RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I really like the way the Golarion flavour and mechanics work together for the Razmiran Priest (for the sorcerer) and the Lepidstadt Investigator (for the investigator). Although it's not quite as locked to Golarion (although I assume the basis it for it was Prophets of Kalistrade), I'd go for the Silksworn occultist for the same reason.
The archaeologist bard, for the reasons given above.
The hedge witch for the (surprisingly) witch I've found makes the class, with the appropriate hexes, a useful healer in a pinch; I'm also in favour pretty much by default of anything which means someone doesn't feel obliged to be the party cleric.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Knife Master Rogue
Aldori Swordlord Fighter
Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue
Blade Bound Magus
Phantom Blade Spiritulist
Mooncursed Barbarian: One of the few ways you can actually play a shapeshifter at 1st level. It's highly thematic and rather balanced for what you lose to gain it.
Metamorph (Alchemist): Again, one of the few ways to make a shapeshifting character. And it's done with a class that makes it work in a thematic way.
Drunken Brute (Barbarian): This alcohol-based archetype was crucial to my barbarian/alchemist brewmaster.
Monk of the Empty Hand: I love improvised weapon builds. This was one of the few ways it can be a viable build.
Makeshift Scrapper (Rogue): See above.
Bladebound (Magus): Gaining a sentient weapon made for many narrative choices and character concepts. I built a whole campaign surrounding a magus's blackblade.
Card Caster (Magus): Inscribing spells onto cards is such a cool mechanic.
Eldritch Archer (Magus): Poorly balanced. Poorly designed. But the idea of an archer or gunner that shoots spells is really cool.
Kapenia Dancer (Magus): One of the few ways to make a dancing scarf build work in a thematic way.
Spellslinger (Wizard) and Holy Gun (Paladin): These made for very cool gunslinger concepts.
I wonder why so many people love Fey Trickster?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
1) Titan Mauler (Barbarian): I'll echo the sentiment that this is a really awesome concept brought down by wonky mechanics. I'd love to wield oversized weapons, dual-wield great weapons, and maybe eve dual-wield oversized great weapons as a capstone!
2) Skirmisher (Ranger): I've always felt that spells were really tacked-on to the Ranger, and that the magic-using variants should be the archetypes instead. This was a nice compromise, and I'd love to see the idea of a "mundane" Ranger expanded upon.
3) Swarm Monger (Druid): It was a toss-up between this one and Goliath Druid, as they're both very unique takes on the Druid that switch-up mechanics nicely, but this one feels just a bit more fitting for a Core Druid, in my opinion. The swarm form is very flavourful.
4) Toxicant (Alchemist): I'm really sad this archetype doesn't get a lot of attention, as it's one of the few poison-based archetypes I feel is worthwhile. Having your very own reneweable poison that deals HP damage and can be customized to inflict a wide variety of conditions is really cool.
5) Sound Striker (Bard): I like the concept of a character who primarily uses sonic damage in battle, and this is one of the few ways to accomplish that. It'd be cool to see a more elaborate version of this archetype in 2e, with more sound-based abilities.
Honourable mentions include the aforementioned Goliath Druid and the Promethean Alchemist (homunculi are creepy and cool). I'll also second the implementation of more ooze-based character options, as they're one of my favourite monsters.
Top 5 for base 11+ only
Pact Wizard (Haunted Heroes Handbook, not that crap from Familiar Folio)
Death Druid
Razmiran Priest Sorcerer
Thug Rogue
Sandown Bard
Top 5 from outside the 11+
Jinx Witch
Court Poet Skald
Bladebound Magus
Tome Eater Occultist
Twilight Sage Arcanist
*Serial Killer Vigilante (only because it functions as it should with its hidden strike)
I wonder why so many people love Fey Trickster?It's a Rogue with DR and can take Hexes instead of Talents.
No. This is a Sylvan trickster rogue.
Fey Trickster - mesmerist with hunter spells.
I like archetypes that grant cool class features to other classes. For example, any archetype that gave animal companions to a class. Granting deeds or pinache were also cool.
I wouldn’t mind seeing archetypes that granted you boons from every class.
For example the wizard version could give you half casting ability (or whatever the new 6th level casting is) and open the opportunity to take a wizard feat in place of the class feat of your chosen class.
Crossblooded, Sorcerer. "My blood is cursed, Darkness speaks to me in my solitude, I fear that one night the Voice will be stronger than my mind".
Skald, Bard. "Show'em the wrath of the nordsmen!"
Demonslayer, Ranger "If you think some people are monsters, you haven't seen the worst yet..."
Elder Mythos Culstist, Cleric "Did you hear His call...?"
Totem Warrior, Barbarian "My ancestors smile at me, their spirit, the spirit of our clan protects me. Can you say the same?"
Add to my list:
Sylvan trickster (Rogue)
Skirmisher (Ranger)
I'm curious.
If you were in charge of Pathfinder, based on what you've read in any official source and what you've seen at your game table, what FIVE archetypes would you make sure to include in the first year of Pathfinder Second Edition?
Please list the name of the archetype and the base class it modifies. Feel free to tell me why.
It's ok if you don't like the way that concept is currently implemented. Just your top 5 in concept if not always in execution. Or maybe there's a mechanical element you like--that's cool too.
Assume for now that we're talking about archetypes that modify the base 11 classes in Pathfinder First Edition, plus the alchemist.
Thanks much for your time and consideration! I'm thinking about this stuff today, and I thought it might be fun for you to think about it at the same time!
Keeping it to the base + Alchemist of the OP...
1. Skirmisher- Ranger. I've never liked Ranger spellcasting, and the added emphasis on weird little dirty tricks remains a delight. If I'm making a Ranger, odds are good they're a Skirmisher.
2. Alchemical Sapper- Alchemist. I hate Mutagen. I like bigger bombs and Stealth as a class skill. The only times my Alchemists aren't Sappers these days are when they're Cryptbreakers.
3. Tactician- Fighter. Less killy, more skilly. I kinda wish they could do more to actively buff their teammates at lower levels, but eh...
4. Dreadnought- Barbarian. I just like a good slow-moving dead-eyes sort of berserker.
5. Divine Hunter- Paladin. A shooty Pallie is just fun to do sometimes, and they make great team players.
Note that no full casters made this list- in part, that's because the things they tend to swap out are just interesting to me.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
IMHO if Alchemist also used "choose your path" exclusive design (ala Ranger Style or Arcane/Divine/Nature Bond abilities) vis-a-vis Bombs vs Mutagen, then what previously were archetypes become simple Class Feat options to specialize in that area. I.e. Guns can be extension/focus of Bombs. Beastmorph can be extension/focus of Mutagen. If you pick really divergent/marginal Path Feat then you won't be nearly as strong at 'core' schtick of Path, but you can mix and match for range of builds... which avoids frustrations with combining profusion of Archetypes. Future concepts that don't clearly cohabitate within base Paths can be their own unique Path (potentially including abilities drawn from other paths, as-is or in modified form). This lets players really focus on schtick they're most attracted to, without being force fed mechanics they are less inspired by and less synergistic with their build anyways. Path-exclusive, as well as sub-Path Feat-exclusive formula lists (modifying either base class or Path-specific lists) could make sense for certain cases as well.
Viking (Fighter), preferably with a few more "sea-based" skills. I love the combo of Rage plus "Actual Fighter Levels" for feat qualification.
Lore Warden (Fighter), preferably as a "generic" archetype that can be used for multiple classes, say trading out class feats for class skills.
Crossblooded (Sorcerer)
Arcane Healer (Bard) -- this makes one of the absolute best "Clerics of Razmir."
Hungry Ghost (Monk)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
1: Fighter - Brawler
Because not all unarmed warriors should be monks.
2: Monk - Master of Many Styles
However, I do love my kung-fu fighting.
3: Monk - Tetori
Also Wrestling.
4: Rogue - Phantom Thief
Because you want your Rogue to have some class.
5: Fighter - Lore Warden
That dumb muscle stereotype can get mauled by an owlbear. I like my genius bruisers thank you very much.
Eldritch Poisoner (Alchemist)
Instructor (Wizard)
Animist (Shaman)
Elder Mythos Cultist (Cleric), with the exception of the part where they only get one domain, I hate archetypes that do that to the cleric
Herb Witch (Witch)
D'oh! Sowwy!I wonder why so many people love Fey Trickster?It's a Rogue with DR and can take Hexes instead of Talents.No. This is a Sylvan trickster rogue.
Fey Trickster - mesmerist with hunter spells.
Just to mess you up even more, Fey Prankster Rogue was also introduced in Ultimate Wilderness, although this one doesn't do Hexes.
1: Skirmisher (Ranger)
2: Drunken Master (Monk)
3: Tattooed Sorcerer (Sorcerer)
4: Gray Paladin (Paladin)
5: Cardinal (Cleric)
See Rysky, it's easy to choose!
;)
Oh, and as far as wishlists for archetypes we never got- 5 things I always wanted to see:
1. Something to let Bards swap out spellcasting while keeping the rest of their schtick. Note: I have literally no idea what would adequately make up for giving up their spellcasting, but if I wanna play Orpheus or Fflewder Fflam...
2. Something like the Magician Bard, but dialed up a bit- I miss my 2E Bards who could go, "oh, you weren't impressed by my social roll, Mister NPC? Fine. LIGHTNING BOLT!"
3. An alchemist who swaps out the extract list- instead of making potions they or their allies drink, they load their spell effects into bombs/thrown vials. And, you know, without mutagen, because grah, mutagen.
4. A non-larcenous Rogue archetype that ditches Sneak Attack... think of it as a PC-class Expert with the evasion and trap sense stuff.
5. I have no idea what class this would go on, but something to replicate the medieval monk- Cloistered Cleric came close-ish, but I'd like something without spellcasting at all, in exchange for some Loremaster-Esque skill tricks...
My top 5 for the concept only.
1.Bard - Mute Musician
2.Cleric - Roaming Exorcist
3.Druid - Feral Shifter
4.Sorcerer - Umbral Scion
5.Wizard - Primalist
more general archetypes than actual archetypes but:
1. Arcane Archer (preferably that doesn't suck massively)
2. Actual Good Shapeshifter
3. Blood Mage (plus the not sucking part)
4. Throwing Big Heavy Things While Angry barbarian
5. Drunken Master (also that doesn't suck massively)
honorable mentions: Cleric Archer, Angry Elemental Druid, Paladin with Holy Soulknife Equivalent, Spellsword, Menagerie/Summoner Mage (try not to break this one), Martial with Sick Baller Ninja Skills ala path of war.
Oh, and as far as wishlists for archetypes we never got- 5 things I always wanted to see:
1. Something to let Bards swap out spellcasting while keeping the rest of their schtick. Note: I have literally no idea what would adequately make up for giving up their spellcasting, but if I wanna play Orpheus or Fflewder Fflam...
{. . .}
Alternatively, a Cavalier archetype that swaps out all the Mount stuff in exchange for getting full Bardic Performance. (Exemplar Brawler sort of does this from the Brawler chassis, but is missing several types of Bardic Performance.)
Guess I'll chime in.
1: Grenadier Alchemist
I like the combat engineer theme. Any alchemist/gunslinger crossover is nice.
2: Archivist/Studious Librarian Bard
Not exactly what I want, but close. Basically I'd like to play a bard that rather than do much in the way of musical performance, is just very knowledgeable and wise from knowing lots of stories and fables, and uses that knowledge to point out details and connections that others might miss.
3: Pact Wizard
I actually have enjoyed playing a "double" pact wizard (using both the familiar folio and haunted heros handbook archetypes). Very poignant both in both flavor and mechanics.
4: Menhir Savant/Supernaturalist/Halcyon Druid
I really love the occult/spiritual twist on the druid (the Shaman and the Medium are my two favorite classes), and I feel that these archetypes do solid jobs of covering that theme.
5: Warrior of the Holy Light/Oath of Vengeance Paladin
Much like my double Pact Wizard above, I really enjoy this combination, which gives a very nice theme with mutually constructive mechanical benefits.
Bonus! Blood Mage (ala Dragon Age)
I would love to play a class (some sort of full arcane caster most likely) that can trade hp or ability damage for increased spell prowess (be it save DC, Caster Level, overcoming spell resistance, free spell slots, adding metamagic, whatever). The Bloatmage halfway does this, but takes the flavor in something of the opposite direction.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Sohei Breaking the Monk mold with the ability to Flurry with non-Monk weapons, wearing armor while doing so, the Sohei could remove need for a Brawler base class as 2Es Monk + Fighter option. Adding additional weapons to the Flurry list without dipping Cleric is a great boon, as is single weapon TWF.
Archaeologist A caster who wears armor, dodges dragons breath, and has the guile of a Rogue - without needing to drag a set of bagpipes everywhere I go? Sign me up!
Is it bad I also just want to keep the Glibness and Rumormonger?
Daring Champion/Virtuous Bravo I feel many base classes in the ACG need not be reproduced in 2E, and strong Archetypes can recreate play styles and fill gaps in build options, rather than requiring an entire Swashbuckler class.
A similar archetype for Rogue or Fighter may be more suitable to the nimble Duelist theme.
Bolt Ace While not Core Rule Book, The Gunslingers ranged focused feature set is an important character option. Extra effort should be made to allow the Bolt Ace to stack with every (or close to every) Gunslinger Archetype for full comparability with firearm free games.
Separatist Not a required Archetype as much as a problem to be addressed - many deities do not have access to Domains they should, such as Caydens lack of access to the Glory, Liberation, and Luck Domains.
I would also like to ask that if Clerics have 2 Domains in 2E, that each domain be considered its own class feature, to allow players to take 2 Archetypes that each trade one Domain, creating combinations like Divine Strategist/Crusader Cleric.
Wishlist
I would love an Archetype dedicated to switching sword grips as needed, making use of Half-Swording and Murder Strikes.
Came up with an Alchemist archetype I'd like to see, based upon some thoughts [url=http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uzp1&page=2?Totally-new-class-you-would-like-to-see#88]developed/url] in another thread:
An Alchemist archetype that replaces Bombs with a Flamethrower -- minimal range, but everything in the area of effect gets the damage that would only be applied to the primary target of a normal Alchemist's Bombs.
This would be to normal Alchemist sort of what Scatter Gunner is to normal Gunslinger, but I also got the idea to add Heavy Armor and scaling Fire Resistance. Now, not only is this concept upgraded from StarCraft I Firebat to StarCraft II Firebat, but this would be really awesome for a Diabolist or Hellknight Alchemist (the latter potentially foreshadowing a type of Hellknight in Starfinder). Of course, this isn't to deny the possibility that a few Chaotic characters might also get their hands on this archetype . . . .
I was going to call this Infernal Alchemist, but then I realized that is just 1 letter off from the existing Internal Alchemist (which takes a sort of opposite approach with Alchemist, but doesn't seem like a very good archetype), which might cause confusion. So how about Hellchemist?
As the Breath Weapon Bomb Discovery exists I'm not sure of the need for a flamethrower wielding Alchemist. Not trying to s#%~ on your idea, but I feel a Discovery makes the option more flexible.
Also a Gunslinger Archetype that suits your concept already exists.
Might be fun on it's own, but I would vote no. Pathfinder still has a pseudo-medieval vibe going on. OK, flintlocks in some places are maybe a thing. Medieval alchemy is real. But adding this stuff that is really much more modern and I start losing the plot. When you add this stuff it becomes inconceivable why there also isn't internal combustion engines, which would invalidate the prevalence of sailing ships. Etc.
I mean, imagine that is added to world. So now in Reign of Winter when they go to WWI era Earth with soldier with flamethrowers... nobody cares. This is also my problem with "Gunslingers" which drags the world into early modern setting which is where "gunslingers" actually belong, in age of train, not (at best) Spanish conquistadors with arquebuses or Turko-Mongol warmachine cannons. Again, imagine an AP travelling to future with gunslingers in wild west... Been there, done that, so who cares about these "cow boys"?
I think the setting is stronger when it doesn't try to go EVERYWHERE (EVERYWHEN?), when you can imagine a timeline between Pathfinder and Starfinder where that more early modern stuff would fit better, that would be distinct rule/setting Steampunkfinder if you will. In Pathfinder, with magic and alchemy and fantastic tinkery you can have FANTASTIC stuff going on, so why not focus on telling that narrative?
You seem to be referencing some sci-fi video-game (Starcraft) which really tells it all for me. Pathfinder does not need to be aping videogame imagery, especially not Sci-Fi stuff.
Barbarian - Titan Mauler (Barbarians wielding oversized weapons just works in my mind)
Bard - Archaeologist (a spontaneous caster who can wield a blade and doesn't need a musical instrument is always welcome)
Cleric - Sacred Fist (okay, so this is a Warpriest archetype, but an unarmored, unarmed holy fighter who can heal allies is something I tried to build many times. Though I guess you could go the other way and have an archetype variant of the Qinggong Monk that could use ki to heal, and then hadoken your friends back to health.)
Ranger - Skirmisher (since I've always favored a spell-less Ranger)
Sorcerer - I'm not sure if there is an archetype for this, but some kind of learned Sorcerer, one who didn't quit school the moment they discovered they could cast spontaneously. Basically get more skills and skill points, be able to learn Arcane Discoveries, and maybe something like scribing scrolls from a wizard's spellbook. Casting from Int would be a plus as well.
Sorcerer - I'm not sure if there is an archetype for this, but some kind of learned Sorcerer, one who didn't quit school the moment they discovered they could cast spontaneously. Basically get more skills and skill points, be able to learn Arcane Discoveries, and maybe something like scribing scrolls from a wizard's spellbook. Casting from Int would be a plus as well.
Not so much. The Sage wildblooded Sorcerer (an arcane variant) is INT based, but no extra skills.
Sage Sorcerer VMC Bard might do for you.
Archetype Tax: Now that I've had a better look at the Shifter base class, Oozemorph is top-notch. Though I'd rather play a Doppelganger standard Shifter.
|
|
Going for the subset of my favourite archetypes that represent relatively core concepts
1) Cloistered/Cardinal Cleric, either or both. I would love to see a cleric that has social and/or scholarly skill instead of martial training. Ideally I'd probably make the Cloistered scholarly archetype, and then combine Cardinal with Evangelist for a social type.
2) Lore Warden (Fighter). Really it should be possible for a base fighter to act tactically, control the battlefield, and exploit enemy weaknesses. Tactician is similar conceptually, though mechanically it's focused around teamwork tactics which is a slightly different niche.
3) Zen Archer (Monk). There are a lot of good monk archetypes, but this one both has an iconic theme, and also feels very distinct both from other monks and other archers.
4) Feyspeaker (Druid). In general, I like druid archetypes that emphasize some specific aspect of the druid's connection to nature. I also love fey, and while I'm not super keen on the execution of this archetype I think it's a great concept. Mechanically, I think there's also a niche for a charisma-based and possibly spontaneous casting druid.
5) Virtuous Bravo (Paladin). It was hard to pick between this and Chosen One, but of the two the Virtuous Bravo felt more like it filled a hole - and as much as I love the familiar, the concept of Chosen One is pretty easy to pull off without mechanical effects. In general, I'll put in a request for support for Paladin concepts that aren't "Knight in shining plate who swore a formal oath to a knightly or religious organization," and that includes diverse combat styles. (I'm ambivalent about the Grey Paladin, because it essentially treats alternative alignment paladins as a lesser version of the Paladin, which makes it hard to be enthusiastic about playing one.)
Note: my top two are archetypes that give 2 skill/level classes more skills.
Me on Monday - "Hey Erik, cool thread over the weekend. What were the results..."
Erik stares at me intently.
Me - "I'll get right on correlating those results for you..."
(I kid of course. This is the sort of thing we've been dying to ask, but couldn't really until the news was out. Interested in seeing what folks really like in the realm of Archetypes.)
HA HA HA JOKE'S ON YOU I AM CORRELATING THE RESULTS MYSELF.
Ha ha ha joke's on me, you're probably doing it too. :)
Joke's on me, I counted the first two pages before realizing that I was way behind you, anyway.
Nice to see that most of the popular archetypes are ones I like.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
As the Breath Weapon Bomb Discovery exists I'm not sure of the need for a flamethrower wielding Alchemist. Not trying to s@$* on your idea, but I feel a Discovery makes the option more flexible.
{. . .}
That's actually good to know. I somehow missed that one. Although I might still be up for a Hellchemist archetype that starts with an enlarged area Breath Weapon Bombs/Flamethrower and Heavy Armor (especially for Hellknight shtick) instead of Bombs and Throw Anything, and then can get regular Bombs (or alternatively Cryptbreaker-style Bombs) as a Discovery . . . .
Might be fun on it's own, but I would vote no. Pathfinder still has a pseudo-medieval vibe going on. OK, flintlocks in some places are maybe a thing. Medieval alchemy is real. {. . .} In Pathfinder, with magic and alchemy and fantastic tinkery you can have FANTASTIC stuff going on, so why not focus on telling that narrative?
You seem to be referencing some sci-fi video-game (Starcraft) which really tells it all for me. Pathfinder does not need to be aping videogame imagery, especially not Sci-Fi stuff.
You're too late. Iron Gods already came out, and seems to have been quite well liked.
Besides, what I was thinking of doesn't have to look like a StarCraft Firebat -- that's just one option(*). Hellknight will do just fine . . . .
(*)Edit: Also, I just remembered that several years ago, well before Iron Gods was announced, Paizo came out with some futuristic Pathfinder artwork, including Harsk with some kind of ray gun or flamethrower . . . .
Titan fighter: I've always enjoyed having the choice of playing the "oversized weapon" fighter even if it physically makes no sense, and I think the fighter version is a bit mechanically better than the barbarian one.
Sacred Shield paladin: I've always enjoyed the tanky class that instead of drawing monster's attention, blocks for party members instead. Far more heroic in my mind.
Sczarni Swindler rogue: I don't know why, but all of the Golarion lore archetypes are awesome to me, but I've always had a special place in my heart for the idea of Sczarni rogues getting their own class features.
Dragon Shaman druid: I miss the Dragon Shaman from 3.5, and while the "wording" of the Dragon Shaman Druid makes playing it pretty hard without a friendly GM, I still love the idea of dragon powered faith. (I may also miss paladins of bahamut, but that's another matter entirely)
Silver Balladeer bard: probably one of my favorite concepts for a class. Had alot of fun playing a Rakshasa-blooded tiefling silver balladeer with the coin shot spell. It was pretty great.
1. Cloistered Cleric
2. Dervish Dancer
3. Urban Ranger
4. Flowing Monk
5. Chirurgeon Alchemist
With 392 posts at the time of writing I doubt you'll be getting much out of even more ranting, but here's my list:
1) is 100% the Elder Mythos Cultist (Cleric). It takes something I've always loved (the elder mythos) but that never made sense (an extremely wise individual that worships... an insane god that wants to destroy the world? What?) and turns it into something logical. Of course this CN gnome believes Cthulhu is the ultimate savior of gnomekind, he has a WIS score of 7 and has neither patience nor common sense!
REALLY scary thought: What if he's actually right?
I'm a big fan of archetypes that convert casting scores in general, since it opens up race-related concepts and character options without the nagging feeling you're hampering yourself mechanically, but the Elder Mythos Cultist absolutely takes the cake in sheer flavor and the wonderful roleplay opportunities it presents.
{. . .}
I can see the virtue in this. Which reminds me that I'd like to see an Oracle archetype that is actually good for Dwarves (and you know what that means . . .). Deep Seer -- these are Dwarves who have delved too deeply into something, and come out forever changed, both blessed and cursed to reveal their wisdom in unconventional ways . . . .
A few others that I would love to see:
Waterdancer (monk)
Really cool idea, should have been made to work with any one chosen element to have a fun elemental bender of a monk.
Stonelord (paladin)
I'd love to see this sort of idea expanded to give paladin a wider variety of righteous flavors while still feeling like a crusader of something.
Flowing monk and monk of the iron mountain
These are the opposite ends of a spectrum I want the core monk to strive for. They also stack, and I love archetype stacking.
Internal alchemist
This one didn't change nearly enough about the class for its flavor. Wandering herbalist/alchemist martial artists are a Chinese fantasy tradition, I would love to see them more readily playable.
Iroran paladin
I really wanted to play one of these and never got the chance.
With 392 posts at the time of writing I doubt you'll be getting much out of even more ranting, but here's my list:
1) is 100% the Elder Mythos Cultist (Cleric).
Sadly like a lot of cleric archetypes.... a great idea but poorly thought out and underpowered.
Definitely worth a shot if they can pull off a re-do
Honestly, some of these like Evangelist and Archaeologist I would personally like to see as distinct classes, since thematically they occupy a broad enough niche that you could use more support