Has there been any clarification on what ancestry” entails?
I’ve always wished there were three facets of a PC - so you could be a chelaxian dwarf fighter with features derived from each of those three.
Any chance something like that will make it into the ancestry structure?
I agree. So far, racial features also have presumed that the character grew up among their own race and so cultural aspects are part of their race. Instead if the genetic and the cultural parts were split options, you could actually make a character who did not grow up among others of her kind and still make sense in her features.
Hmm. It was just pointed out to me I made an annoying typo. Would someone mind fixing that for me at some point? Ancesrty is going to bug me!
Eh. I'm really shakey on 'ancestry.' Give that most of the pf/golarion population are really transparent expies of real world cultures, this could get unintentionally racist really fast. It seems more troublesome than 'race' in a fantasy context, since that's fairly understood to mean elves and goblins and whatnot.
It's one things to frame orcs as strong and stupid, but as soon as you apply that to varisian/katapeshi/whomever's ancestry, you've got a big problem, because those aren't just quirky fantasy folk
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I hope PF2 just drops racial/ancestral stat penalties entirely. Ultimately, I don't think they serve any valid purpose to begin with. No point in saying "you are less strong, intelligent, charming, etc. just because of who your parents were."
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Eh. I'm really shakey on 'ancestry.' Give that most of the pf/golarion population are really transparent expies of real world cultures, this could get unintentionally racist really fast. It seems more troublesome than 'race' in a fantasy context, since that's fairly understood to mean elves and goblins and whatnot.
It's one things to frame orcs as strong and stupid, but as soon as you apply that to varisian/katapeshi/whomever's ancestry, you've got a big problem, because those aren't just quirky fantasy folk
My suggestion is, in fact, going to stop that.
Ancestry would be dwarf, human, elf and so forth - including stat adjustments, ability to see in the dark, wings, whatever....
Culture would be things like skill proficiencies, languages, expertise with local weapons and such.
The point being an elf who grew up in magnimar should have a lot in common with a dwarf who grew up in magnimar. At the moment, they’ve got more in common with an elf who grew up in kyonin.
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I hope PF2 just drops racial/ancestral stat penalties entirely. Ultimately, I don't think they serve any valid purpose to begin with. No point in saying "you are less strong, intelligent, charming, etc. just because of who your parents were."
I don't really agree. Elves, dwarves, orcs etc aren't other humans, so having abilities that are better or worse than the average human is not a problem. To give a more extreme example, a rhinoceros will always be stronger than a human, just because of "who its parents were".
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I'd be happier with racial ability score penalties if you got to choose which of two ability scores to put the penalty in. So, say, a Half-Orc would get -2 to the player's choice of Intelligence or Charisma. It would go a long way to opening up more build possibilities that aren't sub-optimal, and help a touch with the racial flavor as well.
By the same token, the racial ability bonuses could be to the player's choice of two out of three options. So our hypothetical half-orc's player could choose any two of Strength, Constitution or Wisdom to get +2. But that's less important to me than just mitigating the ability penalty.
I'd be ok with removing penalties to stats if favored class bonuses were left out of core and made a setting choice instead of a ruleset choice. But then again I like dwarves sorcerers being rare.
Thanks, Sara.
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I'd think it would be nice if they took a leaf out of Rogue Trader's book and made Ancestry a combination of Race, Culture, and Upbringing.
Race would have the obvious choice of the character's race, with all the bonuses and penalties that are inherited to that race, except that it wouldn't have any of the cultural bonuses (Hatred, Special Defense Training, etc).
Culture would be about the bonuses gained from WHERE they came from, and how that location helped shaped the person they become. Examples would be things like Cheliax , Mana Wastes, Sea of Damnation, Generic Elf Village, etc.
An Example of the benefits possibly given would be:
*Choice of a free skill point (they are still there right?) between two appropriate skills.
*A Generic feat that lacks a Prerequisite (like Toughness or Endurance)
*A Trait/Culture feat (like Hatred: Goblins, Special Defense Training: Giants, Stonecunning etc.)
Upbringing would be about HOW you lived before taking the one-way-ticket-to-hell that is Adventuring. Things like: Fabulously Rich, Totally Destitute, Struggling Artist, Conman, Killer's Killer, Joe Average, Failed Student of Magic and whatever else works. (Dont know how that would work yet)
That would open up options for various backgrounds and make one's past life have both meaning and mechanical benefits.
Has there been any clarification on what ancestry” entails?
I’ve always wished there were three facets of a PC - so you could be a chelaxian dwarf fighter with features derived from each of those three.
Any chance something like that will make it into the ancestry structure?
Since Ancestry and Background are both character customization options, I suspect this will be the case. Ancestry would encompass the genetic parts of your character (such as elves getting +2 Dex), and Background the cultural (such as elves getting proficiency in longbows).
Ah thanks. I always think of background as profession, so I think I’d discounted this. That sounds like it’s exactly what I was thinking of.
Cheers.
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Do you think, though, that many gamers would just look at the boons and pick ancestry and culture (or race, culture, upbringing) based solely on Crunch?
That's my problem with the Races now.
You want to play a Cleric? Okay, here are the Races with a +2 WIS; pick one. ....Want to be an Oracle instead; here are the Races with a +2 CHA.
And you never get to see a Catfolk Cleric because of the -2 to WIS. And you never get to see an Oread Oracle because of the -2 to CHA.
That's why my group has a standard +2/+2/-2 for ALL Races-- pick one Physical Ability, one Mental Ability, and one of the other four, Player choice, for your +2/+2/-2. Human, Elf, Dwarf, Aasimar, Hobgoblin, Oread or Catfolk -- everyone gets the +2/+2/-2.
I love the idea of what you guys are describing. It's realistic. It's dynamic. It's playable. I'm just concerned that if Aasimar ancestry, for example, gets a stronger boon then every PC at the table is going to have Aasimar ancestry. Or really, I'm afraid that EVERY Wizard or Arcanist in the whole setting will have the Nex and Elf ancestry. And that EVERY Barbarian I ever see has the Kellid ancestry.
Can you see it? It makes sense that the Kellid ancestry would get some kind of Rage boon or something that dramatically affects Barbarians or some Fighters & Rangers & Skalds & Bloodragers. You wanna make a 1st Level Barbarian, why pick an Ancestry from Absalom or Taldor or Cheliax when you pick Kellid?
I think there are a lot of people who make choices like that, but it doesn’t bother me. I’ve found it works fine for everyone to play the way they like.
I usually play with my brother who crunches the numbers, “builds” characters - assigns stats and chooses his race based on synergy with his class. Whereas, I roll my stats in order, then choose class and race as a character kind of “forms”. I’m inevitably suboptimal. Then I play my Halforc Wizard and he plays his Woodelf Ranger and it works fine.
All it takes is a willingness to let the other person play the way they like - I can’t gripe about him outshining me in combat, he can’t whinge about me not being an effective member of the team.
With the issue you raise, does it really matter if most PC barbarians are keloids rather than from Absalom? That seems just the way it should be, to me.