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Stats:
Str:12
Dex:12
Con:14
Int:12
Wis:16+2
Cha:9
Traits:Wisdom in the Blood
Fate's Favored
Adopted:Faith Healer
Feats:Improved Unarmed Strike
1:Additional Traits
Bonus Human Feat:Pummeling Style
3:Deific Obedience(Irori)
5:Signature Skill(Heal)
Bonus Style Feat:Snake Style
Bonus Favored Feat:Channel Smite
7:Guided Hand
This is a level 7 feat path for a human sacred fist warpriest?
And I cant help but feel I'm forgetting something as it feels like i might have a hard time surviving up to this point.
Am I just thinking too much about it?
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drop additional traits and pick up a draw back to get your 3rd trait, drop cha to 7 and get a race that gives wither str and wis or con and wis as a boost with a penalty to cha or int
Terrible idea. I am trying to keep this PFS friendly, and im not gonna play a damn dwarf.
Believe me. I know that i could just pick up an aasimar, swap for scion of humanity and call it a day.
Also drawbacks are never worth it.
Why Signature Skill (Heal) and Faith Healer? If you want to heal, buy a Wand of CLW.
Deific Obedience is OK but not great (you're lacking the skill ranks to really make use of it), but I presume that's mainly flavor anyway.
Adopted also doesn't take a trait slot itself, so you've got a free one (or replace the Additional Traits feat).
Feats to consider: Possessed Hand (feat and a trait for the cost of a feat), Jabbing Style (you get the benefit without being in style, so it works alongside Pummeling Style!), and Power Attack. There're also the Mizu Ki Hikari Rebel/Quain Martial Artist traits from Dragon Empires Primer for +1 on damage rolls.
I'm honestly not convinced Guided Hand is worth it.
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So, Guided Hand has the same weakness as Weapon Finesse builds that don't/can't gain dex to damage: you do poor damage, although you seem to be trying to stack dice for that. This does seem to work, although I have a few questions about plans. Is this an undead hunter, or are you planning to channel negative energy? Are you aware that at 7th level you get only 4 channels a day with this build, and lose the awesome Fervor ability to cast buff spells on yourself in combat; this can be a very powerful ability that allows you to become far stronger the longer a fight drags on. Finding a way to cast mage armor would be... beneficial. The enhancement from Magic Vestment stacks with the armor bonus from Mage Armor, and both are hours/level.
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Why Signature Skill (Heal) and Faith Healer? If you want to heal, buy a Wand of CLW.
Deific Obedience is OK but not great (you're lacking the skill ranks to really make use of it), but I presume that's mainly flavor anyway.Adopted also doesn't take a trait slot itself, so you've got a free one (or replace the Additional Traits feat).
Feats to consider: Possessed Hand (feat and a trait for the cost of a feat), Jabbing Style (you get the benefit without being in style, so it works alongside Pummeling Style!), and Power Attack. There're also the Mizu Ki Hikari Rebel/Quain Martial Artist traits from Dragon Empires Primer for +1 on damage rolls.
I'm honestly not convinced Guided Hand is worth it.
Wait time out huh? The whole reason I didn't even consider jabbing style was because thought it didn't work like tbat.
As for signature skill, look up some threads on that regard. Sides when making builds I assume there's not a he olde mart every other corner, or a crafter on demand that can make an endless supply of them. Also the theme is kung fu doctor
Trust me I've had some dms that made me regret power gaming like that
So, Guided Hand has the same weakness as Weapon Finesse builds that don't/can't gain dex to damage: you do poor damage, although you seem to be trying to stack dice for that. This does seem to work, although I have a few questions about plans. Is this an undead hunter, or are you planning to channel negative energy? Are you aware that at 7th level you get only 4 channels a day with this build, and lose the awesome Fervor ability to cast buff spells on yourself in combat; this can be a very powerful ability that allows you to become far stronger the longer a fight drags on. Finding a way to cast mage armor would be... beneficial. The enhancement from Magic Vestment stacks with the armor bonus from Mage Armor, and both are hours/level.
Sacred fist no undead hunter
Jabbing Style (you get the benefit without being in style, so it works alongside Pummeling Style!)Wait time out huh? The whole reason I didn't even consider jabbing style was because thought it didn't work like tbat.
It doesn't say "While using this style", and thus it has no such limitation. The rules for style feats say feats with style feat prereqs only work when in said stace, but that doesn't apply to the base feat.
As for signature skill, look up some threads on that regard.
If you don't want my advice, just say so...
I don't really think you'll get much use from guided hand, so you could drop WIS to 14 or 16 (perfectly acceptable for a Warpriest, and equivalent to a 16 for AC if you leave your DEX), and then boost strength. You could also just be an oread if you don't like Dwarves, although human stat arrays are typically fine.
So, I would build an Oread Sacred Fist Warpriest as the following (probably not the best, but hey, tons of us here to add on.)
STR: 15 +2 [all ability increases here]
DEX: 12
CON: 14
INT: 12
WIS: 14 +2
CHA: 9 -2
You could drop the STR to a 14 to boost CHA if you don't want it that low. If human is a must have then it could be rebalanced pretty easily.
STR: 15 +2
DEX: 12
CON: 14
INT: 10
WIS: 16
CHA: 7
Skilled pretty much makes these arrays identical.
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Jabbing Style (you get the benefit without being in style, so it works alongside Pummeling Style!)Wait time out huh? The whole reason I didn't even consider jabbing style was because thought it didn't work like tbat.It doesn't say "While using this style", and thus it has no such limitation. The rules for style feats say feats with style feat prereqs only work when in said stace, but that doesn't apply to the base feat.
As for signature skill, look up some threads on that regard.If you don't want my advice, just say so...
So I can use pummeling style and jabbing style at the same time with no need for a swift action. But I can't use pummeling charge and jabbing master without MoMS's is that about right? Cause if that's the case then that changes EVERYTHING.
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Very weak character - at first level you will be AC15 with +1 hit 1-6+1 damage or flurrying at -1/-1 for 1-6+1. Not getting guided hand until 7th level makes you terrible in combat until you get it; then mediocre after you get it.
I would probably dip unchained monk at first level then go into molthuni arsenal warpriest (to get weapon training). Crane style will boost AC to respectable level.
STR 18 DEX 12 CON 14 INT 12 WIS 14 CHA 7
Traits - Aldori Caution
Feats - Dodge, Crane StyleUse a sansetsukon. While fighting defensively, you will have an AC of 19 (20 at 3rd level with 3 ranks of acrobatics).
You will flurry at +3/3 1-10+6
Aldori caution isn't PFS Legal, and i already got a crane style magus lined up.
Also im waiting for decklord to reply. If he can confirm what he said above it changes so many things.
There seems to be a contradiction here. On the one hand you want it for PFS, on the other you're worried about getting CLW wands. Pick one.
I'm betting Derklord's idea would be disputable in PFS. 'Expect table variation' is the phrase I think.
Another way of getting wisdom to attack is the sensei monk archetype (free at level 2) This loses flurry so it's never going to be a damage champion but it gets inspire courage which pushes accuracy up a bit, as well as making it a useful support character. With that accuracy it might be workable to try combat maneuvers. Something like
1: Dirty fighting
Human: Improved trip
Monk 1: IUS, stunning fist, ki throw
Sensei monk 2: (wis to attack/CMB)
3: Snake style
5: Signature skill (heal)
Monk 6: Improved bull rush
7: Improved ki throw
Between snake style and leaving your enemies prone your defence isn't too bad. Against untrippable enemies you can still provide inspire courage, or eventually use improved ki throw to knock them prone by throwing another enemy at them. Just a thought.
Edit: and it comes together much faster than your sacred fist.
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So I can use pummeling style and jabbing style at the same time with no need for a swift action. But I can't use pummeling charge and jabbing master without MoMS's is that about right? Cause if that's the case then that changes EVERYTHING.Jabbing Style (you get the benefit without being in style, so it works alongside Pummeling Style!)Wait time out huh? The whole reason I didn't even consider jabbing style was because thought it didn't work like tbat.It doesn't say "While using this style", and thus it has no such limitation. The rules for style feats say feats with style feat prereqs only work when in said stace, but that doesn't apply to the base feat.
As for signature skill, look up some threads on that regard.If you don't want my advice, just say so...
No you can't use two styles at a time without something special and style feats do nothing unless you're in that style. That applies to the base feat, you only get the feat's benefits when you're in the style.
So I can use pummeling style and jabbing style at the same time with no need for a swift action. But I can't use pummeling charge and jabbing master without MoMS's is that about right? Cause if that's the case then that changes EVERYTHING.
Exactly. The style feat rules say this: ""
*) Presumably, "cannot use a style feat" OoC is supposed to mean "cannot enter a stance" OoC, but it's irrelevant for this topic anyway.The last sentence is the only relevant limitation, and it only applies to feats with style feat prereqs. The style feat itself obviously has no such prereq.
Now, most** style feats contain the words "while using this style" or similar wording, and everything following those words is only active after you've spend a swift action to adapt that style's stance. Everything before those word, or the entire description if these words aren't present, is constantly active because nothing say it isn't.
For instance, Crane Style says "You take only a -2 penalty on attack rolls for fighting defensively. While using this style and fighting defensively or using the total defense action, you gain an additional +1 dodge bonus to your Armor Class." The reduced penalty is always active, but the +1 AC requires the stance.
Not only are there no rules saying that you need to be in a style feat's stance to benefit from it, it would make absolutely no sense to put the "while using this style" wording in the middle of the description if it's supposed to apply to the whole description.
**) 51 that do, 15 that don't.
I'm betting Derklord's idea would be disputable in PFS. 'Expect table variation' is the phrase I think.
I would definitely print out the UC rules on style feats to point out what I wrote above.
No you can't use two styles at a time without something special and style feats do nothing unless you're in that style. That applies to the base feat, you only get the feat's benefits when you're in the style.
Quote a rule that says so.
when making builds I assume there's not a he olde mart every other corner
If it's PFS, access to wands is guaranteed because you can buy them with PP between modules.
The last half of the sentence before the limitation you note Derklord reads:
'the style you are in persists until you spend a swift action to switch to a different combat style.'
i.e. when you start/switch to another style the style you were in stops.
That's the rule that stops you running two styles at once. From other passing references I believe it is intended and not a mistake.
That wording prevents you from being in two stances at the same time, I agree. The thing is, you're not trying to be in two styles at once. The idea is to never enter Jabbing Style's stance, because you don't need to!
It's worth noting that feats that have style feats as a prerequisite do explicitly require you to be in the style to reap any benefit from them at all. "You can use a feat that has a style feat as a prerequisite only while in the stance of the associated style." This means that while Ascetic Strike, for example, doesn't say anything about having to be in Ascetic Style to benefit from it, you still have to be in that style to do so because of the general rule. The wording is such that only a base style feat can offer any benefits to a character who is not actually in the appropriate style. (I suspect that being able to do anything with a style feat without being in that style is an oversight, but it does appear to be completely RAW.)
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I use that interpretation to get the benefit while not in crane style.
I still don't see how jabbing pummel saves this build idea. It still has bad AC and bad offense.
It doesn't but is has forced me to rethink a bunch of things.
This is my rethought build up to level 13
Stats
Str:12
Dex:16
Con:12
Int:12
Wis:14+2
cha:9
Improved Unarmed Strike
1:Weapon Finesse
Bonus Human Feat:Pummeling Style
3:
5:Signature Skill(Heal)
Bonus Style Feat:Snake Style
Bonus Favored Feat:
7:
9:Combat Style Master
11:Quicken Blessing
Bonus Style Feat:Pummeling Charge
Bonus Favored Feat:Stunning Fist
13:Mountain Splitting Strike
No idea how to fill the gaps though.
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here Mark confirms that ALL benefits of style feats is only when in style. Mark says that the wording is unclear but that even the part before "when using this style" is only active when using the style.
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I can't help but to think that you would be better off as a regular warpriest instead of a sacred fist. Sacred fist flurry of blows is no better than two weapon fighting. That gets you back weapon focus and the ability to wear armor. If you want flurry, you are better off dipping 1 level of unchained monk.
I think that once they changed sacred fist flurry to not be full BAB, that archetype is just bad.
Well truth be told i DID make an unarmed warpriest that used outslug style, but i kinda dropped it because and im not even kidding.......i thought it was too strong.
Between practically getting a feat per level along side the buffs i put on myself the damage i could output was absurd
here Mark confirms that ALL benefits of style feats is only when in style. Mark says that the wording is unclear but that even the part before "when using this style" is only active when using the style.
I hate to be 'that guy', but Mark's post doesn't "confirm" anything - it's explicitly non-official about how he would rule things.
Source.
I am actually happy to give my take on rules questions. But I've mentioned several times before that it's always just my opinion and holds no official weight.
It may be nice to know if you think unarmed characters are so overpowered that them getting small benefits from some style feats out-of-stance breaks the game and you're looking for some unofficial pseudo-RAI to justify nerfing what they can do according to the rules, but it's definitely not official.
The feat rules say you get the benefits section of feats you possess. The style feat rules say followup feats only work in stance. The second doesn't overrule the first, so it still applies to style feats. The way the rules work, unless something overrides the general feat rules, they're what counts.
It's perfectly reasonable to understand that RAI is that style feats only work when you're in that style (and that's pretty obviously the actual intent, RAW aside) while still feeling that unarmed characters are not overpowered. Not everybody's understanding of RAI and RAW (both of which are pretty clear in this case, and they're in conflict) is warped by a desire for something to be more or less powerful. (It's also silly to pretend that something like the entire function of Jabbing Style and other feats are a "small benefit"; the benefit of Jabbing Style is literally the benefit of a pretty good feat.)
that's pretty obviously the actual intent, RAW aside
I disagree - if that was the intend, why are there so many feats where the "while using this style" phrase is in the middle? It makes absolutely no sense to put it in the middle if it's supposed to apply to the whole description.