Operatives and Envoys feel like they got Screwed.


General Discussion


Pretty much the title. Operatives and Envoys feel weak compared to the other classes. 3/4 BAB classes get WORSE at combat as they level against creatures of equal CR vs Average Party Level. It's the same for Mystic and Technomancer, but at least they gain spells to compensate. Part of it is the massive change to Flatfooted. A flat -2 rather than losing Dex AC is fine for Full BAB (Which is why I like it in PF2e) but Operatives, who rely on Flatfooted to use their signature class ability, don't get much work out of a small 10% increase when they ride a linear decline in combat effectiveness from level 1 to level 20, with Envoys being even worse. And yes, I know they're the skill classes and they perform well in the non-combat scenarios, but at the end of the day, everyone wants to feel like they're helping in the Nighclub shootout, rather than just cheering on the Martials and Casters as they handle everything.


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My group does not have an Envoy, but has an operative. The player thinks he is the best character in the table and sometimes feel sorry for the others, because of his huge broad array of skills.

So the beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I guess. In any case, asking them to be as good as soldiers in combat AND still be much much much much much better at skills might not be a balanced approach.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Operatives don't appear to fall that far behind in damage at high levels. Part of it is that they get triple and quad attack. Add in Multi-Weapon Fighting to reduce the penalty and that is a lot of chances to hit.

Envoys have some very strong abilities such as suppressing or removing conditions, healing stamina, and other effects. They work better the more characters there are in the group. Like Bards, they are a force multiplier.


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We need to hook you up with the "Operatives are over-powered" thread and let y'all fight it out.

Envoys do just fine, I wouldn't hesitate to play one. The only problem I've noticed with them is that some of the Improvisations are a little hard to use ("Get Down!" is one because it requires the recipient to drop Prone, and as it turns out characters rarely want to do this) and it'd be nice to have a broader selection, hence this. Apart from that, no complaints.


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What you just said is the equivalent of saying, “Rogues and bards got screwed in pathfinder because they don’t have the same attack bonus as a barbarian.”

Makes me think that you haven’t read the book enough. Gameplay is more than just a couple numbers. There are multiple variables that come into play when playing this game.


JetSetRadio wrote:

What you just said is the equivalent of saying, “Rogues and bards got screwed in pathfinder because they don’t have the same attack bonus as a barbarian.”

Makes me think that you haven’t read the book enough. Gameplay is more than just a couple numbers. There are multiple variables that come into play when playing this game.

Hardly. Rogues and Bards had far more methods to make up for their 3/4 BAB. Firstly being Enhancement bonuses, of which there are, to my knowledge, none in Starfinder. And I said, I know the RP and skills are important. In this, the Operatives and Envoys do very well. But again, when the bullets and lasers start flying, combat being one of the cores of the game, having characters that actually decrease in combat effectiveness gets pretty discouraging. You can have the best stealth in the world (Hell, Operatives quite literally have the best stealth in the world), but if at level 20 your shots in a perfect min-max scenario only has a 50% chance of hitting a CR 20 target, that leads me to believe either this game is designed for you to mow through weak faceless minions Dynasty Warriors Style, or Envoys and Operatives are literally bound to being skill-monkeys and walking starship modifiers at highlevel and to just dive for cover while the casters and martials deal with the problem.


An operative with high dex and using trick attack for an effective +2 to hit has a better chance to hit than a martial for most of a characters career though, don't they? Especially since things like weapon focus give them extra points for not having a full bab...


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Deranged Stabby-Man wrote:
but if at level 20 your shots in a perfect min-max scenario only has a 50% chance of hitting a CR 20 target

... then if you're that dedicated to a combat build, you probably also have abilities like multi-attack mastery or knockout shot that compensate you handsomely for any such deficit; the built-in ability to switch exploits out at will once per day even if didn't originally build with this in mind; and the built-in ability to attack four times in a round while incurring only the basic full attack penalty. I have a lot more sympathy for the "Operatives are over-powered" guy, frankly, although he's wrong too.


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I've played over 1000 hours worth of Paizo scenarios over the last 7 years, and NONE of it was at level 20.

Maybe not at level 20, but for a large chunk of the game, the mightiest weapon for an operative is the Dragon Gland.

With exploits like cloaking field, holographic clone, and uncanny mobility, an operative can be more durable in combat than a soldier.

Envoys can give the whole team +4 to hit. Everyone can still hit at level 20.

Currently, envoys don't get much after level 12, but that may change by the time I actually get a character to that level.


CeeJay wrote:
We need to hook you up with the "Operatives are over-powered" thread and let y'all fight it out.

This was a joke, BTW. ;)


whew wrote:


Envoys can give the whole team +4 to hit.

I keep seeing this thrown around. Are you talking about the technically +4 from Improved Get 'Em and Clever Feint/Attack, or is there an Envoy Ability I haven't seen yet?

Silver Crusade

Deranged Stabby-Man wrote:
Pretty much the title. Operatives and Envoys feel weak compared to the other classes.

Serious question - is this based on actual play experience or are you just theorizing from having read the book?

If the former, then please give us actual examples of where they're weak.

If the latter, then experience shows that you're just flat out wrong, at least at the lower levels. I imagine that few people have yet made it much past level 8 or so (the 4th book in the AP) but user experience across those levels seems to have overwhelmingly (not universally of course, when do ALL gamers ever agree about anything ? :-() come to the conclusion that operatives and envoys are doing just fine thank you very much.


My home game group is playing Legendary Planet's SF adaptation. We're currently level 7. The party is switch hitter blitz Soldier (me), defensive Solarion, daredevil Operative, and healer Mystic.

The Operative is our main damage dealer. I'm #2, but that's largely because I'm primary dex and I spend a lot of time punching. #3 is the Solarion, largely because the fire explosion thing is consistent even through the Solarion is built fully for AC and damage absorption.

The Operative is our primary source of skills. While there are select things others are better at, but the Operative scales that better than anyone else and has a rank in everything at a bare minimum. It actually breaks the presentation on Hero Lab Online because the skills box is too large to fit on page 1, where it wants to put it.

When it comes to movement, the Operative and my Soldier both have 50' land and climb, but the Operative also has 50' swim because of specialization choice. The Operative will scale past me in 2 levels. I resigned myself to that long ago. The pair of us do some pretty ridiculous things in combat with that speed.

Now, I'll readily admit that we're at a point with this system where monster creation is effectively a magic feelings box and nothing quite feels right. Some encounters have been difficult because the numbers just haven't made sense, while others have had no challenge at all. In the fights that have been more challenging, the Operative has had some difficulty hitting with consistency, but we've been adjusting tactics to make this easier. Those same fights are similarly inconsistent for me when using my higher success rate attacks, so I don't attribute that to class weakness. Every indication I've had is that the Operative performs just fine.

I'm playing in another home game at level 5 with an Envoy in the party. She is our primary method of sustain in fights, spending most of her actions on Get 'Em, Inspiring Boost, and Hurry. The bonuses provided have a significant impact on most combats. She's also our primary face character and provides a ton of skills. Not once have I felt that the Envoy has been a burden to the group or sub-par compared to another class.

So yeah, long story short, I'm not seeing what you're claiming. At all.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Deranged Stabby-Man wrote:
Pretty much the title. Operatives and Envoys feel weak compared to the other classes. 3/4 BAB classes get WORSE at combat as they level against creatures of equal CR vs Average Party Level. It's the same for Mystic and Technomancer, but at least they gain spells to compensate. Part of it is the massive change to Flatfooted. A flat -2 rather than losing Dex AC is fine for Full BAB (Which is why I like it in PF2e) but Operatives, who rely on Flatfooted to use their signature class ability, don't get much work out of a small 10% increase when they ride a linear decline in combat effectiveness from level 1 to level 20, with Envoys being even worse. And yes, I know they're the skill classes and they perform well in the non-combat scenarios, but at the end of the day, everyone wants to feel like they're helping in the Nighclub shootout, rather than just cheering on the Martials and Casters as they handle everything.

Yeah, 3/4 BAB classes pretty much require the Weapon Focus feat if they want to not lag behind the attack curve at the higher levels.

Fortunately, in Starfinder, the feat is designed so that lower BAB classes get more of a bonus out of it. That evens the playing field a little.


The only thing I'm noticing about the Envoy is that s/he is very dependant on others, and many of the class features resolve around buffs and debuffs, which is kinda hard to utilize on your own. It's almost like s/he needs to be accompanied with a soldier squad all the time as a retenue.

I know that it's not the case, but you can't argue that the envoy doesn't possess something that can turn the tide for him or herself in a battle. If s/he's alone, s/he is kinda nerfed.

On their own, the other clases... seem to fare better.


That's pretty much true for all "support" classes in every game. They shine by making the party good, if they don't have a party, they can't do their stuff.


gustavo iglesias wrote:
That's pretty much true for all "support" classes in every game. They shine by making the party good, if they don't have a party, they can't do their stuff.

Yeah, but... even the Bard had some solo options, like decent attacks and spells, as well as skills for non-fight encounters.

The envoy... doesn't have anything... what am I missing here... ?

Feel more like a NPC class at first glance, but no, I get it, it's not. It's like they took the Bard, give it the Cavalier's Orders, but removed the spells and anything that would be "personal" in terms of targeting.

Is the envoy actually focused on non-fight encounters more than the other classes? Sounds more like someone who talks his or her out of a battle... and orders his or her firends around to attack if the enemy doesn't surrender.

Maybe I'm just stating the obvious here and maybe that was the intention, but if we can simply describe an envoy's role in any party, that could help a lot.


The Envoy is a skill-monkey class that buffs the party, debuffs enemies and acts as the party "face." The class concept isn't unclear.

Whether it's insufficient for your game usually depends on whether it provides opportunities to really leverage Skill Expertise, which can make for everything from an extraordinarily powerful diplomat in scenarios that revolve around that to an extraordinarily powerful hacker for campaigns that need one.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Deranged Stabby-Man wrote:
JetSetRadio wrote:

What you just said is the equivalent of saying, “Rogues and bards got screwed in pathfinder because they don’t have the same attack bonus as a barbarian.”

Makes me think that you haven’t read the book enough. Gameplay is more than just a couple numbers. There are multiple variables that come into play when playing this game.

Hardly. Rogues and Bards had far more methods to make up for their 3/4 BAB. Firstly being Enhancement bonuses, of which there are, to my knowledge, none in Starfinder. And I said, I know the RP and skills are important. In this, the Operatives and Envoys do very well. But again, when the bullets and lasers start flying, combat being one of the cores of the game, having characters that actually decrease in combat effectiveness gets pretty discouraging. You can have the best stealth in the world (Hell, Operatives quite literally have the best stealth in the world), but if at level 20 your shots in a perfect min-max scenario only has a 50% chance of hitting a CR 20 target, that leads me to believe either this game is designed for you to mow through weak faceless minions Dynasty Warriors Style, or Envoys and Operatives are literally bound to being skill-monkeys and walking starship modifiers at highlevel and to just dive for cover while the casters and martials deal with the problem.

nah they both do quite well in combat in my experience though at them moment i would personally upgrade to a long arm with the envoy


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jimthegray wrote:
nah they both do quite well in combat in my experience though at them moment i would personally upgrade to a long arm with the envoy

Agreed. Basically the Envoy, drone Mechanic, Technomancer, and Mystic have feat taxes in the form of the Longarm proficiency and Weapon Specialization feats. Using just small arms as your damage output is a serious disadvantage. At 3rd level going from a arc pistol doing 1d6+1 to a laser rifle doing 1d8+3 is significant (4.5 average vs 7.5 average), basically a 66% damage upgrade.


JiCi wrote:
gustavo iglesias wrote:
That's pretty much true for all "support" classes in every game. They shine by making the party good, if they don't have a party, they can't do their stuff.

Yeah, but... even the Bard had some solo options, like decent attacks and spells, as well as skills for non-fight encounters.

The envoy... doesn't have anything... what am I missing here... ?

Starfinder and Pathfinder maths are different. Within the context of their respective games they do well.

The envoy's job is support. They're the only class currently who can heal stamina in-combat (which you can use in conjunction with Get Em), have a very strong skillset, and are very good at "clutch" saves ending conditions before an enemy can capitalize on them. this is without spending resources such as spells or items.

Some of their improvisations are actually immensely strong but subtle. Situational Awareness comes to mind.


TarkXT wrote:
JiCi wrote:
gustavo iglesias wrote:
That's pretty much true for all "support" classes in every game. They shine by making the party good, if they don't have a party, they can't do their stuff.

Yeah, but... even the Bard had some solo options, like decent attacks and spells, as well as skills for non-fight encounters.

The envoy... doesn't have anything... what am I missing here... ?

Starfinder and Pathfinder maths are different. Within the context of their respective games they do well.

The envoy's job is support. They're the only class currently who can heal stamina in-combat (which you can use in conjunction with Get Em), have a very strong skillset, and are very good at "clutch" saves ending conditions before an enemy can capitalize on them. this is without spending resources such as spells or items.

Some of their improvisations are actually immensely strong but subtle. Situational Awareness comes to mind.

Oh, I'm not saying it's a bad thing, I'm saying that... the envoy has a glaring weakness. While I get that Starfinder sessions are played in teams, you can't really argue that a lone envoy isn't much of a threat :P

Acquisitives

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
JiCi wrote:
TarkXT wrote:
JiCi wrote:
gustavo iglesias wrote:
That's pretty much true for all "support" classes in every game. They shine by making the party good, if they don't have a party, they can't do their stuff.

Yeah, but... even the Bard had some solo options, like decent attacks and spells, as well as skills for non-fight encounters.

The envoy... doesn't have anything... what am I missing here... ?

Starfinder and Pathfinder maths are different. Within the context of their respective games they do well.

The envoy's job is support. They're the only class currently who can heal stamina in-combat (which you can use in conjunction with Get Em), have a very strong skillset, and are very good at "clutch" saves ending conditions before an enemy can capitalize on them. this is without spending resources such as spells or items.

Some of their improvisations are actually immensely strong but subtle. Situational Awareness comes to mind.

Oh, I'm not saying it's a bad thing, I'm saying that... the envoy has a glaring weakness. While I get that Starfinder sessions are played in teams, you can't really argue that a lone envoy isn't much of a threat :P

and a lone soldier is going to have skill ranks in what? in a RP scenario all that STR doesn't count for squat.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Operative trick attack doubles with crits. They have the highest skill bonuses in the game, and have the most trained class skills. That includes tumbling away. So, no, operatives not screwed, they are probably the best class.


My level 5 Hacker Operative has a +21 Computers check for his Trick Attack (the DC is 20 + CR), which is pretty amazing for damage output. I built an Envoy before, and within their niche, they are very cool and useful. I don't feel like I really get the mindset of "lone wolf characters", because it's mostly an extension of players trying to win vs the others. I had a player in my group who always had a first objective: be safe vs other player characters; it's extremely limiting in my opinion; but to each his own, right?

If you really want to play a self-sufficient character, the Operative is pretty decent, in-combat and out-of-combat. Don't forget that Trick Attack works very different from what Sneak Attack did. Being flat-footed is a bonus to a successful TA, not a requirement for it.


Envoy are pretty awful in solo combat. However, this is a team game. Chalking them as bad because they are awful in solo combat is like saying Tom Brady is a bad quaterback because he sucks at swimming.

Second Seekers (Luwazi Elsebo)

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My low level (3) Dead Suns Envoy does fine in mêlée with his "Walk it off! Rub done dirt in it!" Inspiring Boost...

But how many people are crazy enough to build Vesk Envoys?


Operatives are underpowered?

Uh... What?

They have the best skills, they can easily have the highest saves, they have the best skill bonuses bar none, their trick attack puts them above every class that isn't specifically Soldier or specifically a Melee Solarian.

What more do you want from a class? They are the most powerful freaking class in the game.

Acquisitives

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Jack Darkness wrote:

My low level (3) Dead Suns Envoy does fine in mêlée with his "Walk it off! Rub done dirt in it!" Inspiring Boost...

But how many people are crazy enough to build Vesk Envoys?

vesk make for great envoys - unlike all the other "monstrous" races, they don't take a penalty to charisma.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Yakman wrote:
Jack Darkness wrote:

My low level (3) Dead Suns Envoy does fine in mêlée with his "Walk it off! Rub done dirt in it!" Inspiring Boost...

But how many people are crazy enough to build Vesk Envoys?

vesk make for great envoys - unlike all the other "monstrous" races, they don't take a penalty to charisma.

there bonus to ac is also great and there str opens up heavy armor should you want to use it and offers a few build concepts that other races find harder to pull off


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The str from vesk opens up heavy weapons as a solid option for them as well and envoy can make pretty good use of the unwieldy ones without having to drop too much to get it.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Even the races with penalties aren't so bad, thanks to the awesome point buy system.

I've been running a ysoki soldier who had 18 Strength at 1st-level (and will continue to have max Strength for his whike career) in Starfinder Society and I have no regrets whatsoever.

I don't see why a Vesk envoy would be any different.


Ravingdork wrote:

Even the races with penalties aren't so bad, thanks to the awesome point buy system.

I've been running a ysoki soldier who had 18 Strength at 1st-level (and will continue to have max Strength for his whike career) in Starfinder Society and I have no regrets whatsoever.

I don't see why a Vesk envoy would be any different.

Roid-rat? Interesting concept...

Exo-Guardians

Ravingdork wrote:

Even the races with penalties aren't so bad, thanks to the awesome point buy system.

I've been running a ysoki soldier who had 18 Strength at 1st-level (and will continue to have max Strength for his whike career) in Starfinder Society and I have no regrets whatsoever.

I don't see why a Vesk envoy would be any different.

I'm digging the idea of a Ysoki power armor soldier. Grab 13 Str and go Armor Storm or Guard spec; by 5th level you can get baby's first Battle Harness and benefit from 18 Str. You can still afford to start with 18 Dex with this setup and get max Resolve.

This morning I was trying to stat out some sort of Soldier/Mechanic hybrid Ysoki that used power armor and the Mechanic's Overcharge to do brutal damage with Powered melee weapons, but somehow it morphed into an Android sniper with the Diaspora Rifle...

Anyway, I digress. I love it when I get to share the table with an Envoy, because Get 'Em and Inspiring Boost are my Vesk Armor Storm Soldier's best friends.


HWalsh wrote:

Operatives are underpowered?

Uh... What?

They have the best skills, they can easily have the highest saves, they have the best skill bonuses bar none, their trick attack puts them above every class that isn't specifically Soldier or specifically a Melee Solarian.

What more do you want from a class? They are the most powerful freaking class in the game.

They are not underpowered. But All types of Soldiers, Solarians and MEchanics outdamage them.


That's true. However, that's normal. If operatives did more damage than soldiers and also had much better skills, then soldiers would be really poor option.

Thing is, operatives are decent enough in combat to pull their weight, specially if we count not only damage but also debuffs


Erk Ander wrote:
HWalsh wrote:

Operatives are underpowered?

Uh... What?

They have the best skills, they can easily have the highest saves, they have the best skill bonuses bar none, their trick attack puts them above every class that isn't specifically Soldier or specifically a Melee Solarian.

What more do you want from a class? They are the most powerful freaking class in the game.

But All types of Soldiers, Solarians and MEchanics outdamage them.

This has not been my experience. Heck, last night, the only time I matched the trick attacks from a level 7 operative was when I crit as my level 7 soldier.


pauljathome wrote:
Deranged Stabby-Man wrote:
Pretty much the title. Operatives and Envoys feel weak compared to the other classes.

Serious question - is this based on actual play experience or are you just theorizing from having read the book?

If the former, then please give us actual examples of where they're weak.

If the latter, then experience shows that you're just flat out wrong, at least at the lower levels...

I'm pretty sure this is the case. Most of the complaints I'm reading are either based on comparisons to Pathfinder or reference to numbers on a table.

While I technically have yet to see an Envoy PC, the Operative pc in the group I GM for is definitely the strongest character (appropriate for the group's captain), and the envoy NPC they worked with for a time made a difference in combat even though she was 2 CR/levels behind them.


Serisan wrote:
This has not been my experience. Heck, last night, the only time I matched the trick attacks from a level 7 operative was when I crit as my level 7 soldier.

At 7th an operative's single trick attack damage roll is larger than an individual ranged Soldier's damage roll. Depending on build choices, a ranged Soldier can outdamage an Operative with their full attacks. (7+18+3=28 vs 11+7+2=20, KAC assumed)

A melee build Soldier at 7th can potentially have a similar damage roll per attack. However it's harder to full attack each round. On the other hand, attacks of opportunity are a thing. (9+7+6+3=25). If they do get a full attack off, it's signifcantly more expected damage.

Also build compromises can also lead to less damage output from a Soldier while generally all an Operative needs to do to max damage is max dex.

Out of curiosity what were your Soldier type and gear boost choices?


Easier to just link the character sheet.

I switch hit pretty frequently and spend a fair amount of time in melee, despite the 3 point stat mod swing. The devastation blade was looted from our last encounter, so I haven't started swinging that yet.

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