First Edition Replay when Second Edition Launches


Pathfinder Society Playtest

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Paizo Employee ***** Organized Play Manager

This thread is for the discussion of what role replay will have in the first edition campaign when Pathfinder Society second edition launches in 2019.

For more context to this thread, visit Pathfinder Society 2: Replay, Rewards, and Rebuilds and Pathfinder Playtest and Pathfinder Society FAQ.

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Online—PbP aka Hmm

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THE OPTIONS THAT JOHN COMPTON LISTED IN THE BLOG:

The Inimitable John Compton wrote:

Option 1—No Further Replay: There are already some replay options out there, and everyone would be able to fill out a new Expanded Narrative boon (i.e. "recharge the GM stars' replay" boon) each year. However, there wouldn't be any additional allowances for replaying beyond what already exist.

Option 2—Favored Character: This model allows each participant to select one Pathfinder Society PC to ignore all replay restrictions. That could mean playing a new PC all the way from 1st level to 20th, or you could make an 8th-level PC your favored character in order to play through all of the Tier 7–11 and higher adventures. Whatever the case, everyone would be able to fulfill that limitless story with another PC.

Option 3—Heightened GM Star Recharge: In this model, the Expanded Narrative opportunity continues but has some capacity for more recharging than normal. That might mean someone could instantly begin a new Expanded Narrative Chronicle sheet the moment she fills out the first one, not waiting for a new season. It might instead mean that there's a limit of one sheet per season, but the sheet grants more than one replay for each GM star. There are likely other variations on this approach.

Option 4—Unlimited Replay: As noted above, we're unlikely to institute unlimited replay in First Edition, even after the new campaign launches. If that's something you'd want to see anyway, go ahead an say so, but please also convey what you'd want to see were unlimited replay not selected.

Of these options, I am most in favor of Options 3 and 5. Three is great because it encourages GMing during this transition period when everyone is trying to get more playtime in.

What is Option 5, you ask? I’m so glad you asked!

Option 5—Expanded Replay on All Tiers of Evergreens: Rather than open up replay globally, I’d like us to extend replay to all tiers of an evergreen, the way we currently have in SFS. So House of Harmonious Wisdom could be replayed on any tier from 1-5. Gallows of Madness could be replayed on any tier from 1-3. This will not only make it easier for folks to get their characters into higher levels, it would reduce bookkeeping for VOs and the player base.

Thank you for considering my post!

Hmm

Grand Lodge *

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I think option 4 would make most sense. Without new scenarios being created for PF1, the number of play opportunities will decrease until for the extreme case you will only be able to play evergreens.

Option 4-B
I would propose an modified option 4 where the seasons are phased in over the next few years. Season 0 & 1 become evergreen the first year, then seasons 2 & 3 the next year and so-on ...

The Exchange ***** Venture-Agent, North Carolina—Charlotte aka eddv

I am just going to copy/paste over my response from the blog thread:

Quote:


I would like to see unlimited replay instituted for a couple of reasons. This might not become apparent at first, but there will come a time where scheduling 1e content at all will become a challenge, while there are only a few players/GMs for whom limited options are a problem at the moment, after there is no more content being produced more and more people will arrive at that point.

I would like to see 1e content remain to be easy to schedule to help me be able to maintain a full games offering ESPECIALLY in the first year or two of the new campaign, especially since Starfinder still hasn't really caught on very much locally.

If you really see this as a bridge too far for some reason, then I think there HAS to be some way for players who do not often GM to be able to get replays. The favored character option is from that perspective my favorite of your favored options, but I think it could use expansion - maybe the distinction can be changed every 6 months/year?

The part I most want to emphasize is that there should definitely be a way for people who are primarily players to get replays in after the new campaign launches. Not everyone has GMed 40-50 games and as RSP has proven to be very popular and effective at spurring people to get behind the GM screen, getting in that number of games with the available GM slots can be challenging even among people who want to contribute.

That doesn't HAVE to be option 4, even option 2 would be very helpful.

Grand Lodge ***** Regional Venture-Coordinator, Great Lakes aka TwilightKnight

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I prefer Option 1, but would be okay with option 2. For me personally, option 4 is a deal-breaker. Meaning I will continue to offer it as an organizer but would not play or GM it.

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Online—PbP aka Hmm

Bob Jonquet wrote:
I prefer Option 1, but would be okay with option 2. For me personally, option 4 is a deal-breaker. Meaning I will continue to offer it as an organizer but would not play or GM it.

Option 4 is a deal-breaker for me as well.

Hmm

Silver Crusade ***** Venture-Captain, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

I am fine with 1-5 (and really want to see no. 5 sooner than later), but really would like to see some sort of limit on no.4 especially when it comes to the chronicles.
For the sake of those that still have plenty to experience in the old campaign, access to some chronicle rewards (Season 4 etc.) should be limited.

Like Bob, I would still offer it as an organizer, but to be honest I will likely be very busy supporting PFS2 and SFS. I currently expect to offer the occasional non-public table on request (which gives me more control in some regards) but unless local players and GMs actively want us to offer PFS1, even today, new releases are much easier to schedule since players can't have played them yet.

****

As the person who argued for Option 4 in 1e, I know it's not going to go over here (actually, my suggestion was you could replay any scenario after 2 years had passed since you played it last).

I think Option 2 (favored character) is a short term patch, but doesn't have long-term viability. I think that keeping the Expanded Narrative system is a good idea, or, if you want to be more allowing, doling out X replays a year in general to all players. I also agree with Option 5 above, HAVE MORE EVERGREENS, particularly early on.

*** ⦵⦵ Venture-Agent, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East

I am definitely for Hilary's Option 5, and I hope that will be the standard for PF2 PFS. It doesn't seem like any more of a problem than the Level 1 replayability, and gets rid of some very fiddly bookkeeping.

I prefer Option 3 to Option 2, though I don't have any real argument against Option 2.

Sovereign Court *** Venture-Agent, Minnesota—Champlin

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I prefer option 3. Anything that encourages folks to GM more in order to play more is a good thing. I'll also point out that I don't really like replaying scenarios. Once you've played it, all the suspense and experience of going through it is gone.

I also don't think that option 4 is a good idea.

Grand Lodge **** Venture-Agent, Australia—NSW—Newcastle aka Tim Schneider 908

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The biggest negative sentiment around my local group around 2E has been from people who've heard of great stories in 1E scenarios that they feel like they'll never get to play. We don't have quite a big enough group to find full tables who haven't played the old lore-heavy scenarios that some of the players want. Replay without credit for numbers is cool, but the problem happens if someone comes in planning to replay to make numbers then another person shows up and they're left with nothing to do & that leaves a bad taste and makes people not want to.

GM replays are one thing, and I use mine to try & fix things in the local group, but a lot of people only have 1 star or less so they don't add up to much. So I doubt Option 3 would help much.

Option 2 is the best of those presented. I'd also recommend expanding the no-credit replay so it's an option regardless of table size - the idea simply being "Everyone gets a game!".

Having said that, my view currently is that if 2E takes off & replaces 1E locally then I'll just run non-PFS games with the lore-heavy scenarios from 1E that the local playerbase wants to do. If replays allow for it they'll be official, if not we'll just have a home-game using remarkably PFS-like characters & not report/credit anything afterwards :)

Dark Archive *****

I am in complete agreement with Hilary about options 3 and 5.

*** Venture-Agent, Minnesota—St. Louis Park aka BretI

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I am in favor of Option 5, expand Replay to all tiers.

Like many, I am strongly against Option 4. Option 3 could be nice, but if I only picked one it would still be Option 5.

That said, I wouldn't mind some Glutton for Punishment style replay options as an organizer. Allow me to let someone replay in order to have a table make.

Would something like that be a possibility?

The Exchange ***** Venture-Agent, North Carolina—Charlotte aka eddv

I honestly don't think option 5 solves very much outside of the online community. Even there it's not that much of a boon to expand the replayability of 5 total adventures - Wounded Wisp, Confirmation, Consortium Compact, House of Harmonious Wisdom and Fallen Family, Broken Name - since Tomes and Halflight Path can already be replayed at all levels and quests are level 1 only.

I agree that its a layer of bookkeeping that I could do without though.

Dark Archive *****

Douglas Edwards wrote:

I honestly don't think option 5 solves very much outside of the online community. Even there it's not that much of a boon to expand the replayability of 5 total adventures - Wounded Wisp, Confirmation, Consortium Compact, House of Harmonious Wisdom and Fallen Family, Broken Name - since Tomes and Halflight Path can already be replayed at all levels and quests are level 1 only.

I agree that its a layer of bookkeeping that I could do without though.

There are only 5 scenarios, but this would also include all the Organized Play sanctioned 1-2 and 1-3 modules, which opens up a lot more options.

Dark Archive *

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Expanding the 'evergreen' range would also cover Gallows of Madness 1, 2, 3, right?

Dark Archive *****

Hilary used Gallows of Madness as an example, so if the proposal gets adopted, I would assume so. To me it makes no sense to expand the scenarios, but not the modules.

Silver Crusade **

I like option 4. Our society died because veterans couldn't replay anything around season 4. I also like option 2, perhaps with a way to get more favored characters...tied to GM glyphs perhaps? You get 1 glyph you can get another favored character? I don't understand what option 3 is.

Maybe there are alot of evergreen scenarios with random encounters or varant encounters. In every 30 scenario year, create 10 evergreens. That in my mind is the best method. Also the most noob and vet friendly.

Another method, which I've long held as as the right way, is to release about 50 scenarios a year. Personally I like the 10 evergreens a year though.

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Pennsylvania—Pittsburgh aka Terminalmancer

Although I was originally in favor of option 4, I've since been convinced it is a bad idea. A reminder of what happened in Season 4 helped a lot. Chronicle farming isn't good for the campaign.

Options 1 is my least favorite; option 2 is intriguing, but seems to reward one style of play and is only the quickest of quick fixes. (Plus there seem to be a number of complex interactions there that would need to be sorted out.)

Options 3 and 5 both have promise and I would support those, no problem.

There might be other options I would support as well, so long as they aren't the craziness of full unlimited replay.

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

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Absolutely put out an evergreen Expanded Narrative. Reward the GMs who continue to support 1E play by making tables happen, allowing them to build up more replays without making it a free for all.

Unlimited replay means I finish running/playing 1e with my home group and move on to other things.

*

Steven Schopmeyer wrote:

Absolutely put out an evergreen Expanded Narrative. Reward the GMs who continue to support 1E play by making tables happen, allowing them to build up more replays without making it a free for all.

Unlimited replay means I finish running/playing 1e with my home group and move on to other things.

This would also have an additional side-benefit of incentivizing 'up and coming' GMs to GM more.

Sovereign Court **** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

I like 3 and 5.

If your problem is "but we only have 1-2 stars around here" - that means there's lots of scenarios you haven't run yet! Stars as an incentive to GM instead of always only playing are working exactly as intended then.

Grand Lodge *** Venture-Lieutenant, Ireland—Newtownabbey aka Ampersandrew

I'm just going to repost what I said on the blog post here.

I've been listening to "unlimited replay is damaging to a campaign" I don't think anyone's ever specified what problems it causes in an organised play campaign. Since I don't know what problems you're avoiding I can't really offer solutions or point out that they no longer apply. So, with that in mind, I'm in favour of unlimited replay in the legacy campaign after we start the new one. it will ease table scheduling and allow people to play out the tail end of multiple characters. Failing that, some kind of Heightened GM star recharge, however we have some players who don't GM and heightened GM star recharge doesn't help us seat them at a table. Favoured Character again doesn't help much with scheduling issues. If we don't add more replay options then scheduling legacy tables becomes more and more problematic over time. What I'd really like to see is unlimited replay with different characters, I'd be happy if this was phased in starting August 2020 (a year after the new campaign starts).

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

Ampersandrew wrote:
I've been listening to "unlimited replay is damaging to a campaign" I don't think anyone's ever specified what problems it causes in an organised play campaign.

Here.

More discussion here.

Grand Lodge *** Venture-Lieutenant, Ireland—Newtownabbey aka Ampersandrew

Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
Ampersandrew wrote:
I've been listening to "unlimited replay is damaging to a campaign" I don't think anyone's ever specified what problems it causes in an organised play campaign.

Here.

More discussion here.

Thanks

Sovereign Court **** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

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Interestingly, if you have few stars, heightened GM star recharge would actually get you a lot more replay.

Consider: on an Expanded Narrative it takes 2 games to recharge star 1, and 3 more games to recharge star 2. So if you only had 1 star you could get 2 replays after 4 GM sessions; while 2 stars you'd have to GM 5 times to get that many recharges.

This is still not a huge amount I think.

Scarab Sages *****

Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:
Bob Jonquet wrote:
I prefer Option 1, but would be okay with option 2. For me personally, option 4 is a deal-breaker. Meaning I will continue to offer it as an organizer but would not play or GM it.

Option 4 is a deal-breaker for me as well.

Hmm

Eventually my urge to get back into playing and GMing will spark, and I'll have roughly 2.5 seasons by August 2019. Unlimited replay would ensure my permanent retirement from PFS1.

Sovereign Court *****

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Class Deck, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Add me to the list of people who like Option 3, and Option 4 would be a dealbreaker.

Scarab Sages *****

I prefer Option 1.

I could get behind Option 2 and 3.

Option 4 is a deal breaker for me.

I don't see a need for Option 5, although I would tolerate it.

Dark Archive ***** Venture-Agent, Ohio—Columbus aka Cirithiel

Anything you implement for PFS1, people are going to want for PFS2. Add me to the crowd that considers #4 a deal-breaker.

With that in mind, I believe the best options are #5 or #1.

I suppprt #5 since it leads to less rules complexity. It made sense to have “only once at level 2” when the only evergreens were for level 1. We now have evergreens for all levels, and will likely have them for PFS2.

Grand Lodge **** Venture-Agent, Utah—Lehi

Replay is like acid to a living campaign. I saw it before in Living Forgotten Realms and the games didn't feel like they meant anything.

If replay is allowed for 1E, I'd prefer that it be delayed some amount of time after the start of 2E. My location runs weekly PFS games (2-3 tables) and the release schedule for 2E won't be nearly enough to supply us with a full 2E roster for a long time, so we'll still be running 1E (Starfinder is also an option I suppose) for quite a while and I'd prefer that 1E not go all cattywampus immediately.

****

tivadar27 wrote:

As the person who argued for Option 4 in 1e, I know it's not going to go over here (actually, my suggestion was you could replay any scenario after 2 years had passed since you played it last).

I think Option 2 (favored character) is a short term patch, but doesn't have long-term viability. I think that keeping the Expanded Narrative system is a good idea, or, if you want to be more allowing, doling out X replays a year in general to all players. I also agree with Option 5 above, HAVE MORE EVERGREENS, particularly early on.

And apparently I belong to the Center of Tivadar's who Can't Read Good... This is replay in 1st edition. Honestly, do what you want. Given this, I think "Favored Character" is a good option, but it likely won't affect me a ton, as I'm likely plotting out some of my final 1e characters at this point.

**** Venture-Agent, Tennessee—Chattanooga aka ZenithTN

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What difference does it make if PFS allows unlimited replay? My lodge is looking forward to unlimited replay. Convention play will go extinct. There's no longer need to report games - there never was much of one. If the local player base wants to replay 100 scenarios, so what?

Oh. I get it. Revenue. A player base content to NOT buy the next, big, shiny thing is bad for business. Nevermind. I withdraw the question, Your Honor.

Shadow Lodge *****

Harold Ervin wrote:
What difference does it make if PFS allows unlimited replay?

You lose GMs who don't want to run for item farmers. You lose players who don't want to find out the rest of the table isn't engaging the story because it's their fourth time through. You shut out new players because the established ones take all the reservations no matter what is offered because they don't have to think 'is this one available to me?'

Unlimited replay will kill 1e even faster than you think not having it will.

Silver Crusade ***** Venture-Captain, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

Tim Schneider wrote:

The biggest negative sentiment around my local group around 2E has been from people who've heard of great stories in 1E scenarios that they feel like they'll never get to play. We don't have quite a big enough group to find full tables who haven't played the old lore-heavy scenarios that some of the players want. Replay without credit for numbers is cool, but the problem happens if someone comes in planning to replay to make numbers then another person shows up and they're left with nothing to do & that leaves a bad taste and makes people not want to.

GM replays are one thing, and I use mine to try & fix things in the local group, but a lot of people only have 1 star or less so they don't add up to much. So I doubt Option 3 would help much.

Option 2 is the best of those presented. I'd also recommend expanding the no-credit replay so it's an option regardless of table size - the idea simply being "Everyone gets a game!".

Having said that, my view currently is that if 2E takes off & replaces 1E locally then I'll just run non-PFS games with the lore-heavy scenarios from 1E that the local playerbase wants to do. If replays allow for it they'll be official, if not we'll just have a home-game using remarkably PFS-like characters & not report/credit anything afterwards :)

I prefer a solution that lets people do a limited number of replays, but "only" gives a "dummy" chronicle sheets with appropriate Gold (maybe not even any PP) so the farming won't be an issue.

If that is not on the table, opening up reward free replay (like it is currently allowed to make a table legal) would allow small lodges to make sure that tables of some scenarios can be run. It potentially costs players a lot of money to make it possible for others to enjoy a scenario - but that option really does not seem prone to abuse.

Let me just add one thing:

Replay is a privilege and GMs should absolutely prevent any player from replaying if they don't trust him/her to not spoil the group's experience in any way.

I really don't want to list examples, but I recently heard a couple of unpleasant complaints about players who were replaying 9-00 and were trying to force the group to do the other branching options.

EDIT: TOZ mentioned a couple of unpleasant examples, how replay can damage the campaign.

Scarab Sages ***

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

My problem with people hating on option four is as follows--

1E will effectively be a "dead" campaign. As an organized play format, it will NEVER grow, no matter replay or not. Would replay truly make GMs quite 1E? Wouldn't they likely already quit to move on to SFS and 2E?

As a collaboration, what if we keep the current replay model, then, after season 1 of 2E comes to a close, unlimited replay opens up?

Scarab Sages ***

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

And I completely disagree with the assessment that replay killed 4E. I loved 4E, but I was (am) in the minority. LFR was killed because way too many people hated 4E--not because of replay.

Also, and this is EXTREMELY significant--there were NO rewards for DMing in 4E. NONE.

OK, I've changed my mind. The complete lack of rewards for DMing in 4E was what killed OP. Also, people hated it.

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

Ginasteri wrote:
1E will effectively be a "dead" campaign. As an organized play format, it will NEVER grow, no matter replay or not. Would replay truly make GMs quite 1E? Wouldn't they likely already quit to move on to SFS and 2E?

I'm planning on continuing to run 1e as long as I have players. Actual players, not campers looking for more rewards. (Yes, they are all players too, we have to support all playstyles, etc.) But unlimited replay will cause me to quit GMing 1e.

Scarab Sages ***

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

As I've learned recently first hand, if we're that concerned about farmers, how about just not letting them sit at your table?

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

That's what limited replay allows us to do. Remove that limitation and we have to seat whoever shows up until they prove to be disruptive. I would much rather have that possibility cut off beforehand.

Scarab Sages *****

Ginasteri wrote:
As I've learned recently first hand, if we're that concerned about farmers, how about just not letting them sit at your table?

I don't want to go to a convention and get randomly seated with a table of people who are item farmers or have item farmed.

That will be highly annoying.

If you want unlimited replay, and you just want to do so locally or privately. You don't need to be official to do so. Do it and enjoy the game, but don't expect to take that character elsewhere or public.

Grand Lodge ***** Regional Venture-Coordinator, Great Lakes aka TwilightKnight

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Harold Ervin wrote:
Convention play will go extinct.

Only if (1) organizers don’t offer it and (2) players don’t sign up. I intent to continue offering 1E games at events I organize until players demonstrate they are not interested.

Grand Lodge ***** Regional Venture-Coordinator, Great Lakes aka TwilightKnight

"Harold Ervin” wrote:
Revenue

To be fair, that is exactly what organized play is. Paizo is a business and their first and foremost goal is to make money. OP is a marketing tool to expand exposure to their products and encourage, even incentify, people to buy them.

Silver Crusade ***** Venture-Captain, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

Bob Jonquet wrote:
Harold Ervin wrote:
Convention play will go extinct.
Only if (1) organizers don’t offer it and (2) players don’t sign up. I intent to continue offering 1E games at events I organize until players demonstrate they are not interested.

Same here, I just add (3) GMs don't want to offer PFS1.

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Agent, Texas—Austin aka Partizanski

I would be happy with any of 1-3

I also agree that option 4 is a deal breaker for me in terms of GMing. At some point, the campaign needs to move on, and option 4 will not let that happen.

**** Venture-Agent, Tennessee—Chattanooga aka ZenithTN

Bob Jonquet wrote:
"Harold Ervin” wrote:
Revenue
To be fair, that is exactly what organized play is. Paizo is a business and their first and foremost goal is to make money. OP is a marketing tool to expand exposure to their products and encourage, even incentify, people to buy them.

QFT.

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Agent, Rhode Island—Lincoln aka Upaynao

I like options 2 and 3, am OK with option 5 although it does not excite me at all.

While some might be OK with still being able to play anything given that they had to take time off of work, or had to drive forty minutes, or what have you, I am honestly so unenthused by the replayables I have already played that I am sighing just at the idea of sitting down for Wounded Wisp. And I love Wounded Wisp.

I think a combination of options 2 and 3 would probably be ideal, as they deal with two different types of players, as well as gives an out for people who do not have the capability to GM; they exist, and it's not solely because some people are terrible at it: some people just do not have the volume or the ability to respond well under a lot of pressure or stimuli.

And I'm not really interested in running sceanrios ad nauseum into the ground under option 4.

**

Option 3—Heightened GM Star Recharge: In this model, the Expanded Narrative opportunity continues but has some capacity for more recharging than normal. That might mean someone could instantly begin a new Expanded Narrative Chronicle sheet the moment she fills out the first one, not waiting for a new season. It might instead mean that there's a limit of one sheet per season, but the sheet grants more than one replay for each GM star. There are likely other variations on this approach.

I like option 3. It keeps replay tied to GMing, which is something that will likely be harder and harder to encourage as we approach PF2. It also expands on an already known and understood system rather than incorporating new rules. I'd like to see something simple like 1 replay for every 5 scenarios GMed.

If we do boost the recharges, I'd also add a rule that you can only replay a scenario you've GMed at least once. Should help catch some edge cases of exploitative behavior with increased replays.

**

I'd vote for 4b (by Glyn)....To start, until there is a lot more 2E scenarios, 1E will still played fairly regularly. However, over time, it will become less and less, and those people who DO want to play 1E won't be able to find anyone to play with because "I played that game 8 years ago".

Or maybe some type of hybrid?
Option 6: Each year, the lowest tier of the corresponding 1E season becomes Evergreen. For Example: Starting Aug 2019, 1E Season 0, all modules tier 1-5 become Evergreen. Starting Aug 2020, when 2E season 2 comes out, 1E Season 1, all modules tier 1-5 become Evergreen. Etc.

This would open up a few options, give some players the ability to replay some of the really old scenarios, without opening up the wild wild west.

**

What about unlimited replay, but locked behind some completion standard say once you've played/run every 1e scenario? Or (stealing a CoD term) "prestige" once you hit that threshold, starting over allowing one new play for each (basically like a new character number but you keep your star

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