot of 999, and a lot of 17, it starts to get to be a pain. The merchant has to pay to store the stuff, has costs to acquire the material, etc. We are assuming lots of different sizes can be combined but no indication of that is in the CRB.
For me, I think the player should be the one to manage their own lots. Buy 1000 UPB. Craft something on your down time that takes 250 UPB and have 750 left. If the player wishes to craft something later and they don't have enough UPB, they have buy more in a lot 1000.
It is resource management. Something we have to do now.
I have not tried the craft rules yet. Maybe I should to see if I understand this better.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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I think of this from a customer / merchant standpoint. It is very customer friendly to exchange, on a 1 or 1 basis, a UPB for 1 credit, but not necessarily for the merchant.
Well the big trade-off seems to be: credits weigh nothing, but are traceable. UPB weigh a bit, but they're completely anonymous. In other words, no sales tax.
The merchant has to keep track of the lots and manage their inventory. If they have to start managing a lot of 925, and a lot of 999, and a lot of 17, it starts to get to be a pain. The merchant has to pay to store the stuff, has costs to acquire the material, etc. We are assuming lots of different sizes can be combined but no indication of that is in the CRB.
As far as I can see UPBs are entirely generic. You can combine all of those lots to manufacture something that costs more than 1000 UPB so why could you not combine the lots?
For me, I think the player should be the one to manage their own lots. Buy 1000 UPB. Craft something on your down time that takes 250 UPB and have 750 left. If the player wishes to craft something later and they don't have enough UPB, they have buy more in a lot 1000.
It is resource management. Something we have to do now.
I have not tried the craft rules yet. Maybe I should to see if I understand this better.
It's resource management, but that doesn't mean we need to create needless and artificial extra obstacles. The resource management choice you make is: how much of my weightless credits will I turn into weight-carrying UPBs?
It's like transferring between gold and diamond dust in PFS. Nobody's going to say you can't combine several packages of diamond dust to make a big enough amount to cast a spell, or that you couldn't sell part of your stockpile of it.
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I have not tried the craft rules yet. Maybe I should to see if I understand this better.
So you're arguing on a subject you haven't even read? Half the information on UPBs is in the crafting rules.
No more "real world" examples, please.
We're talking about grains of rice that can turn into a land speeder, a gala dress, or a magical potion of healing.
1. They're ubiquitous
2. They can be used as currency
3. They require skill rank investment to use
4. They provide miniscule theoretical benefit over purchased gear (they have slightly higher hardness and HP to resist sundering)
So if I want to craft a 50 credit Medpatch, it costs me 50 credits or 50 credits worth of UPBs for the exact same effect.
The argument that the weight and unit cost table trade goods overrules the crafting system is like saying:
To craft a 4 lb Artisan Outfit worth 1 gp, I need to buy 24 gp worth of wool before I start ctrafting (because the trade goods table lists wool as 6 gp per 1 lb bundle).
To craft a 4 oz platinum ring worth 10 gp, I need to buy 500 gp worth of platinum before I start crafting (because the trade goods table lists platinum as 500 gp per 1 lb ingot, actually it doesn't say ingots, so by your logic, if I want to convert gold coins to platinum, I need to do it in 500 gp lots).
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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Are all "smugglers and criminals" paid in 1000 unit increments?
I don't know. It has not been clarified. So they would be paid in credits or gear or maybe 1000 units of UPBs.
Remember, there is no such thing as "RAW". People liked to lean on it in Pathfinder, and it only furthered arguments and divisiveness. Let's not start using it in Starfinder.
We have to use something. If we don't use the words as they are written in the CRB, we are just making up what we want. Go play a home game if you want that.
We have to start someplace. Where do you believe we should start from?
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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I have not tried the craft rules yet. Maybe I should to see if I understand this better.So you're arguing on a subject you haven't even read? Half the information on UPBs is in the crafting rules.
Never said I have not read the rules. I said I have not tried crafting so have not worked out the process.
No more "real world" examples, please.
Yea, I agree. They are problematic.
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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We're talking about grains of rice that can turn into a land speeder, a gala dress, or a magical potion of healing.
1. They're ubiquitous
2. They can be used as currency
3. They require skill rank investment to use
4. They provide miniscule theoretical benefit over purchased gear (they have slightly higher hardness and HP to resist sundering)So if I want to craft a 50 credit Medpatch, it costs me 50 credits or 50 credits worth of UPBs for the exact same effect.
The argument that the weight and unit cost table trade goods overrules the crafting system is like saying:
To craft a 4 lb Artisan Outfit worth 1 gp, I need to buy 24 gp worth of wool before I start crafting (because the trade goods table lists wool as 6 gp per 1 lb bundle).
To craft a 4 oz platinum ring worth 10 gp, I need to buy 500 gp worth of platinum before I start crafting (because the trade goods table lists platinum as 500 gp per 1 lb ingot, actually it doesn't say ingots, so by your logic, if I want to convert gold coins to platinum, I need to do it in 500 gp lots).
I am not making a weight vs unit cost argument. I tried but never completed the post because it did not make sense. I am making the argument that no where in CRB does it talk about buying or selling UBPs in any unit other than 1000.
And along the same vine as not using real world examples, I don't think trying to use examples for Pathfinder makes any sense.
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We have to use something. If we don't use the words as they are written in the CRB, we are just making up what we want. Go play a home game if you want that.
Yeah. No.
There is absolutely no reason to adopt a raw is everything reading. Even for PFS. Especially for PFS.
First off, the rules are NOT written that way. The authors will tell you they are not written that way. The track record for absolute raw being right when the rules are clarified is terrible. So why on earth would you try to read them that way?
Secondly if you goal is consistency absolute raw is the absolute worst way to do that. 90+% of people can agree on the intent of a rule or statement. Parsing the exactly meaning of a statement in excruciatingly dissected detail plinkos a statements meaning all over the place. English does not objectively break down into meaning when you write it plainly and readably (two very important considerations for a gaming company). It doesn't even break down objectively when you TRY to write it objectively, thats why lawyers are so rich.
Third "its raw" is the number one justification for every questionable broken build thats going to have to get nerf hammered. People have an enormous problem sorting "Raw" from "things that must be true from the raw and are is therefore raw itself"
Reading the intent is how you're SUPPOSED to read the rules. RAI is not home game home brew or any less THE RULES than the raw. Every player that has demanded Pathfinder Sola RAW has been extremely disappointed with how PFS actually works.
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I think the Pathfinder system is a very goid analogy to the argument you're trying to make here.
PF has a system for crafting AND it has a trade goods table.
SF has a system for crafting AND it has a trade goods table.
If the trade goods table affected the crafting system for either game, it would ruin the system to the point of unusability except for the hardest of hard core RPers with a character with a craft-related background.
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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We have to use something. If we don't use the words as they are written in the CRB, we are just making up what we want. Go play a home game if you want that.Yeah. No.
There is absolutely no reason to adopt a raw is everything reading. Even for PFS. Especially for PFS.
First off, the rules are NOT written that way. The authors will tell you they are not written that way. The track record for absolute raw being right when the rules are clarified is terrible. So why on earth would you try to read them that way?
Secondly if you goal is consistency absolute raw is the absolute worst way to do that. 90+% of people can agree on the intent of a rule or statement. Parsing the exactly meaning of a statement in excruciatingly dissected detail plinkos a statements meaning all over the place. English does not objectively break down into meaning when you write it plainly and readably (two very important considerations for a gaming company). It doesn't even break down objectively when you TRY to write it objectively, thats why lawyers are so rich.
Third "its raw" is the number one justification for every questionable broken build thats going to have to get nerf hammered. People have an enormous problem sorting "Raw" from "things that must be true from the raw and are is therefore raw itself"
Reading the intent is how you're SUPPOSED to read the rules. RAI is not home game home brew or any less THE RULES than the raw. Every player that has demanded Pathfinder Sola RAW has been extremely disappointed with how PFS actually works.
I don't believe the "rules as written" should be followed all the time. If guidance has been given, then of course it needs to be followed.
Your reasoning is confusing. It appears you are saying that we should not follow what is written in the rules until the designers have given us what their intent is/was. So in the mean time we just go with the majority? Doing that got us to the whole magical ranged weapon and ammo debate.
I have not seen any intent provided on UBPs and their interaction with credits. Please share what I have missed.
Since this is new territory and intent is not known (I might have missed it), my position remains; UBPs can only be exchanged in lots of 1000 for 1000 credits because that is what is written in the CRB.
When guidance is given then that is what should be followed by everyone. Even if the rules as written is different. An example of this can be found in space combat.
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I believe BNW's reasoning was: When we read the written text (or are given verbal instructions for that matter), we always interpret the intent for without telepathy, there is never a perfection 100% communication. Thus we are always interpreting the intent of rules, and we, the organized campaign players, get into trouble when we demand another written intent from the designers (e.g. the magical ranged weapons and ammo debate).
Regardless, there is a whole section in the intent that both Lau and I have pointed out and you brush aside, so I don't know what the value of pointing you to page 233 again will be.
I trust this thread was not designed for us to convince you, but for the two sides of the argument to debate before the designers (i.e. Thurston) make the UPBs can only be bought in 1000 unit lots official in the guide. I want to change his mind. Therefore, when an argument is put forth by the opposite side of the argument, I will debate it. Not to change the poster's mind, but to demonstrate to the audience why it is wrong.
This decision will kill crafting, and as Nefreet pointed out, make the option to use Chameleon Cells and Climbing Suckers incompatible with wearing clothes.
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I have not seen any intent provided on UBPs and their interaction with credits. Please share what I have missed.
There is a rule From thursty which i cited, that says that UPBs must be purchased in lots of 1,000 in society. This is clearly the intent (i have no idea WHY but its clearly the intent)
Buying 1,000 UBPs for 1,000 credits 1and then selling 999 UPBs for 999 credits is functionally buying 1 UPB , which you can't do, so that workaround shouldn't work.
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Remember, there is no such thing as "RAW".If we don't use the words as they are written in the CRB, we are just making up what we want.
You and I are reading the same text and coming to different conclusions. That alone should show you that the concept of "RAW" is a fallacy.
You focus on the weight chart, and come to the conclusion that UPBs can only be bought or sold in 1000 unit lots.
I focus on the aspect of them being "ubiquitous", "currency", and used as example to pay smugglers (who most certainly aren't all paid the same amount for every job).
I can just as easily call my interpretation "RAW" as you can yours. I choose not to, because I'm aware the term is meaningless.
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I have not seen any intent provided on UBPs and their interaction with credits. Please share what I have missed.There is a rule From thursty which i cited, that says that UPBs must be purchased in lots of 1,000 in society. This is clearly the intent (i have no idea WHY but its clearly the intent)
That's not actually an example of intent. That's an Organized Play ruling. It is even phrased as 'For Organized Play purposes,' which suggests a deviation from the original intent.
Why the OPC felt the need to limit crafting in this way, I do not understand.
Other than people doggedly thrusting their fingers at the Trade Goods table, nobody has given me a reason let alone a mechanical reason why it needs to be this way.
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That's not actually an example of intent. That's an Organized Play ruling. It is even phrased as 'For Organized Play purposes,' which suggests a deviation from the original intent.
Or a clarification of it.
Or that there's a vague thing going on and we're going to clarify things this way
What I meant here though (which is clear with the rest of the post) is the intent of organized play is to have the UPBs bought in lots of 1,000 (because as you pointed out, its a flat out ruling to that effect) While there is no statement that UPBs can't be SOLD in lots of 1 to 999 doing so violates the intent of having them bought in lots of 1,000.
Other than people doggedly thrusting their fingers at the Trade Goods table, nobody has given me a reason let alone a mechanical reason why it needs to be this way.
I think i've been more than clear that I'm all for changing this rule I am merely adamant on what the rule currently is. They're bought and sold in lots of 1,000.
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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I have not seen any intent provided on UBPs and their interaction with credits. Please share what I have missed.There is a rule From thursty which i cited, that says that UPBs must be purchased in lots of 1,000 in society. This is clearly the intent (i have no idea WHY but its clearly the intent)
Buying 1,000 UBPs for 1,000 credits 1and then selling 999 UPBs for 999 credits is functionally buying 1 UPB , which you can't do, so that workaround shouldn't work.
Ok I did miss that. Thanks.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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The thing is, Thursty did not write that page. He's reading it, just like us. And interpreted the table to mean UPBs were meant to be bought per 1000, so he wrote that into the Guide. He's adding a more explicit rule than the RAW CRB really had.
Because the RAW CRB just has a line staying that 1:1 translates to 1000:1000 and that a 1000 weighs 1 bulk.
That's all that you can get from the RAW. The idea that since it only lists a price per 1000 means that you're only intended to buy per 1000, is just an interpretation.
And we're arguing that it's a bad interpretation, based on the much longer description of what UPBs really are. And therefore we would like Thursty to change his ruling to what we think better fits the design intent of UPBs.
Now you can say "well it's your interpretation against mine so it's all relative". Yes, but I think some interpretations are better for the game, and therefore we should pick those.
Crafting in Starfinder is set up very differently than in Pathfinder. It does not generate extra wealth. You have to invest in some skills, and if you have the time, and the foresight to stock up on UPBs, you have a bit more flexibility with the gear you have at your disposal. Crafting is meant to be something you can actually do in Starfinder, during an adventure, because crafting something takes about four hours of in-game time. That's very different from the Pathfinder crafting rules which were basically meant for downtime.
However, for crafting to be reasonably doable, it would help if we didn't have to make 1000 credit downpayments on the off chance we want to improvize a few 50 credit tools during the adventure.
So that's why I say that for SFS, the interpretation that you can get UPBs in smaller quantities is a better interpretation, because it renders more of the game functional.
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One of the Starfinder Society adventure boons is 500 UBPs, that I am not allowed to sell, IF I devote 5 downtimes to doing it. I did it because I didn't have a profession skill at the time.
I should go back to those poor dirt miners and demand 500 more UPBs because you can't break up a set of 1000 like that. Jerks. Anyway, I would be happy to actually use my engineering to build something with them, but the cheapest Flame Doshko is 750 credits, which means, in order to craft this doshko with my bonus 500 UPBs, I will have to spend 1000 credits in order to get the 250 more UPBs I need to craft the thing, and that leaves me with... 750 UPBs.
Maybe I could make an Autotarget Rifle... nope, that costs 755 credits. I'd have to buy another thousand UPBs, which would leave me with... 995 UPBs and at this point I've spent 2,000 credits to make 1505 credits worth of stuff with my 500 "free" UPBs.
Seriously, though, having UPBs is handy insofar as you can make a lot of minor stuff like titanium cable or spacesuits or other jive that you need as the situation requires, but having you buy them in lots of 1000 is just going to guarantee that you have these scrap remainders that are nigh useless for actual gameplay.
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It's a problem when the item you want to craft is 40 credits, though.
That was my initial issue. A 40 credit item that you can't buy. It must be crafted.
I never plan on ever crafting anything else with that character. Ever.
So spending 1000 credits for a 40 credit item is rather ridiculous. IMO.
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It is if you don't have some thing/things that cost exactly 630 credits to build later, as Zoggy described above. I'm sitting on empty units that could have gone toward gear.
Let's say I have Engineering Rank 2 and Lashunta Ringwear I (415 credits) and a tactical semi-auto pistol (260 credits) and 1200 credits. I want to build a flame pistol (470 credits) to add to my armory and upgrade my armor to Basic Iridishell (755 credits).
I can sell back my Ringwear for 41 credits for a total of 1241 credits.
I could now buy a Basic Iridishell and a flame pistol for 1225 credits.
Or, if I wanted to "be a tinkerer" and build a suit of iridishell using my 2 ranks of Engineering and 755 UPBs, I need to spend 1000 credits for the UPBs and 470 for the flame pistol for a total of 1470 credits (245 more than I have).
Sure, I have 245 more UPBs to craft with, but now I have to put off my flame pistol for 2 more subtier 1-2 adventures to accrue the 1000 credits to buy 1000 more UPBs to build the flame pistol. Now I have 775 UPBs that I'm sitting on rather than gear that I could have bought.
...unless I just don't craft and only buy things. In which case, why even put a crafting system in SFS play?
The only conceivable exploit i can see from crafting is having 2 infamy and buying things from outside the core rules at your level instead of level -2. But then you're ">charged"> with both your dayjob and your ranks in crafting skills.
I'll point out the Roboticist theme from the pact worlds book, which has been approved for Society play, can already create technological items outside the core rulebook at level + 1. So I'm guessing the level restriction thing is not a concern as its a similar use case. Otherwise I assume they would have modified the Roboticist theme when they approved it.
To be honest, that is potentially the largest issue I can see with crafting at the moment, which none of the current discussion addresses. Not really sure how big of a deal getting items outside the core rulebook 1 level earlier is though, when compared to things like the Icon's cost reductions at 12th.
The actual restrictions on purchase and sale of UPBs, as well as whether you can craft during an adventure or only during day job downtime, don't address it. I'm not actually sure what problems the UPB purchases/sale restrictions and when you can craft restrictions are aiming to solve.
What problems does one run into when using the less restrictive rulings, i.e. UPB purchases in any amount, resale in any amount, and crafting when appropriate during an adventure?