| 14 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm writing this guide to aid those of you coming in late to the foundation of what promises to be a monumental series of discussions.
You'll find much argument, based mainly on speculation (and 4E/5Efears), and that can make it hard to sift through. I'm going to assume you are familiar with Pathfinder 1st ed. (PF1) and only a newbie to PF2.
The PF wiki thread to ENWorld is the best for catching up on the discussion, as they collect the designers' posts re: content.
Here is the data I've gleaned so far about PF2 from several thousand posts:
-PF2 uses the same d20 & class-based chassis, starting with the CRB classes plus the Alchemist.
-There's a ">10<" tweak which makes a crucial difference across the board re: success vs. failure. The >10< tweak means if you succeed by 10 extra (>10) you get extra bonuses and if you fail by 10 less than DC or more (10<) there may be penalties.
-One >10< example is combat where you auto-crit for double damage if you roll >10 over vs. AC and critically fumble if you roll 10 fewer vs. AC. The most common misinterpretation of critically fumbling with a weapon is thinking there's a fumble chart or other chaotic mechanism. There isn't. At most it leaves you vulnerable to a reaction by your enemy, a riposte being the only known example, and only via a PC class for now.
-The four base aspects of PCs are:
PC's Stats: Examples so far make stats look much beefier plus there are broad stat boosts every 5th level (+2 to four stats). Charisma is now important for non-face PCs (see Magic). 18 appears to be a starting cap (and common), and even penalized races might be able to get that high. Speculation: Some of the beefiness comes from class & ancestry boosts.
PC's Level: Feats as you level. BAB & skills increase across the board. (More later on this later & how >10< impacts it.)
PC's Class: Classes are framed to gain class feats every 2nd level, as well as class features, much like a Barbarian gains Rage Powers and a Rogue gains Talents. Yes, there are archetypes, but the class feat system might cover some of that.
(It's uncertain whether Saves are tied mainly to class alone or to the PCs total level plus Proficiency bonuses.)
PC's Ancestry: Ancestry is the new term covering race/species as well as ethnicity, etc. Ancestry takes a large role in PF2 because there aren't just initial mechanics, but ancestry feats which unlock greater abilities later. Goblins have been added to the CRB races.
-Advancement: PCs level every 1,000 XP, so assumably rewards will be based on comparing the CR of the enemy vs. PC levels instead of flat.
Feats, Proficiencies, & Skills: These all intertwine to make your base character grow. There's less linearity and more breadth here than in PF1.
-Feats: As PF1, but PCs get tons more and in different flavors. A single class PC will gain feats every level.
-General Feats: Gained by PC level. I think they can be used to choose any kind of feat.
-Class Feats: Gained by level in a class (right?). The catch-all phrase for all those class options.
-Skill Feats: Gained by PC level. Feats geared to skill proficiencies or special uses of skills.
-Ancestry Feats: Gained by PC level. Feats available based on your ancestry.
-Proficiencies: A much expanded mechanic from PF1, both in depth and breadth. The ranks are Untrained (-2), Trained (+0), Expert (+1), Master (+2), & Legend (+3). As well as the bonus given, they work much like skill unlocks, but also with weapons, armor, magic, saves, etc. These & stats seem to make the most difference between PCs of equal level for all general (non-class specific) mechanics.
-Skills: Like BAB, your PC level adds to all your skills, so there's a general competence tied to leveling. BUT the PC's proficiencies are intrinsically tied to what's doable. It's complicated and the subject of contentious debate despite (or maybe because of) the lack of data.
At minimum: level + stat + proficiency + item + circumstances will all play together in this. Remember though, with the >10< tweak, it's not just pass/fail, but Wow/pass/fail/Uh-oh. Olympic levels are achievable at Expert proficiency, maybe even Trained.
Note: Perception is not a skill, but a freebie based on level, though there are ways to boost it.
Mundane & Magic Items:
-PCs are no longer expected to hunt down all the must-have incremental bonuses to stats, saves, AC, attack, & damage. Those are all tied into the PC's mechanics now.
-There are five levels of items, akin to the levels of proficiency, from crude to awesome (not actual names).
-A magic weapon does +weapon damage per plus. Yes, like getting a Vital Strike bonus, but with every hit.
-There are many labels on weapons now which have yet to be explained, i.e. agile gives you fewer penalties to your secondary and tertiary attacks.
-Shields give +2 AC. They can also be used to block, as DR.
-Gold seems to be the new platinum, with 15 g.p. being enough to equip a 1st level martial PC with solid equipment.
RESONANCE: PCs have a new stat called Resonance which is based off Charisma + Level. Arguments exist as to whether Paizo meant Cha bonus. Paizo has stated it's hard for a 1st level PC to run out of Resonance, so maybe total Cha. Resonance determines how many magic item uses your PC gets per day.
Example: PC wakes up in morning, spends Resonance to attune to her armor, weapon, and other permanent items for the day. Whatever Resonance is left can be used to activate special abilities on those items, i.e. a ray blast from her sword, even though swinging doesn't cost any uses (after atttuning). Resonance also gets spent when she activates wands, potions, etc. This means no spamming CLW wands, but in testplay low Resonance doesn't seem an issue. But it does mean you're at risk if you do run dry. If so, there's a flat roll (10+ on d20) to use a magic item which gets harder by +1 with each attempt. Any failure by >10 means that PC is cut off from using more magic for the day (though would remain attuned to items from before). Yes, a potion could be wasted.
Combat: A phase that begins with initiative which in turn can be based on several choices, i.e. if you're sneaking then you'd roll Stealth. The default is Perception, but other options exist too.
-It's a three-action, one-reaction per round system.
-All action slots are equal, so you could attack three times per round. The second attack is at -5, the third at -10, and against minions you can expect that last one to hit often enough to be worth it. Some weapon abilities improve these extra attacks.
-While having your shield out for AC is just equip it and you're good, you could also use an action to have it ready to block with your reaction. This gives you DR of the shield's hardness vs. an attack.
-Valeros, the iconic fighter, was able to equip his shield as a reaction, but we don't know of many other reactions other than block. The fighter is thought to get an opportunity attack. Also, as a reaction, the Paladin can attack those who crit her allies. There's a riposte too for when an opponent critically fumbles, likely for Rogues.
-There is no free 5' step, but you can use an action to take one.
-Flanking is a condition you give your foe, which means non-flanking allies get the flank bonus too.
-Knowledge checks appear to be an action.
-Fighters can learn a charge action (move twice & attack) that uses only two actions.
-Movement is less, I believe 25' for a medium PC.
-Animal Companions & Summoned Monster appear to get only two actions per round. It might even cost a PC action to maintain a Summon spell.
Spells:
-Spells take different amounts of actions. Example, Shield is reusable now and you can put it up with 1 action (and block with it too!).
-Many of the spells take an action per component, ex. one action for verbal, one for somatic. This seems to keep the offense to one per round, but I vaguely recall an example of Jason unleashing a Cone of Cold & Chain Lightning in the same round at high level. (On his allies!)
-There are no 0-level spells. They're numbered 1st-10th now.
-Also, some spells have variable casting times, i.e. Magic Missile gives you one missile per action spent, so you could throw three missiles.
-Spell DCs are based on caster level & stat, not spell level, much like supernatural abilities were in PF1.
-Spells seem to be static, not scaling with PC level. But it appears one can overcast spells, i.e. if you cast Magic Missile at a higher level, you get more missiles per action spent. Rumor is 2x per 2 levels higher.
-Proficiencies will play a yet unknown role with spellcasting, likely to increase DCs & Spell Penetration, but since proficiencies (seem to) do more than add static numbers, who knows...
-There will be scaling degrees of success based on the >10< tweak. So a critical success might lead to zero effect, a regular save to 1/2 damage, a regular fail to full damage, and a critical failure to double damage. Save-or-die and similar spells might only fully work on those that critically fail and have a different result at each level.
-There's a heal ability, seemingly a 1st level Cleric spell, which with a 3-action casting can hit the whole party for "caster's stat=h.p. cured".
d20 system + >10< = ???
Coming from a straight do-or-die/hit-or-miss of PF1, it can be hard to intuitively grasp the enormous difference the >10< mechanic makes mathematically. This has led to much misunderstanding and fighting in the comments.
Either Mark or Jason gave an example of a +3 difference, which might be the attack difference between a Fighter and a Wizard based on proficiencies alone (because their BAB is equal, gasp!). Mind you, stats, equipment, & positioning would usually increase this difference. But just a +3, with middlin' target rolls on the d20, turns out to be a 50% increase in damage for the Fighter. That's with the first swing, much less the others. (This difference would be lower vs. an enemy immune to crits, if they exist.)
Another commenter had an example of climbing a cliff to escape deadly pursuit. Assuming a critical success doubles one's speed and a critical failure means you fall, a +5 difference between decent non-combat climbers made a hell of a difference when they had to roll. One would likely die and the other would almost certainly survive (assuming pursuit ends at the top!)
So when you see what would be small differences in PF1, remember that PF2 has both the >10< mechanic and proficiency unlocks hiding behind those numbers. Even people with even numbers might have great differences in what they can do with that ability.
Another side effect of the >10< system is that CR differences matter more. You can expect to critically succeed on your attacks quite often vs. a substandard AC or have a minion critically fail vs. your spells and be wiped from the board.
(Apologies on the wall of text. The format button wasn't opening for me!)
Cheers.
This is a wonderful summary. I commend your good work!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Agreed, great summary, I found it more informative than ENWorld thread when I looked at that.
I had missed the change re: gold value completely, sounds spot on to me (and allows more wealth carry without weight concerns/ gems etc)
It also inspired some questions/interest for me re: Ancestry that I will pursue in other thread.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Thanks, you two. Did some more reading, remembered some more data so here it is...
MORE DATA:
-Hit points are max per die (so really there's no die) and you get more hit points from your ancestry, i.e. 8 for being human, and Con bonus still. 1st level Paladin had 19 h.p.
-Conditions are scaled, so different degrees might share the same name, but have different numbers. I believe the example was nauseated 1, so a -1 to relevant rolls. Vomiting to lower that condition seemed a thing so I expect Trog tunnels to be...colorful.
-Death too, is a condition. At Death 4, you die. If you hit zero h.p. (there are no negative h.p.) you're at Death 1, unless via crit, then you start at Death 2. There are rolls to recover. Healing stabilizes you, but you still need to roll to recover consciousness.
-The Slow spell lowers your action units, might scale to failure.
-Criticals multiply sneak attack damage, so doubtless sneak attack damage is determined differently in PF2. Speculation: Since magic weapons scale so strongly with weapon size, maybe smaller weapons are used with SA to offset?
-Ability damage is technically gone, but the effects remain, i.e. if a Shadow hits you, you are enfeebled. Unknown whether this stacks or eventually kills.
-Poison damage seems to work similarly, and does progress toward horrible things then death. Disease too, so maybe curses, etc.
-An example poison, where they'd set the DC too high for the high level PCs, ran its full course through a PC Dwarf who dwarfed it out, so expect some cool anti-poison ancestry feats for them.
-There are no opposed rolls nor a Take 10 mechanic. The doer rolls against the target's skill (or whatnot) + 10 as a DC. Less fluky that way. And though there aren't Take 10 mechanics, there are auto-succeed mechanics one can take before even being an expert. The DCs you can auto-succeed on are based on proficiency level, not total skill bonus.
-Expert Proficiency (if I recall) in Reflex Saves is like Evasion, turning successes into critical successes. This should be doable by 7th, though I'll guess Monks & Rogues can get this earlier.
-Falling: Looks like accidentally falling does 1 h.p./foot fallen (so you could twist an ankle on a curb!). Not sure what the max damage/terminal velocity level is or if there are acrobatics/athletics/saves involved.
-Combat Maneuvers are tied to Athletics (maybe Acrobatics for some?). Not sure what the defense is based on.
-Flatfooted is a condition with a set penalty, so no FF AC anymore, but there is still Touch AC. Touch AC may improve with level?
Monsters:
-DR works a bit differently now. An example skeleton had something similar to "Resist Weapon Damage 5" w/ a vulnerability to bludgeoning that multiplied damage. So a tiny bludgeoning hit would do nothing, but a solid one would shatter them. I don't know how this will work with dragons/gargoyles/etc., as I seriously doubt they'll get magic weapons multiplied against them.
-The skeleton also resisted fire 5, if I recall. Likely this is an "undead feel no pain" thing. Maybe it's vulnerable to good/holy damage?
-The skeleton wielded a weapon for its primary attack. Since claws are agile (so get less of a penalty as secondary & tertiary attacks) it used a claw for a second attack. Not sure how this plays out for creatures known for many primary attacks or pounce for that matter.
Until next update, Cheers!
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Next update:
With all the Paizo blogs going out about the classes & PF2 system, it can be hard to keep up. There is some info in them, so are worth catching up on if you have free time, but they're more colorful than mechanical. "PCs can do some cool things." There's not so much to glean from the 1000+ comments that's worth it; they're still full of worries & misconceptions. I'll note what I've scavenged.
More notes:
"Falling does 1 h.p./1 ft." was a GM's error. The actual system is unknown, but a designer hinted that falls hurt more. The designer seemed to dislike extremely deep pits.
Speculation: This is to make up for low level PCs having more h.p., also I think they might just move to 5' increments.
There will be extensive non-class-based healing, most likely from the skill system boosted by feats. It takes investment, but doesn't keep a PC from doing their main role for their class. The funniest takeaway was that any player whining about the party needing a healer can very well be that healer no matter their other role.
Diplomacy & Intimidate were given as examples for combat initiative in social venues. Also, combatants are not flat-footed at the beginning of combat unless somebody makes them so which a Rogue has the ability to do right off the bat.
Grabbed this from a weapons thread:
Agile property means 0/-4/-8 for attacks.
Versatile: Can switch weapon type to one not listed
Finesse: Dex to hit instead of Str if wish
Sweep: +1 to hit a second person in an additional attack (stacks)
Forceful: +1 damage if same person in an additional attack (stacks)
Deadly: +1d10 dam on a Crit
(I believe I've seen a crit bonus smaller than that too (d8), so maybe Deadly varies by weapon.)
Jacobs wants the APs to go to 20th. Return of the Runelords (PF1) will do so.
Still haven't found an official statement on what the four spell lists will be (though note that Alchemists do not have one). It's universally thought that arcane, clerical, & druidic lists will exist because how could they not. Bardic is commonly assumed to be the fourth, though some think it'll be psychic (despite there not being a psychic class yet!). If Bards had an ability to dabble across many lists, then that could open up the fourth to other flavors, like "Elemental", "Shamanistic", or what have you, which then could be used for archetypes. (Yes, that's going out on a limb there.)
Anyway, PF2 has gotten me pretty excited (though I'll heavily mourn the slow fading of PF1). Cheers.
Dotting so that I can see updates when this gets updates.
THANK YOU Castiliano for putting this all in one place!
Best thread of the playtest forum right here.
Dotting :)
Very nice, thanks
FWIW - I'm good with everything I've seen so far except Resonance. That seems to be a answer in search of a question.
answer in search of question? is that like fixing something that doesn't need fixed?
If so I am tentative about it but I can see the problem their trying to fix and one way or another I've seen it be complained about quite a bit.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
answer in search of question? is that like fixing something that doesn't need fixed?
Yep
If so I am tentative about it but I can see the problem their trying to fix and one way or another I've seen it be complained about quite a bit.
The Wand of Cure Light Wounds issue? Personally, I've not seen complaints about them. Their use can be a bit gamey, but games by their nature will always have gamey bits.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Maybe let's take the Resonance discussion to another thread?
Also, for those looking for compiled info about PF2 this Google Doc is a great reference.
You right I deleted the one that I could.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Goblin Wars! (This post is all about this, so skip if disinterested.)
While I'd planned on focusing on mechanics in this thread, since there's a deluge of goblin threads I thought I'd give a summary of the arguments, and save you from reading the thousands (!) of posts.
Pro-Goblin:
Person loves Goblins, welcomes them to Core.
Person loves new toys, looks forward to having Goblins PCs.
Middle Ground:
No worries, I'll just ban goblin PCs.
Both Sides:
What does the Nature vs. Nurture debate tell us?
Anti-Goblin:
Person loves goblins, sees Core Goblins as watering down Goblins by making them party-friendly PCs, whether or not Goblins as a whole change.
Person believes Core is no place for monsters which Goblins are.
PFS GM worries Goblin PCs offer an excuse for disruptive play styles.
GM sees Core as no place for esoteric options like Goblin.
Player believes other races deserve to be in Core as much or more than Goblins, including Hobgoblins.
Responses:
Paizo's mascots (sorry, Golem) are Goblins, so that's why they're getting the nod for being the newest Core race. Jason B. has stated that the misfit Goblins we know & love will remain with us and there will be no magical event occurring which will change that and that his decision to lobby for Goblins was driven by their appeal, not profit. He's also implied that reasons (which he can't divulge) for inclusion of Goblins will play out in Golarion which strongly suggests the Return of the Runelords AP will feature Goblins on Team Anti-Evil-Tyrants.
Golarion canon has consistently painted Goblins as evil with only slight notations about the existence of less evil tribes and other exceptions. Whether this evil imbalance is due to nature (physiology) or nurture (culture) hasn't AFAIK been codified. Since we're dealing with fantasy creatures with manufactured, plot-driven essences/physiologies, nature/nurture arguments are silly at best (and have no real world correlation to racism).
Disruptive players gonna disrupt. If not via Goblin, then via some other impish PC. Same rules of game civility apply, and I believe Paizo mentioned putting a disclaimer in the Goblin section to address this behavior.
Bonus:
I'm reminded of the joke about how the Drow in the Forgotten Realms went extinct after their race had all become "unique" male CG loners wandering the world on their paths to redemption.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Quick reviews:
-The Goblin issue is in abeyance for now. With all the popularity (despite the comparable notoriety) expect to see Goblins make the final cut.
-To clarify crits/fails because I see so much disinformation in the comments:
Assume the target roll (i.e. DC or AC) is X (after all bonuses are added).
Rolling X+10 or more, or rolling X (w/ a nat 20) = critical success.
Rolling X, or rolling <X (w/ a nat 20) = success.
Rolling <X, or rolling X or more (w/ a nat 1) = failure.
Rolling X-10 (or less), or rolling >X (w/ a nat 1) = critical failure.
Critical failures are often just failures, not old school fumbles.
-Save or die/suck/lose spells will have their effects spread out among the four results; critical save success = no effect, success = lesser effect, failure = bad effect, critical failure = die/suck/lose. Being less all-or-nothing, we'll likely see them more often! Keep Hero Points ready to reroll those nat 1s.
-Though there won't be Take 10s or 20s, unlocking skill levels will make many lower-level checks auto-success, so fewer nat 1 fails for heroes doing their shtick. Skill levels keep other checks forbidden to lesser talents, so no nat 20 successes for anyone doing "impossible" things, i.e. (maybe) only Legendary swimmers can attempt to swim up waterfalls.
NEW STUFF:
This update brings us through the Dwarf/Elf, Fighter, Rogue, & Alchemist blogs of which all but the last said little due to being a mix of fluff with mechanics sans context. Hence the update lag.
Example: We learned that most Ancestries can expect to get a +2/+2/-2 in their stats (like in PFI), but there's another +2 based on Heritage (i.e. Goblins can have some Hobgoblin blood for a +2 Con). This +2, so far, can't stack with another +2, but could cover the -2 "flaw" (Dev's wording). Some people mistakenly have been phrasing this optional +2 as one which could be placed anywhere, but the Goblin example tied it to specific stats with specific Heritages. We don't know if these Heritages are important keys to unlock other abilities.
Speaking of Ancestries, some Ancestry feats (those more physiological in nature) will only be available at 1st, while the more cultural ones can be taken later. There's a worry that standard PF1 race abilities might be spread out through the levels, but we don't know either way.
Since we don't know how character creation works, are those bonuses good or bad?
We don't know that either. (Yes, the blogs are thin...)
We do know some stats of Kyra: 18, 14, 14, 12, ??, ??. As a Human, she likely gets two floating +2 stats so this would be a 19 pt. buy to start. Or does she have two 8's for a 15 pt. buy? There was a hint awhile back of getting a stat bump for class too, so is she only 14 pt. buy for the four stats we know of? Or is it a flat point-buy system like SF? Devs mentioned stats would be beefier in PF2, so what will the opponents & APs be built toward?
There's a similar problem with the Rogue & Fighter entries, which give us some cool feats and some blah feats...by PF1 standards. The main cool things are that several test players have expressed lots of satisfaction with Fighters (even at very high levels) and in this expanded skill system, Rogues getting a skill feat every level will unlock lots of tricks (plus it appears they get Dex to damage right away). And if I didn't mention before, a math simulation was run between a sword & board Fighter vs. a THW Fighter and the shields make such a difference in PF2 that the sword & board Fighters win 60% of the time. Though lacking many of the factors we'd see in play, it's nice to see some balance there.
Developers: Fighters will be the masters of weapons & shields.
Speculation:
Paladins will be the masters of armor & divine boosts.
Barbarians will be the masters of body & battle mindset (like PF1 Rage Powers).
Rangers will be the masters of terrain & finding/exploiting weaknesses (or is that too Roguish), maybe masters of teamwork?
Alchemists Blog:
-Alchemists will be able to make free alchemical items every day from their Formula Book. This opens up different damage types immediately, i.e. liquid ice.
-Other classes can gain Formula Books via skill feats.
-Alchemical items are getting a huge expansion, to a minimum of 46 (20th level Formula Book minimum) items scaled through higher levels, including an Elixir of Life which raises dead.
-Elixirs are now alchemical items.
-Potions are not alchemical, neither will they be "spells in a can". (What then?)
-An Alchemist can use their free items for free, but others have to use Resonance. A dev hinted that even Mutagens can be shared, which might be why they don't come until 5th level.
-There's some mixup that Alchemists have to use Resonance to make items, but I believe that's only when they make/use them on the fly.
-Alchemist feats will boost these items, as will normal class progression, i.e. an alchemist's fire will scale like a bomb, albeit slower. If bombs remain touch attacks though, expect criticals to play a major role. Also, this implies Alchemists can boost all alchemist's fire, not just the ones they make. So they could have quite an arsenal on hand.
-Alchemists use Int for Resonance (which makes a dip tempting for my Dwarves!)
-A playtest Alchemist was able to be quite a martial beast in melee, even before Mutagen came online.
Bonus tidbit:
A Dev hinted that the Oracle will be present in some form. It's unknown if this will be a Cha-based Cleric, a divine-spells Sorcerer, some sort of archetype which blends the two, or what? And what about curses?
|
Some people mistakenly have been phrasing this optional +2 as one which could be placed anywhere, but the Goblin example tied it to specific stats with specific Heritages.
This is not true. Those people who say it's to any stat you don't already get a +2 to are correct. The Goblin example justifications are just that: example justifications, not requirements of any sort. For evidence, some quotes from the Elf/Dwarf Blog:
As a dwarf, you get three ability boosts: one to Constitution, one to Wisdom, and one to the score of your choice.
And in regards to Elves:
Their third ability boost can represent the other score they developed over the years.
So, in short, while there may technically be a need to justify the third bonus with something in your ancestry, it's a pure flavor consideration, not any kind of meaningful limitation.
And Heritage with a capital H has a specific meaning, and was not used in the Goblin Blog at all.
Fair enough.
{. . .}
Also, for those looking for compiled info about PF2 this Google Doc is a great reference.
This document and the original post say that 0th level spells are no longer a thing, but the same document and at least one of the blog posts and/or a developer post shortly after it say that Cantrips are still a thing. Which is it?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
{. . .}
Also, for those looking for compiled info about PF2 this Google Doc is a great reference.This document and the original post say that 0th level spells are no longer a thing, but the same document and at least one of the blog posts and/or a developer post shortly after it say that Cantrips are still a thing. Which is it?
Cantrips exist but are no longer considered 0th level spells.
|
Cantrips exist but are no longer considered 0th level spells.{. . .}
Also, for those looking for compiled info about PF2 this Google Doc is a great reference.This document and the original post say that 0th level spells are no longer a thing, but the same document and at least one of the blog posts and/or a developer post shortly after it say that Cantrips are still a thing. Which is it?
Probably to make it sure they can't be up-slotted. It was a weird thing in PF1 that was hard to answer.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Bumping for a friend to find, but will toss in some new data too.
General:
You can follow Mark S. or Logan's posts to capture the many tidbits & clarifications they present. That's where a majority of my info comes from (even moreso than the blogs which accentuate flavor).
DeadmanWalking knows more than any non-Paizo/non-playtesting person. Period. And he cites! And he's highly active on the boards if you want to toss out questions. (Sorry DMW if this overloads you!)
ANATHEMA: RPing actions/inactions your PC can't do without losing whatever powers are tied to the anathema. Some commentators are painting these as codes or oaths (which they can be), but for the more chaotic minded they can represent how in sync you are with whatever it is that gives you powers whether or not that something is inside or outside the PC. The base example is Clerics being tied to gods, but Barbarians can choose totems which also come with anathema (except the Fury totem).
SPELLS: So Cantrips increase to match your highest caster level. This means casters will always have something useful to do, even if their slotted spells & class spells are better. This boost to Cantrips means more in PF2 because casters get fewer slots, a lot fewer, and with no stat bonus to them either.
BUT that's only the standard spells we know. Class feats, schools, bloodlines, domains, etc. open up lots of other spell options too, so a PC's theme has a larger impact on casters' options.
Spell DC increases every level, as do saves. So a difference in levels means more than in PF1.
Also, with the >10< mechanic, there's a greater range of effects, with many of the more severe PF1 effects only occurring on a critical failure, but that's somewhat balanced by lots of successful saves still having negative effects (with a critical success being needed to avoid everything).
CONDITIONS: Yay, the conditions are numbered for ease of telling the numerical impact on characters. They resemble PF1, but there's more granularity, i.e. being frightened & fleeing are separated (though a spell might do both). Several conditions fade by round so characters can rebound. (The conditions blog has good info for more.)
SKILLS: Lots here, so the blog is worthwhile, but to clear up a common misconception, Int only grants more skills at 1st (and possibly if Int gets increased later.) There's a default progression for all classes (though Rogue, and maybe Bard/Ranger get more via class as well).
MONSTERS: It appears Paizo has taken much time to add extra flavor to every monster out there. Even vanilla ones like animals are getting some love, i.e. some of them cats now have sneak attack!
Classes:
ALCHEMIST: See above
BARBARIAN: Very much like Unchained Barbs, but I'll note two things: anathema & rage rounds. At 1st Barbs choose a totem, Fury being the vanilla one w/ no anathema. Many of PF1's better totems now have anathema tied to them, but they do unlock that better stuff. Your call.
Unknown if you can unlock more totems, but the totem chains seem similar to the ones in PF1.
Rage rounds are now unlimited, but come as 3 on, 1 off. So after raging three rounds, the Barb is fatigued for 1, then can restart their rage the next round (w/ a new set of temp h.p.!)
BARD: The biggest mystery... With bonuses so restricted in PF2, Bards will likely have to maintain their buffing songs every round. A test player noted his strength Bard, after tossing up some party buffs, was able to wade in and fare as well in melee as the martials.
CLERIC: As mentioned above, fewer slotted spells, but more spells tied to their domain(s). One domain to start, but feats can pick up more.
And they have anathema. Also, there's no general rule now for what alignments go with what gods or healing/inflicting.
For example, a LN god doesn't need to accept LE followers, and evil Lamashtu (IIRC) grants healing to go with her mothering aspect.
DRUIDS: Pets will require an action to command, and "minion" is a trait pets will have which limits them to 2 actions/round. Druids choose a facet of nature to focus on (i.e. animals or weather) which strengthens the feat options they take which match their facet.
FIGHTER: Master of weapons & shields. No major changes from PF1 except to match the new system, but lots of versatility & fun noted by playtesters. There will be different stances that mesh better with different weapon choices or encounters.
MONK: Promises of lots of styles and dynamic actions w/ best mobility & saves. There will be magic that amplifies their fists like a magic weapon (adding dice) and the prices of bracers of armor will be tied to levels of Mage Armor (so far cheaper than in PF1!)
Wisdom is mainly for powering optional ki abilities.
There's a misconception they'll have sub-par ACs, but Mark says that isn't the case even for Str Monks except maybe at 1st/2nd. (I'm guessing until they buy the bracers/get a mage to lend a spell.)
PALADIN: Masters of armor, they have anathema, no slotted spells, but have class spells (workin off of Cha). Still LG for playtest...but perhaps more in core. Divine Grace will be a reaction, so 1/round (maybe option later for more?)
RANGER: Mystery. Not sure how it'll stand out from the other martials other than via skills. Odds are they will have no slotted spells (like the Paladin), but spell options, likely with mundane options like traps/skills/pet boosts alongside.
ROGUE: With the new skill unlocks and greater ease of getting in Sneak Attacks, Rogues may have gained the most. Their AC feels a bit iffy, but they have combat options to alleviate that.
SORCERER: Mostly a mystery. Their bloodlines grant non-slotted spells (remember this is the generic catch-all for lots of stuff now) as well as slotted spells which progress in level as the character does (so you don't need to take a new spells known slot to keep them up to snuff).
WIZARD: Pretty much what one would expect in the new system. Fewer spell slots, but more spells via class and school. Familiars are being overhauled to be more flexible, but I believe like with Druid's companions, they're "minions" which limits their actions.
Hope that helps some of y'all!
Cheers
PC's Stats: Examples so far make stats look much beefier plus there are broad stat boosts every 5th level (+2 to four stats). Charisma is now important for non-face PCs (see Magic). 18 appears to be a starting cap (and common), and even penalized races might be able to get that high. Speculation: Some of the beefiness comes from class & ancestry boosts.
I do not believe races with a stat penalty can get a penalized stat to 18 at level 1. Characters can get there at later levels though.
|
|
DeadmanWalking knows more than any non-Paizo/non-playtesting person. Period. And he cites! And he's highly active on the boards if you want to toss out questions. (Sorry DMW if this overloads you!)
Aw, thanks man. And if I'm too busy to answer questions in detail (which I probably will be the next couple of days), well, I'll wait until I'm less busy and/or give a quick version (warning: quick answers are unlikely to cite sources).
I do not believe races with a stat penalty can get a penalized stat to 18 at level 1. Characters can get there at later levels though.
This appears to be correct. They max out at 16 in such stats at 1st level (and all maxes are two lower for stats your Class can't boost, so 16 max, 14 on Ancestry Penalty stats).
DeadmanWalking knows more than any non-Paizo/non-playtesting person. Period. And he cites! And he's highly active on the boards if you want to toss out questions. (Sorry DMW if this overloads you!)Aw, thanks man. And if I'm too busy to answer questions in detail (which I probably will be the next couple of days), well, I'll wait until I'm less busy and/or give a quick version (warning: quick answers are unlikely to cite sources).
I do not believe races with a stat penalty can get a penalized stat to 18 at level 1. Characters can get there at later levels though.This appears to be correct. They max out at 16 in such stats at 1st level (and all maxes are two lower for stats your Class can't boost, so 16 max, 14 on Ancestry Penalty stats).
Perhaps I should have updated that part. It was based on a dev comment that Goblins could have an 18 Str back when I thought they had a Str penalty.
There are likely other parts which have dated poorly, though I did skim and didn't note any worth mentioning.There are 4 phases of boosts w/ a max of +2 each, so even though a boost can be used to offset the -2 racial penalty, the net is still 3, or +6 to bring it to 16.
-Ancestry: We know many PC races get +2 in one fixed physical stat, +2 in one fixed mental stat, +2 in another stat of your choice, and -2 in a fixed stat (which that floating +2 can cancel out).
It's believed humans (so likely Half-Elves & Half-Orcs too) will get two +2s of their choice in different stats and no penalty. An ancestry penalty appears to be the only way to dump a stat.
-Backgrounds: Boost one stat +2 (often out of a choice of two) and get +2 to another one of your choice.
-Class: +2 to one stat (sometimes out of a choice of two)
-Destiny: (Not yet a game term, but it makes for ABCD) Get +2 to four different stats of your choice because you're a hero!
Speculation: I think that NPC types may not get that last boost, but it does thrown off some of the math of levels matching CR.
Here's how it looks
A: +2, +2, +2, -2 OR +2, +2
B: +2, +2
C: +2
D: +2, +2, +2, +2
C only boosting one stat limits PCs to one 18.
You can only get three 16s (and no 18s) by taking a penalty during A.
18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8 is the most lopsided possible, and it's quite easy to make flat stats.
A few weeks after the Halfling blog, it was strongly hinted that Halflings will get a +2 Wis instead of Cha, being as Gnomes & Goblins are +2 Cha too.
Another thing that's been confirmed about stats is that when you raise four of them at 5th/10th/etc. they increase by +2 if under 18 and by +1 if 18 or higher (before adding). So yes, like Starfinder if you play that. This tightens up the spread between highest and lowest and is a good boost for MAD classes though this system already aids them quite a bit. Of course, with bonuses being rarer in PF2, SAD class ability to lock in an 18 (if not a penalized stat) is pretty important too.
There will be stat items, but +2 looks to be the max and a late game thing. There's at least one item that gives you an 18 Str or +2 (whichever is better), which brings a bit of old school DnD back.
Funnily enough, capping at 24 in abilities is pretty close to the 25 even gods had in 1st ed. DnD. Now I wonder how capped the monsters are.
Cheers
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Speculation: I think that NPC types may not get that last boost, but it does thrown off some of the math of levels matching CR.
There are two types of NPCs. Those built as PCs, who are built exactly the same, and those built as monsters (who don't even have Ability Scores per se, just Modifiers).
Now I wonder how capped the monsters are.
Not as capped as PCs are. Ogres have a +5 Str Mod at 3rd level, and the Grim Reaper has a +10 Dex Mod and several +8s at 21st level.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
-Destiny: (Not yet a game term, but it makes for ABCD) Get +2 to four different stats of your choice because you're a hero!
I like it!
RESONANCE
So there's a lot of kerfluffle around Resonance, the new metric for determining how many magic items one can activate per day.
Resonance is Cha bonus + level (and likely there's a feat to boost that by 2), so going by PF1 standards, this is disastrous for those that made extensive use of consumables.
Note:
-Magic weapons aren't activated unless performing a special ability (like shooting fire rays).
-Protective items are consolidated (i.e. armor provides save bonuses), and do need activation, 1 Resonance for the day.
-Much enhancement comes from levels, rather than loot.
-Even if you run out of Resonance, you can attempt to use magic items (on a flat roll that worsens) until you critically fail. Yes, you may waste potions this way.
-The first set of playtesters seem fine w/ Resonance which to me is a big signal we should wait to playtest it before judging.
ETA: Staffs are an exception to the weapons rule, that is if they're being used as more than a martial weapon. They take a Resonance, but seem to also give a static bonus (i.e. a bonus to healing) and access to a Cantrip. Cantrips from items, from what we've seen, do not use Resonance to activate (though there's that 1st Resonance to acquire). Casting a regular spell from a staff does use Resonance, as well as charges.
So yes, as well as gold (or silver in the new economy), players must balance this metric in. So spamming cheap wands, scrolls, or potions is out. Having a flotilla of ioun stones is out. But keep in mind, a charge from a heal wand can hit the whole party!
Since much of this mechanic is framed in the negative, it's finding a difficult time being accepted. As a spamaholic who used such items abusively, I can understand how Resonance aids game balance, especially at the highest levels which are hardest to write.
Updates:
So the Sorcerer blog is up, and as well as introducing many mechanics to balance its spellcasting alongside Wizards' & with the new upcasting/downcasting (or not, we'll see in the playtest), it also revealed that one's bloodline will determine which spell list the PC uses!
So Arcane, Divine, Occult, or Primal are all available! (Plus the bloodline will give spells known as usual too, often from other lists.)
(And the devs have clarified the divine Sorcerer does not represent the Oracle.)
Rangers were revealed, losing spells (though possibly gaining them back in the future), and gaining (if opted for) a better pet, traps, and/or teamwork boosts as well as environmental tricks.
Their default offensive ability is lowering iterative & ranged penalties against selected foes (an ability they can share with others if they go the teamwork direction). (See the blog or Martial Lowdown post for more.)
Playtesting:
So for the players, there's Doomsday Dawn which will use 5 different PCs over the course of 7 adventures, each of which will be about 2-3 sessions. One PC will feature in 3 adventures, and the other 4 get one each. Doomsday Dawn is built for 4-6 players, but other than some specific points where you should have that amount, Paizo has said to play w/ as many PCs as suits your group.
There will also be 4 replayable PFS scenarios at levels 1, 5, 5, & 10.
There should be pregen options for levels 1 & 5, but you have to build your level 10 from scratch. You can choose to build your 1s & 5s too, in the higher level cases using the WBL table from the playtest CRB (much like you'll have to do in Doomsday Dawn AFAIK). These adventures are built for 4 players, but can be adjusted for 6 (or 3 w/ NPC).
You can get "Playtest Points" in PFS for playing these, though what that means hasn't been settled yet AFAIK.
There is a dummy number for playtesters who do not wish to join PFS. I believe they still can share their feedback.
(Use player# 99 & PC number 1501 for the 1st, 1502 for the 2nd, etc. PFS players use their own number & 1501 for the first PC and can use more numbers if they like, but it's not important at this stage. All "Playtest Points" go to the player, not the PCs.)
See PFS Playtest Forum for more. (And to double check!)
So by default you'd have 5 Doomsday Dawn PCs & 4 PFS playtest PCS, and that's not counting replays, though of course you can just play variants of the same build too if that suits your playstyle.
For the GMs, you can run all of those, and you even get more points than a player for doing the PFS scenarios.
Also, if you wish to homebrew you can, but the further you deviate from the baseline, the less useful your data will be. (And I'm unsure how user friendly the data entry will be.)
For example, if you used only monsters from the online bestiary, w/ perhaps some NPCs using PC build rules from the CRB, and you kept the rules as presented in the playtest CRB, then your data would be more useful than if you invented monsters in a setting heavy with houserules. Whatever generates more data still aids in its own way.
So two weeks and counting...
All the classes have their blogs out if you have a favorite to go track down. But before that...
Archetypes, Multi-Classing, & Prestige Classes
Essentially these all run on the same mechanic of your PC using its class feats to choose from a different set of feats which it gains access to via a Dedication Feat (DF). You really aren't taking another class or variant of a class like in PF1, but rather integrating that set of feats into your options. Character and class ability progression remain the same other than taking these feats instead of normal class feats. Note: You always keep the option to take normal class feats.
First, take the Dedication Feat (DF) tied to the Arch/MC/PrC you want. These do have prereqs, with MC options starting at 2nd and appearing to all need a 16 in the other class's main stat, i.e. if you MC Wizard you need a 16+ Int. The sample DFs we've seen give a broad range of abilities, sometimes including a unique or rare ability. Which is to say, if these don't overlap with abilities you already have, these feats are quite worthwhile. I'm guessing most every PC should take one! And if you like a class for its abilities, but not its feats, then this is a great way to add a better mix into the pool...or maybe get the abilities this way while being a different class.
In fact, DFs are so strong that you can't take another until your PC takes two more feats in that DF's set. So yes, the PC needs to take three feats minimum tied to that Arch/MC/PrC before it can acquire another Arch/MC/PrC Dedication Feat. Even if your PC acquires a new DF, it can still take its normal class feats or feats accessed through previous DFs. Of course, in some of the examples, after taking the DF+2 feats some really competitive feats became available, and likely there'll be some normal class feats at the higher level your PC will want to pick up too.
There will be fewer Arch/MC/PrC options in the playtest than in the PF2 CRB. For example, only the Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, & Wizard are available to MC into, though Paizo plans to add the rest into the mix if no major changes need to be done. I'd advise looking at these as much as looking at the base classes to compare & contrast the so-many options your PC will have! One notable example is that the DF for Fighter (likely at 2nd level w/ a 16 Str min.) grants martial weapon training & armor training for all the armors, so that's a game changer for PC builds that want that, but don't get it from their starting class.
Anyway, less than a week 'til it drops!!!