A Chaotic Good divine spellcaster got an Amulet of Euphoric Healing and used it to heal villagers after an attack. Some of them got addicted and now come to his "chapel" for healing, even purposefully injure themselves to get it. The priest requests some services and accepts minor gifts (tho refuses them from poor folk and heals them for free). Would that change his alignment to Chaotic Neutral? He still preaches justice and helps the community.
Yes. The potentially addictive effect can be suppressed, which the PC has apparently decided not to do. So it seems he's healing just for the fame and fortune it brings - be it ever so modestly. That's not CG.
It's a deliberate thing (likely) to not suppress it, which means yeah, on some level they're doing it on purpose to get people addicted. Even if the goal is to improve the community by spending the gifts and services for the good of everyone, it's still kind of evil jerk thing to do.
This sounds very much like an "Ends justify the means" type situation from the casters perspective. Which many people would call evil.
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Some things make us instinctively recoil, we deem these things as 'evil' offhand, without truly weighing the benefits and consequences of such actions. Addicting large and largely randomized swaths of the populace to drugs only you can supply is one of these things that gets a negative gut reaction. But, as reasonable and objective people, we strive not to think with our guts.
Now, this might seem to you like the beginning of an argument begun in bad faith, the deliberately provocative ramblings of a gadfly, the pretentious spiel of a self-proclaimed advocate of Asmodeus. And yeah, you'd be right. But what kind of a boring thread would this be if we all just sat around and agreed with each other?
I contend that we have not been given enough information to give informed opinions as to the morality of this clerics actions. There could be mitigating factors, such as needing a lot of money quickly to buy spell components with which to fight evil or raise good blokes from the dead. There is nothing in the Chaotic Good alignment that says you can't scam people who can afford to be scammed, as a matter of fact, it's the bread and butter of lovable rogue-type characters. And our cleric is healing the poor free of charge.
I maintain that whether addicting random people to the drugs you produce is good or evil depends on whether you are actively and intentionally malicious.
I mean, who here in this room can honestly say they've never subjected semi-random large groups of people to addictive substances for a quick buck?
He does deliberately uses the amulet.
From what i get the character thinks he can do better than the town major so he entralled people to repair the houses that was burned during the attack. CN struck me as selfish alignment and that does not sound selfish.
On the other hand, he does frolick with girls from his flock and makes people listen to his preachings, whick he would not be able to do otherwise.
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OK, let's look beyond the reflexive deontological idea that "making people addicted to something is bad," and unpack the different ways in which this is harming people.
1) Wis damage from the addiction.
2) Some "purposefully injure themselves" because they are addicted to healing. Even if healed for free, self-injury causes pain and is potentially risky if someone accidentally inflicts lethal injury on themselves (for example, jumping from a height and getting unlucky with falling damage)
3) Addiction interferes with a person's ability to make free choices about their lives. A character that is both Chaotic and Good cares about other peoples' freedom, which should include the freedom of mind in addition to freedom from physical bondage. (From the CRB, a CG character "hates it when people try to intimidate others and tell them what to do" and from Champions of Purity "Chaotic good characters want the freedom to do as they will and desire others to be free of oppression as well.")
4) Accepting gifts for healing people who are addicted to his healing feels really sketchy, but isn't harmful per se... unless he's diverting income from an existing healer or non-evil church, or if he's accepting money for healing wounds that people ordinarily wouldn't have paid to have heal (whether self-inflicted or just a trivial injury). So pretty likely that he's causing additional harm by accepting gifts, actually. Just because people aren't poor doesn't mean it's necessarily OK to take their money. Robin Hood is heroic because he's inverting an oppressive tax system; merely avoiding stealing from those who can't afford it just keeps you out of the "evil" zone.
The fact that he can suppress the amulet's effects, and that it offers no benefit to the person being healed, makes this less defensible.
Not everyone with good intentions has a Good alignment. CN characters can be selfish, or they can simply lack the conviction to make sacrifices for others that is characteristic of the good alignment. Limiting others' freedom because they think they "can do better than the town mayor" is not Chaotic Good.
Unless there's serious mitigating factors that weren't mentioned I'd strongly consider an alignment change. If the priest has a patron who would disapprove, they might also expect a divine warning - possibly a temporary loss of ability to use healing magic.
A Chaotic Good divine spellcaster got an Amulet of Euphoric Healing and used it to heal villagers after an attack. Some of them got addicted and now come to his "chapel" for healing, even purposefully injure themselves to get it. The priest requests some services and accepts minor gifts (tho refuses them from poor folk and heals them for free). Would that change his alignment to Chaotic Neutral? He still preaches justice and helps the community.It's within Good Alignment for a spellcaster charge for spellcasting services (CRB lists them valued at Caster Level x Spell Level x 10 GP, plus any material costs). If they accept gifts instead of gold, that's find too.
That said, if divine spellcaster is aware that injuries are self inflicted, a good-aligned character would feel obligated to fix the problem. Either by removing the addiction, or by providing free healing (since the need for the healing is the fault of the divine spellcaster).
Though honestly, preaching justice and helping the community sounds like Lawful Behaviour.
I'd be inclined to make them neutral good (for the community and justice and the organized religion they seem to be starting), and if they didn't fix the addiction, as described above, I'd make them true neutral (because if they don't have remorse for getting people addicted to the point where they are hurting themselves, they are not good).
None of this is evil yet, but nothing descibed is remotely chaotic good either...
Beyond that, I would recommend having a superior member of the player's religion visit their "chapel" and request/demand donations towards the greater temple of their religion. Basically, make it so the PC doesn't make any profit with their temple and that should quash the PC's desire for a crackhouse church. Especially to good deities, temples shouldn't be profitable.
See, now this is why I hate the alignment system so very, very passionately.
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Option 1: Healing without getting person addicted.
Option 2: Healing while getting person addicted.
Getting someone, or a group of people, intentionally addicted to anything is not a good act. Using it for favors/donations/ect? Come on.
Basically he's extorting the community. He should be neutral at the very least, possibly even evil at this point. His actions show the type of person he is despite what his words might be.
Change healing to cocaine. The principle is the same.
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If this person were an Npc doing the same thing, what alignment would they be?
Pushing lawful obedience and getting the citizens addicted to enforce church attendance and self harm?
Most of our murder hobos would detect that LE Cleric a mile off the Chelish border! My devil has a contract for you to sign pastor John.
(These things seem exactly opposite CG)
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if someone accidentally inflicts lethal injury on themselves (for example, jumping from a height and getting unlucky with falling damage)
Thats a good idea, maybe i should make particualarly dull peasant break their neck, or at least fall into negatives.
I probably change him to CN, "ruling" the community without holding any official position or right to do so seems pretty chaotic to me. Vampires are CE and they make thralls, having people doing your work does not really require you to be lawful (at least in my opinion), while disrespecting established hierarchy and commanding people by magical means rather than authority seems pretty chaotic.
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Yeah, I think it's only chaotic good characters that would have a broad opposition to mind control since they're the only ones that have a strong value for other peoples' freedom. (Though full on thralls definitely feel more CE than CN to me.)
I could see TN or CN depending on whether he's anti-authority in general or just anti-"authorities I disagree with."
Having someone suffer a nearly-fatal self inflicted injury sounds like a good way to give the character one last chance to realize the impact of his actions, change course, and avoid alignment change.
"Good" and "evil" are frustrating enough to argue, "law" and "chaos" are not moral positions at all. I say a case could be made for his behavior being any alignment, and while some of the cases might be flimsier than others the real deciding factor in which seems which will be the eloquence with which they are made.
This is particularly difficult to adjudicate for clerics, who can lose their class features if their aligment changes too far. This could lead to bad feelings at the table, if the player thought his actions were one alignment and you thought they were another.
My advice? Instead of trying to find out if this action or that action is "lawful" or "chaotic" or "evil" or "neutral", ask yourself a simpler, less opinion based question; would his god approve? If not, have said deity inform the cleric of such while he prepares his spells for the morning, and either he'll knock it off or find a different god.
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I think he is doing what every preacher/pastor/church does. He is poisoning and extorting the community under the guise of helping them. Just like every other religion and their affiliates, so let him keep doing it. Have somebody in the community come back from war or whatever and see the change, confront him about it. But don't punish him for being good at being a preacher, they are all scam artists, he has a good scam going.
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As Weirdo pinted out:
Euphoric Healing
Type spell Addiction minor, Fortitude DC 13
Effect 24 hours, –2 penalty against all mind-affecting spells cast by the amulet’s wearer
Damage 1 Wis damage
the addiction cause damage. So the cleric is purposefully causing damage to his faithful for personal gain. Surely not good.
As Weirdo pinted out:
the addiction cause damage. So the cleric is purposefully causing damage to his faithful for personal gain. Surely not good.Euphoric Healing
Type spell Addiction minor, Fortitude DC 13
Effect 24 hours, –2 penalty against all mind-affecting spells cast by the amulet’s wearer
Damage 1 Wis damage
You heal a point of ability damage every night you rest. They'll be fine, and it doesn't even hurt. In fact, it's euphoric.
I think he is doing what every preacher/pastor/church does. He is poisoning and extorting the community under the guise of helping them. Just like every other religion and their affiliates, so let him keep doing it. Have somebody in the community come back from war or whatever and see the change, confront him about it. But don't punish him for being good at being a preacher, they are all scam artists, he has a good scam going.
Preach the good word, sibling!
But it's a tad different when their gods actually heal people though, isn't it? He's not offering placebos or faith healing, he's casting magic spells of the healing subschool.
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You heal a point of ability damage every night you rest. They'll be fine, and it doesn't even hurt. In fact, it's euphoric.
And?
If I prick you with a needle it is a good act because it don't deal harm?If someone is dealing stat damage regularly to people, even if that stat damage is recovered by normal healing, it is still a serious form of damage.
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He does deliberately uses the amulet.
From what i get the character thinks he can do better than the town major so he entralled people to repair the houses that was burned during the attack. CN struck me as selfish alignment and that does not sound selfish.
On the other hand, he does frolick with girls from his flock and makes people listen to his preachings, whick he would not be able to do otherwise.
That sounds Lawful Neutral or Lawful Evil to me. Fittingly, both of the deities that the text associates the magic item with are Lawful Evil and their followers (especially Asmodeus') would use the item in this exact way.
That sounds Lawful Neutral or Lawful Evil to me. Fittingly, both of the deities that the text associates the magic item with are Lawful Evil and their followers (especially Asmodeus') would use the item in this exact way.
All alignments use the sword in exactly the same way.
At my table i play alignments by not "what" character is doing, but for what purpose. If fighter stabs innocent children with sword that is evil, but if he stabs necromancer who spreads the plague in the village its considered good.Their deity is not good to begin with (Calistria), so alignment change not gonna mess his spells (unless they change to lawful, and believe me this character is anything but lawful).
I am thinking of having a paladin to come to the village and bonk him on the head, but paladins have reputation of "smite makes right".
That sounds Lawful Neutral or Lawful Evil to me. Fittingly, both of the deities that the text associates the magic item with are Lawful Evil and their followers (especially Asmodeus') would use the item in this exact way.All alignments use the sword in exactly the same way.
At my table i play alignments by not "what" character is doing, but for what purpose. If fighter stabs innocent children with sword that is evil, but if he stabs necromancer who spreads the plague in the village its considered good.
Their deity is not good to begin with (Calistria), so alignment change not gonna mess his spells (unless they change to lawful, and believe me this character is anything but lawful).I am thinking of having a paladin to come to the village and bonk him on the head, but paladins have reputation of "smite makes right".
I was referring to the actions and intent of the character and noted that it is the same behaviour as a character of that alignment.
Generally, a tyrant subjugates and oppresses because they believe they are more competent and deserving of power. They believe that their way is best and that they must force others into it in order to maintain it. Sound familiar?When you say "this character is anything but lawful" do you mean lawful or Lawful? Capital L alignment term Lawful is not about following legal code.
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The cleric being a Calistrian an important detail - as a trickster goddess, Calistria's probably perfectly fine with the use of the amulet.
Using the amulet to run a scam on the town is probably CN, not CG, but being a CN Calistrian actually puts him more in line with the goddess.
Calistria's pretty mercenary about damn near everything, so getting people addicted to your magic and then charging them for it is fine in her book. Demanding they convert to Calistria, though... Well, keep in mind Calistria's also a goddess of vengeance. Once those addicts are hers, you might have someone suddenly figuring out that it's the amulet that makes the healing euphoric, not the priest....
(The more LE use of the amulet would be getting people addicted and then demanding that they convert to receive any further healing.)
Who does this guy worship?
The cleric being a Calistrian an important detail - as a trickster goddess, Calistria's probably perfectly fine with the use of the amulet.
Using the amulet to run a scam on the town is probably CN, not CG, but being a CN Calistrian actually puts him more in line with the goddess.
Calistria's pretty mercenary about damn near everything, so getting people addicted to your magic and then charging them for it is fine in her book. Demanding they convert to Calistria, though... Well, keep in mind Calistria's also a goddess of vengeance. Once those addicts are hers, you might have someone suddenly figuring out that it's the amulet that makes the healing euphoric, not the priest....
(The more LE use of the amulet would be getting people addicted and then demanding that they convert to receive any further healing.)
It's not just a scam, though. The OP says the character is trying to force the town to do his bidding because he thinks he can run the town better.
The character is supposed to be Chaotic Good, too, and scamming innocent injured townsfolk isn't really something I think of when I think CG.
Well, his teaching involve "if it feels good then its good", and "what i do is right, if not the goddess will smite me".
From the player i got that he just gonna use the villagers as workforce to repair burned buildings, because its "unfair" that some of them got their homes burned while others did not.
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I'd shift them down to CN at least, he's driving people to injure themselves, and doing good things by evil means is generally a good indication of a neutral alignment. I'm not saying take away their powers (Calistra probably doesn't care, though she also probably wouldn't care if someone got angry and vengeful at the character) but they are definitely not CG anymore.
Vampires are CE and they make thrallsWait what? When did that happen? (Double checks...) Nope, SOME vampires are Chaotic Evil. All vampires are "Evil" but can be lawful neutral or chaotic.
Also, creating some vampiric thralls and subjugating a town are very different.
I'd shift them down to CN at least, he's driving people to injure themselves, and doing good things by evil means is generally a good indication of a neutral alignment. I'm not saying take away their powers (Calistra probably doesn't care, though she also probably wouldn't care if someone got angry and vengeful at the character) but they are definitely not CG anymore.
Doing good things by evil means is like Deapool, who is cheeky and fun.
Poisoning and borderline enslaving an entire community under the guise of a healer/saint sounds much more Joker, who is much less cheeky and fun.
Deadpool is the very definition of chaotic neutral.
The Joker is much less than neutral.
Your player is definitely not CG anymore. Is he more Deadpool or is he more Joker?
I'd shift them down to CN at least, he's driving people to injure themselves, and doing good things by evil means is generally a good indication of a neutral alignment. I'm not saying take away their powers (Calistra probably doesn't care, though she also probably wouldn't care if someone got angry and vengeful at the character) but they are definitely not CG anymore.Doing good things by evil means is like Deapool, who is cheeky and fun.
Poisoning and borderline enslaving an entire community under the guise of a healer/saint sounds much more Joker, who is much less cheeky and fun.
Deadpool is the very definition of chaotic neutral.
The Joker is much less than neutral.
Your player is definitely not CG anymore. Is he more Deadpool or is he more Joker?
Deadpool is Chaotic Stupid, not Chaotic Neutral. There's a difference.
The Joker is Chaotic Evil.
If I prick you with a needle it is a good act because it don't deal harm?
If I saunter on by and prick you with a needle, is that an evil act? To be fair, it's a fairly dickish thing to do, but is it evil?
And good aligned clerics are allowed to do morally neutral things, aren't they? Though it's entertaining to imagine a setting where they are not . . . but I imagine they'd all starve to death fairly quickly, unless they can find a cause to eat for.
[sincere] I'd peg this cleric as CN or CE, if it was my own PC, judging by what I've heard of the calistrian. We don't actually disagree. But a shoddy argument cannot be allowed to stand, otherwise I won't be entertained. [/sincere] Imagine how awful that would be!
[/QUOTE=Bloodrealm]
Deadpool is Chaotic Stupid, not Chaotic Neutral. There's a difference.
The Joker is Chaotic Evil.
Intelligence is on the Z axis, Deadpool is chaotic neutral stupid.
New spells: detect stupidity (for getting out of unpleasant conversations before they even begin), detect intelligence (to separate the wheat from the lower quality wheat, as well as the chaff), stupid hammer (for breaking minds utterly, especially useful in online debates).
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If I prick you with a needle it is a good act because it don't deal harm?If I saunter on by and prick you with a needle, is that an evil act? To be fair, it's a fairly dickish thing to do, but is it evil?
And good aligned clerics are allowed to do morally neutral things, aren't they? Though it's entertaining to imagine a setting where they are not . . . but I imagine they'd all starve to death fairly quickly, unless they can find a cause to eat for.
[sincere] I'd peg this cleric as CN or CE, if it was my own PC, judging by what I've heard of the calistrian. We don't actually disagree. But a shoddy argument cannot be allowed to stand, otherwise I won't be entertained. [/sincere] Imagine how awful that would be!
[/QUOTE=Bloodrealm]
Deadpool is Chaotic Stupid, not Chaotic Neutral. There's a difference.
The Joker is Chaotic Evil.
Intelligence is on the Z axis, Deadpool is chaotic neutral stupid.
New spells: detect stupidity (for getting out of unpleasant conversations before they even begin), detect intelligence (to separate the wheat from the lower quality wheat, as well as the chaff), stupid hammer (for breaking minds utterly, especially useful in online debates).
1) You a replying to a statement I didn't made, so your "sincerity" tag is questionable. Changing my rhetoric question to something different so that it is easy to dismiss it is "insincerity". I never said that it is a evil act, but in RL doing that repeatedly will get you a restrain order or even a forced hospitalization in a mental institution.
Actually, as thing stand today, someone cold shot you and get scot free saying "I thought he was a needle used by a person with AIDS." Several muggings where done with that kind of weapon.2) In this situation the cleric is dealing wisdom damage constantly, albeit indirectly, so a better in game example would have been "Lashing people every day until they became staggered is a non evil deed because the recover at least a point of non lethal damage after an hour and, by game rules, at that point they aren't impaired in any way?"
As damage don't work in real life as it work in game, I have used a real life example where the damage disappear after a short time.
3) Callistria surely don't have a problem with this kind of behavior, so the guy clerical abilities will not be affected in any way, but his alignment will if he continues after realizing what is happening.
3) Callistria surely don't have a problem with this kind of behavior, so the guy clerical abilities will not be affected in any way, but his alignment will if he continues after realizing what is happening.
Realizing? It's intentional. He's intentionally doing this so that he can force the town to do things the way he wants them to.
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This is at minimum it’s CN. Calista won’t have a problem with this but secretly addicting the masses to a drug “for the greater good,” is not the actions of a good character. A good character would use diplomacy or even stealing from the rich to help fund the repairs. But addicting everyone to force them to repair the building is not.
Even looking at not long term harm no foul is incorrect in this instance. Even if the peasants are recovering the point of Wis damage (and we ignore that this is the equivalent of whipping someone mentally) you guys are overlooking the addition rules. While addicted they have a -2 penalty to Con if they don’t get their daily fix. And the DC to avoid addiction and recover increases by 2 each time they are drugged. After a few days most of his victims are hopelessly addicted to his magic as the save to shake off the addiction is only a 2.5% chance. (2 natural 20s in a row) until they go cold turkey for almost as long as they had been receiving the healing or someone intervenes with remove disease.
And that isn’t even touching the fact that people are hurting themselves at this point because of it and he still seems to be doing it. There is a reason the item is favored by LE clerics.
I am thinking of having a paladin to come to the village and bonk him on the head, but paladins have reputation of "smite makes right".
If he’s making the claim he’s not evil just chaotic go with a couple of Hellknights instead. This seems like something a pair from the order of the Chain for “mistreatment of slaves,” may look into and give him a wake up call. Thematically and mechanically both would make better foils since they are a pure law version of the paladin.
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Ouch, I was misreading the wisdom damage as an effect of the addiction, instead it is an effect of the disease.
So all the rules of addiction work normally, hence:
Addiction manifests in three different degrees of severity: minor, moderate, and severe. Each drug notes what type of addiction failing a save against it results in. Each addiction causes a persistent penalty to ability scores, lasting for as long as the character has the disease. In the case of moderate and severe addictions, the character also cannot naturally heal ability damage dealt by the drug that caused the addiction.Each form of addiction encourages sufferers to continue making use of the drug they are addicted to. While a character is benefiting from the effects of the drug he is addicted to, he does not suffer the penalties of his addiction disease. While he still receives the benefits of the drug and takes ability damage as normal, the disease's effects are mitigated. As soon as the drug's benefits expire, the disease's effects return.
1 point of wisdom every time they are healed, no save against that and a -2 to constitution if they miss the daily fix until they overcame the addiction.
As the amulet effect last 24 hours the -2 to constitution is applied only in the days when they are not dosed by the amulet. On the other side, they will seek to get multiple doses in a day an the damage will pile up.