If I hit an invisible foe with a claw attack and I have the grab special ability, do I roll the miss chance twice, once for the claw and once for the grab, or just once for the claw and the grab is a free rider?
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The grab is a rider to a successful claw attack. If you hit with the claw attack, you deal damage and attempt the grapple.
However... as a GM, would rule that the invisible foe would no longer have concealment to you if you successfully grapple, so all of your further actions wouldn't apply against concealment while grappling. But anyone else attacking that invisible target would still have the 50% miss chance.
Rules say that it is a separate attack so it has a separate miss chance.
But I would also house rule that since you have already connected there should be no miss chance for the grab.
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Rules say that it is a separate attack so it has a separate miss chance.
But I would also house rule that since you have already connected there should be no miss chance for the grab.
Grab (Ex) If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.
It is not a new attack, the attempt to start the grapple is immediate, you bypass the part before that, i.e. "select the target or target square, then roll for miss chance or, if applicable, to target the person and not one of his mirror image" and so on.
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Rules say that it is a separate attack so it has a separate miss chance.
But I would also house rule that since you have already connected there should be no miss chance for the grab.
Grab (Ex) If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.It is not a new attack, the attempt to start the grapple is immediate, you bypass the part before that, i.e. "select the target or target square, then roll for miss chance or, if applicable, to target the person and not one of his mirror image" and so on.
How is the grapple check not a new attack? It is a discrete action, free action in this case. It is a discrete d20 roll. It does not automatically gain all of the modifiers of the initial attack roll like confirming a critical does.
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I don't see a clear answer either way. Personally, I'd go with no second miss chance on 2 factors. 1: It is part of the claw attack, you successfully hit him, and now you are using your claws to drag him in to the grapple, able to ignore the concealment for the time being because you already have a hold of him. 2: Free actions, while a separate action, consume a minimal amount of time, so can be viewed as being part of the first action
Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.
“It is part of the claw attack.” I’m not seeing where the rules on grab say it is “part of the attack”, just that if you hit you can attempt a grapple as a free action. It’s a rider effect. It is a free action granted to you by a universal monster rule.
And free actions, while a separate action, are a separate action and CANNOT be viewed as being “part of the first action.” Otherwise you are contradicting yourself. Yes, free actions can happen during other actions but that doesn’t lead to them being other actions.
A reasonable house rule to only roll once for concealment.
Once grappled 'If a grappled creature becomes invisible, through a spell or other ability, it gains a +2 circumstance bonus on its CMD to avoid being grappled, but receives no other benefit.' Until then - RAW I think the miss chance would still apply. I would be open to changing it as a GM though.