SCHOOL enchantment (compulsion) [mind-affecting]; LEVEL bard 2, druid 3, mesmerist 2, occultist 2, psychic 2, sorcerer/wizard 3, witch 3
CASTING
CASTING TIME 1 standard action
COMPONENTS V, S
EFFECT
RANGE close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
TARGET one creature
DURATION 1 day/level
SAVING THROW Will partial; Spell Resistance yes
DESCRIPTION
You plant a revulsion in the mind of the subject, causing her to avoid an object or location. You must choose a specific object or place. A location chosen in this way can be no larger than a cube measuring 50 feet on a side. The aversion is entirely in the target’s mind, so the chosen object or location itself isn’t subject to any magical effect. If the target fails her saving throw, she can’t come within 60 feet of the chosen object or place.
She makes every reasonable effort to avoid the object of the aversion, but will not put herself in danger in order to maintain the aversion. For example, if the object of the aversion is a bridge but a forest fire is closing in and will likely kill the target, she ignores the aversion and crosses the bridge to save herself.
If the target must ignore the conditions of the aversion, she is nauseated until she is no longer violating the aversion.
If the target succeeds at her saving throw, she is instead sickened while within 60 feet of the object or place, but isn’t compelled to stay away from it.
So story time:
I played a game the other day where we were trying out some PVP stuff. I didn't really get involved, but the Mesmerist cast Aversion on the Monk (forcing her to avoid the mesmerist's cane), the Monk failed her save, and that was basically that. We were in close-quarters, so the monk had to leave the room, and couldn't even finish the quest with us because she literally couldn't be in the same building as the mesmerist.
With a duration of 1 day/level this seems like a pretty game-breaking for a 2nd level spell.
I know the game isn't really designed for PVP, but this spell seems pretty crazy.
I guess what I'm asking here is: Am I missing something?
Well, I think one thing to take note is that it is a 3rd level spell for casters with a normal spell progression. It's only a 2nd level spell for classes that have reduced spell progressions.
When I compare it with other 3rd level spells that primary casters get
it seems at first glance to be on par with Accursed Glare, Reckless Infatuation and Unadulterated Loathing.
What's interesting is that Aversion and Unadulterated Loathing are essentially the same spell. However, Aversion (thanks to the way it's worded) will actually affect a character who MAKES their save for days/level where as Unadulterated Loathing does not. In fact the latter spell actually gives conditions to allow an additional save to remove the spell effect early.
So, I agree it is probably overpowered since it's wording makes it better than similar spells at the same level as this spell.
Hold Person is also a low level spell. If the Monk failed her save against that, she could have been killed while helpless. Having to run away is less bad than that.
A possible counter to this - if the Monk had an ally, the ally could have destroyed or thrown away the cane.
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I'm going to compare to several strong spells at level 2 and 3 to see if it fits in this level of spell.
The way you use hold person is hold until right before the fighters turn if the opponent fails there is no chance for a second save.
Castigate sickens on a failed save (one round) and more severe condition but it has a saves each round.
Calm emotions can take several enemies out of the fight but requires concentration. It also negates bards, barbs and a bunch of common spells.
Haunting mist does wis damage with a cloud effect. It is also not mind-affecting.
Silence can just turn off many casters no save.
Slow is less debilitating but it effects more targets. Depending on the style of fight this can be much more potent.
Mydriatic Spontaneity same condition plus occasionally blinding, but effect on a failed save. Not mind-affecting.
Blindness is a debilitating spell that basically guarantees a loss without a cure.
Burst of radiance is aoe blindness, often damage, and targets a better save.
Dazzling Blade, Mass can blind multiple targets and is a swift action spell.
Nauseating Trail can be potent at this level when used correctly, with a high mobility familiar.
Illusory maze is a single target that keeps people out of the fight.
I would say the overall aversion is somewhere in the mix of good spells at this level. I would rather hit a few creatures with burst of radiance or glitterdust depending on the spell list.
It's a really good spell. I don't know if I'd consider it broken, but it's very, very good. Especially since it still has a useful effect if the target succeeds at their saving throw.
Well, I think one thing to take note is that it is a 3rd level spell for casters with a normal spell progression. It's only a 2nd level spell for classes that have reduced spell progressions.
When I compare it with other 3rd level spells that primary casters get
it seems at first glance to be on par with Accursed Glare, Reckless Infatuation and Unadulterated Loathing.What's interesting is that Aversion and Unadulterated Loathing are essentially the same spell. However, Aversion (thanks to the way it's worded) will actually affect a character who MAKES their save for days/level where as Unadulterated Loathing does not. In fact the latter spell actually gives conditions to allow an additional save to remove the spell effect early.
So, I agree it is probably overpowered since it's wording makes it better than similar spells at the same level as this spell.
Psychics are full-casters and get the spell at level 2.
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Well, I think one thing to take note is that it is a 3rd level spell for casters with a normal spell progression. It's only a 2nd level spell for classes that have reduced spell progressions.
Psychics are full-casters and get the spell at level 2.
On this note: prepared casters get it at spell-level 3, spontaneous casters get it at spell-level 2. This means that Full-Casters are getting it at Character Level 4 or 5.
A possible counter to this - if the Monk had an ally, the ally could have destroyed or thrown away the cane.
In this particular case, the monk's ally was the one casting the spell. My character could have intervened, but she was busy secretly stealing the mcguffin we were sent to collect without the other 2 PC's noticing (PVP for the lose). In a broader sense this sometimes helps, but since Aversion can be cast on a location it's not a reliable counter.
<Check out this other spell>
While a lot of those spells are better combat spells, they don't have the same ability to completely derail an adventure. They either don't last long enough, or they allow you to retry your save. What I'm seeing here is that a PC getting hit with this spell is now unable to participate in the adventure. The only 2 spells mentioned that seemed like they had the same effect are:
ANTIPATHY - which is an 8th level spell (not available till character level 15-16), and even then only lasts for 30 hours (not the 96 hours minimum for Aversion).BLINDNESS-DEAFNESS - which I'll admit is also bonkers at this level.
As far as I can tell, a single failed save vs Aversion (or Blindness-Deafness) could remove you from an adventure, and has only 1 counter: Dispel Magic (Or Remove Blindness/Deafness). This is difficult because the earliest you can get access to Dispel Magic (or Remove Blindness/Deafness) is character level 5 - potentially 1 level later than Aversion (or Blindness-Deafness).
This spell may not be the most powerful combat spell, but it seems like it has unbelievable narrative power, especially for such a low level spell.
- Thoughts?
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From a pc perspective losing a fight has much more narrative power because you die, there is no more story. The 2 spells you cite are powerful and make a situation hard to solve for a pc but they can find a caster and have the effects removes or for adversion wait and comeback more prepared. That sucks but seems preferable to being coup de graced.
Well, I think one thing to take note is that it is a 3rd level spell for casters with a normal spell progression. It's only a 2nd level spell for classes that have reduced spell progressions.Psychics are full-casters and get the spell at level 2.On this note: prepared casters get it at spell-level 3, spontaneous casters get it at spell-level 2. This means that Full-Casters are getting it at Character Level 4 or 5.
????
aversion is a 2nd level spell for bard, psychic, mesmerist, occultist and psychic.
None of these classes get 2nd level spells until they are 4th level.
aversion is a 3rd level spell for wizard and witch
None of these classes get 3rd level spells until they are 5th level.
lastly sorcerers don't get 3rd level spells until they are 6th level.
The vast majority of spells and abilities are written around a standard paradigm - a team of adventurers, working together, fighting a variety of monsters in a series of daily encounters. The more you break away from that paradigm, the more broken the system becomes.
Aversion is written predicated on the assumption that the Monk's allies are willing to assist him with the problem.
If they are, this spell becomes inconvinient, but trivial to solve in a number of ways. The Monk could stand at range and engage the Mesmerist in battle (this isn't the Monk's strong suit, but he's expected to have allies capable of assisting). An ally could remove or destroy the cane. The Monk or his allies could burn the building down.
While the use of "prevent another party member coming near me, preventing them from completing the adventure" is a strong use in this edge case, consider that the Monk has equally powerful abilities to use to prevent the Mesmerist from adventuring. A Coup De Grace provokes a Fort save that results in death if failed. A simply successful Flurry, hitting a few times, will likely drop the Mesmerist unconscious or dying. Neither of these even require expending a spell slot. PVPing your party is pretty easy for most classes if they put their mind to it. Sleep is a 1st level spell slot that kills you if your allies use it then cut your throat. A good Sneak Attack drops most casters in a single hit. Most party members can trivially incapacitate each other if they put their minds to it.
Consider what Aversion does in a more normal tomb-raiding scenario. It's put on a room by a Baddie to prevent the PC Monk from crossing it. The Monk suffers through an inconvenient fight, then the other PCs carry him through the room against his protests. Once on the other side, he's fine. From an Enemy point of view, a PC puts it on his cane. The enemy can't engage him in melee, and so needs to engage him at range, or retreat to warn his allies. Since his lifespan is generally measured in rounds after casting hostile spells on PCs, the 1 day/level duration borders on meaningless. Does Aversion still sound broken under these more normal conditions?
what you do is cast it on their armor then the fighter needs to either go without armor for a few days or wait cause most people don't carry backup armor around with them.
Hi all, I know it's been a while. I likely won't get super involved again but I thought it was only polite to reply.
From a pc perspective losing a fight has much more narrative power because you die
This is true, and I do accept that there are stronger options even at this level. The thing I was having trouble with is the single d20 roll deciding your fate.
Take the "Hold Person + Coup de Grace" option. This requires a standard action from one person to cast the spell and a full-round action from another. The second person has to be in place for it to work (although you likely could set that up pretty easily). The coup de grace provokes AoO's so there's potential to disarm/etc the attacker if you have an ally. If you DO get coup de grace'd you could get lucky and have them roll low damage, meaning you're not dead and the fort save isn't too hard.To die to this you have to fail a will save, be away from allies, take enough damage to kill you OR fail a fort save (and if there are allies near you they can potentially save you within 1 round). There's a lot of moving parts there, it feels a lot less arbitrary than failing the single d20 roll that Aversion allows. And if your enemy doesn't get their attack off straigt away you get a new save every round.
I do admit that death is worse than being nauseated, but there are a lot more places for that to go wrong. I guess my problem isn't so much that it's overpowered, it's that you're so beholden to a single roll of the die.
The fact that aversion makes you sickened for an entire combat with no save is pretty powerful.
This isn't even something I was super upset about. Being sickened with no save IS powerful, but it doesn't have the same narrative power as nauseated/dead/etc. It does make it even stronger though.
On this note: prepared casters get it at spell-level 3, spontaneous casters get it at spell-level 2. This means that Full-Casters are getting it at Character Level 4 or 5.????
aversion is a 2nd level spell for bard, psychic, mesmerist, occultist and psychic.
None of these classes get 2nd level spells until they are 4th level.
aversion is a 3rd level spell for wizard and witch
None of these classes get 3rd level spells until they are 5th level.
lastly sorcerers don't get 3rd level spells until they are 6th level.
I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here.
Bards, mesmerists, occultists and psychics all get it at 4th level, which is what I said (Although only the psychic is a full caster).Wizards and witches get it at 5th level, which is what I said.
Sorcerers don't get it till 6th, good catch.
If there's something else I'm missing let me know.
The vast majority of spells and abilities are written around a standard paradigm
That's true, and I do realise our game was outside that paradigm. There are ways this could totally halt an adventure within that paradigm though, so - even as a rare occurrence - it still seems to higher level of power than seems appropriate.
what you do is cast it on their armor then the fighter needs to either go without armor for a few days or wait cause most people don't carry backup armor around with them.
Even worse, the fighter can't come within 60 feet of the guy carrying his armour around until you find a bag of holding (which is probably not too far off at level 4).
I honestly think I wouldn't have so much of a problem with this spell if it even gave a save 1/day to end the effect.
I honestly think I wouldn't have so much of a problem with this spell if it even gave a save 1/day to end the effect.
Actually, a better solution would be to reduce the duration to 1 hour per level. Still hugely powerful immediately but 7 hours is a lot more manageable than 7 days.
(I meant to do this as an edit but I left it too late)
I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here.
Bards, mesmerists, occultists and psychics all get it at 4th level, which is what I said (Although only the psychic is a full caster).
Wizards and witches get it at 5th level, which is what I said.
Sorcerers don't get it till 6th, good catch.
If there's something else I'm missing let me know.
I think we are in agreement now, but for clarification I was confused because there was the suggestion that the level you got it at depended on being a prepared caster vs a spontaneous caster.
In any case, my original point (which seems to be lost) was that though some classes may get it as a 2nd level spell, because those characters have a slow spell progression (except for a brief moment at level 4), the spell won't show up until 3rd level spells are a thing and for this reason it should be compared to other 3rd level spells not other 2nd level spells for purposes of determining if it is overpowered or not.
I was trying to equate normal spell progression to full caster which was a misstep on my part. Since there are classes that get 9th level spells but get their spells at a slower rate.