Martial damage per attack?


Prerelease Discussion


So, in PF1 a lot of the high-level damage from the fighting-classes comes from iterative attacks (which is also why it sucks when you don't get to make a full attack). Sure, you also get some extra damage from magic weapons, power attack, some class abilities/feats (e.g. Weapon specialization), and so on, but the big thing is getting to attack twice (or, to a degree, thrice).

But as I understand it, PF2 removes iterative attacks as a level-based thing - anyone can make a second attack at -5, and a third at -10. That means that the extra damage from multiple attacks can't be a reward for mid- to high-level fighting-types anymore.

To some degree, I'm guessing this will be partially compensated for by any attack hitting by 10+ being a crit, so high level -> high attack bonus -> more crits. But that assumes that AC isn't roughly keeping pace with attack bonus, which seems unlikely.

Starfinder also doesn't have extra attacks as a high-level thing - anyone can either make one regular attack as a standard action, or two attacks at -4 as a full-round action. It deals with this by making more damaging weapons available at higher levels - the azimuth laser pistol you're wielding at 1st level only deals 1d4 damage, but at 9th level you can get an aphelion laser pistol dealing 3d4 (or 4d4 if Boosted by using a move action).

Anyhow, I'm hoping to see how Paizo intends to handle this aspect of the game in a blog post some time soon.


If you can add additional effects to your attacks without sacrificing all damage, I think it helps. A Fighter should be able to chunk a Goblin with her axe and also try to sweep the leg without giving up all damage or doing it at a huge penalty. Basically, adding the ability to inflict conditions will help mitigate this, I think, and especially makes martial characters more useful when the times come that straight damage isn't enough.


Extra attacks only mean extra damage if they hit. Maybe everyone has the attack bonus to hit once, quasi martials have the attack bonus to hit even with a -5 and full martials have the bonus to still hit with a -10 (which would also mean they crit with the unmodified attack)?


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Extra damage will come from class feats, which replace things like Rogue talents, Alchemist discoveries, and Barbarian rage powers. I'm guessing Fighter class feats will be of comparable power to the Advanced Weapon/Armor Training options rather than traditional combat feats of PF1.

So far the one example we have is Sudden Charge, which allows a (direction changing!) charge and attack for two actions, rather than three, which basically means you get a free attack (or shield action, or whatever you choose to do) on charge and benefits a mobile ping pong playstyle.


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Staffan Johansson wrote:
Starfinder also doesn't have extra attacks as a high-level thing - anyone can either make one regular attack as a standard action, or two attacks at -4 as a full-round action. It deals with this by making more damaging weapons available at higher levels - the azimuth laser pistol you're wielding at 1st level only deals 1d4 damage, but at 9th level you can get an aphelion laser pistol dealing 3d4 (or 4d4 if Boosted by using a move action).

FWIW Starfinder does grant extra attacks as a high level thing. Both of the full BAB classes can make a third attack as part of a full attack, and that feature is a core part of how their damage ends up much higher than all the other classes.

For PF2E, I think you're right that we'll have less scaling accomplished by adding more attacks. Instead, I can imagine the full BAB classes each having better scaling on the attacks they do get. Higher accuracy (where accuracy will outpace enemy AC, giving a greater chance for crits), higher damage per hit (via things like rage or weapon specialization, maybe?), and maybe even the ability to get extra attacks via their class features in some situations.


It's likely to be similar to 4E and 5E, where you just start doing multiples of damage at higher levels. So if you are doing 1d8+4 damage, when you cross that level up threshold you are now doing 2d8+4. At least I hope so, because as much as I like Starfinder, the weapons table is stupid.


Cellion wrote:
FWIW Starfinder does grant extra attacks as a high level thing. Both of the full BAB classes can make a third attack as part of a full attack, and that feature is a core part of how their damage ends up much higher than all the other classes.

Good point. My Starfinder knowledge is highly superficial - I've only skimmed the book, seeing as it's still a bit on the crunchy side for my tastes.

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