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Hi,
I just wanted to make sure that I am interpreting Shifter's Fury correctly.
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Shifter’s Fury (Ex)
This ability has been added based on this FAQ entry.
At 6th level, a shifter gains the ability to make several ferocious attacks with the same natural weapon. Instead of attacking with all her natural weapons, the shifter can choose a single natural weapon and make a full attack with that natural weapon, gaining a second iterative attack at a –5 as if it was a manufactured weapon. When she does so, all her other natural attacks count as secondary attacks and don’t benefit from shifter’s claws.
At 11th level, she gains a third iterative attack at a –10 and at 16th level, she gains a fourth iterative attack at –15.
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Therefore, if I am in a Tiger form, I can get two bite attacks, and my claw attacks would be considered secondary attacks that do not receive the benefit from the shifter's claw class ability? So if I have a +10 to hit on my bit and claw attacks, my attacks with Shifter's Fury would be +10, +5, +4, +4?- 6 BAB with a 18 Str.
If that is the case, would not just making 3 +10 attacks be better? Also, it would mean I would get the benefit of the Shifter's Claw class ability.
Thank you.
wouldn't your claws be at +5s as well? Str 4 + bab 6 -5 = 5.
the math says that when your damage is just right that using shifter's fury on a tiger is more DPR than using a normal full attack sequence.
The real point of shifter's fury is for the snakes and the bulls that only get 1 attack letting them have a full attack option to help close the DPR gap with the tigers and dinos.
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wouldn't your claws be at +5s as well? Str 4 + bab 6 -5 = 5.
the math says that when your damage is just right that using shifter's fury on a tiger is more DPR than using a normal full attack sequence.
The real point of shifter's fury is for the snakes and the bulls that only get 1 attack letting them have a full attack option to help close the DPR gap with the tigers and dinos.
Yes, you are correct, it would be a +5. Thank you. And thanks for the general input. Also, by hitting sixth level, you don't get the itinerant attack that come from hitting the 6/1 BAB mark. Therefore, is not the Shifter class always only going to have three attacks? It seems a very poor DPR class if it never can increase the number attacks per round.
Thanks again.
wouldn't your claws be at +5s as well? Str 4 + bab 6 -5 = 5.
the math says that when your damage is just right that using shifter's fury on a tiger is more DPR than using a normal full attack sequence.
The real point of shifter's fury is for the snakes and the bulls that only get 1 attack letting them have a full attack option to help close the DPR gap with the tigers and dinos.
Yes, you are correct, it would be a +5. Thank you. And thanks for the general input. Also, by hitting sixth level, you don't get the itinerant attack that come from hitting the 6/1 BAB mark. Therefore, is not the Shifter class always only going to have three attacks? It seems a very poor DPR class if it never can increase the number attacks per round.
Thanks again.
Well, full bab's don't get 3 attacks until lv11. AND with all the attacks you have a full bab while theirs are all taking penalties you get more value from your attacks.
But it does seem true that it can't blow it's DPR out the window like some classes, but someone showed me a pretty basic build that was able to do okay-enough DPR.
It seems a very poor DPR class if it never can increase the number attacks per round.
How does 121 DPR on a pounce at 10th level agains an average CR10 monster sound? Dual Talent Human Shifter 8/unBarbarian 2; 14/16+2+2/12/10/15+2+2/7; Weapon Finesse, Shifter's Edge, Power Attack, Mutated Shape, Extra Rage (if desired); Lesser Fiend Totem; Deinonychus form; Haste from somewhere.
For comparison, a similar Barbarian using Greatsword; Power Attack, Raging Vitality; Superstition, Reckless Abandon, Beast Totem line; Haste does 92 DPR on a pounce (with feats to spare, though).
You don't really need many feats, and the class is pretty dead after 8th level anyway, so VMC or dipping/multiclassing is almost mandatory.
It seems a very poor DPR class if it never can increase the number attacks per round.How does 121 DPR on a pounce at 10th level agains an average CR10 monster sound? Dual Talent Human Shifter 8/unBarbarian 2; 14/16+2+2/12/10/15+2+2/7; Weapon Finesse, Shifter's Edge, Power Attack, Mutated Shape, Extra Rage (if desired); Lesser Fiend Totem; Deinonychus form; Haste from somewhere.
For comparison, a similar Barbarian using Greatsword; Power Attack, Raging Vitality; Superstition, Reckless Abandon, Beast Totem line; Haste does 92 DPR on a pounce (with feats to spare, though).
You don't really need many feats, and the class is pretty dead after 8th level anyway, so VMC or dipping/multiclassing is almost mandatory.
Well your numbers aren't tied to being a shifter but a barbarian. So yes, the SHIFTER has poor DPR and this barb build does nothing to show otherwise.
I think Shifter 8/Barbarian 2 still falls under "Shifter". It also works with VMC Barbarian, but it puts a hefty strain on your ability scores (as you'd need the human bonus feat to get all those feats at 10th level).
Hey, I'm not claiming the class was great, but it's not bad when it comes to damage. Straight Shifter does about the same DPR as the Barbarian, and of course there's 5 levels where Shifter has pounce and the Barbarian hasn't.
On a side note, it's actually 131 DPR, my spreadsheet had an error; and I forgot the +2 strength from Beast Shape. I also didn't use furious AoMF/weapon, so the numbers should probably be 146 and 97, respectively. Barb can get up to 109 by investing the unused feats into straight damage; while Shifter can increase the damage a bit by using Tiger minor aspect ans strength belt (to 162/111).
Some thoughts on Shifter's Fury:
* It turns two +6/+6 claw attacks into three attacks, with +6/+1/+1. Assuming a 75% chance to hit with +6, that's turning 1.5 hits into 1.75, in average. More natural attacks make it less attractive, but higher BAB makes it more attractive.
* One of your natural weapons might deal more damage (for example due to shifter's claws or Energized Wild Shape) or have some special effect (such as grab or trip), making more attacks with it more attractive.
* Some natural attacks are secondary anyway, so you don't lose anything.
* The penalty of secondary natural attacks can be reduced significantly by Multiattack. It's a monster feat, so your GM has to allow it - bypassing this with ranger 10 (natural combat style) is likely no option.
The damage output of the Shifter was never the problem. It was the fact that it's crappy at shapeshifting and very inflexible (opposite to the intention of the class).
Doing the math (at 10th level), a strength based tiger build with Shifter's Fury would do more DPR than the respective Shifter's Edge build, and is about on par with the deinonychus (while spending fewer feats than either).
Of course, strength based has little reason not to use VMC (you could even use both multiclassing and VMC if your GM allows it), but has worse AC, Initiative, and Reflex bonuses.