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There's always going to be a score that is better than the other, and another that's weaker. It doesn't bother me if someone dumps a score. Even if it's only due to classes there will be some scores that are more important than others. If the player wants to risk being ability drained to death because they dumped a score, that's on them.
PS: Several times in my GM career, I've seen people get down to 3 or less, but they get lucky and never hit 0.
I just dont understand why you guys want to punish people.Why not add options for players.Add things that can make a fighter player want to go for charisma in any build.Punishing players is never the right option.Under current rules it is quite possible to build a SAD charisma-based fighter that works well both melee and ranged.
Side benefits: he can UMD anything and out of combat he's the party face.
Desna's Shooting Star has created many silly things...
I do think there is a need to do something with ability scores. Having such disparity between them and having them cost the same is a problem.
I think Con doesn't really need much fixing, as HP has always been critical and will probably remain critical.
Int and Wis seem okay-ish too. Primary stats for a lot of casters, plus useful in saves or lots of skills. I don't see huge problems here.
Dex seems to be too important. I think if Dex to damage remains (and it should), Str to AC should become a thing. That would probably balance them enough that now you get your nimble, lightly armored combat acrobats and your hulking, greataxe smash tanks, and both work just fine.
Cha needs help. Either get rid of it or make it more universally useful. And don't try to fix it by letting certain builds use it for everything (I've got my eye on you, Oradin).
Strength to AC is already a thing, indirectly through heavy armor.
Strength to AC is already a thing, indirectly through heavy armor.not really when the class you are playing that has the super high str score cant wear even light armor with out losing class features
If it's a Monk then they should (in theory) get enough from Class Bonus + WIS to compensate.
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If it's a Monk then they should (in theory) get enough from Class Bonus + WIS to compensate.Strength to AC is already a thing, indirectly through heavy armor.not really when the class you are playing that has the super high str score cant wear even light armor with out losing class features
And Bracers of Armor, Ring of Force Shield, etc.
Under current rules it is quite possible to build a SAD charisma-based fighter that works well both melee and ranged.
?? Kerries is intrigued and wishes to learn more of this CHA-only fighter!
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I just dont understand why you guys want to punish people.Why not add options for players.Add things that can make a fighter player want to go for charisma in any build.Punishing players is never the right option.Under current rules it is quite possible to build a SAD charisma-based fighter that works well both melee and ranged.
Side benefits: he can UMD anything and out of combat he's the party face.
I said in any build.İf CHA can replace everything then you will see people dumping STR.
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I dont know about 5e but ı thought even though they had 6 saves only the ones based on CON,DEX and WIS are importnant ones.Am ı wrong?
You're not wrong.
While in theory all stats can be used for saves in 5e (such as using a Strength save to avoid being entangled), they tend to keep to the legacy for which stats are the ones used for any given spell or effect. So there are lots of Wisdom saves, and very few Charisma saves.
In my home game, charisma is how well you are liked, including by the universe. It is effectively the luck stat. If something good or bad would happen randomly to one of the PCs, they make a charisma check (highest for something good, lowest for something bad).
Needless to say, people rarely dump charisma.
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Strength to AC is already a thing, indirectly through heavy armor.not really when the class you are playing that has the super high str score cant wear even light armor with out losing class features
Poor choices do not invalidate existing options.
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I said in any build.İf CHA can replace everything then you will see people dumping STR.I just dont understand why you guys want to punish people.Why not add options for players.Add things that can make a fighter player want to go for charisma in any build.Punishing players is never the right option.Under current rules it is quite possible to build a SAD charisma-based fighter that works well both melee and ranged.
Side benefits: he can UMD anything and out of combat he's the party face.
And I provided you with an example that can do exactly that.
Yet few people choose to do so.
Not even going to touch Lore Oracles or bards following Desna.
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Ok.Can you explain how that can make people want to go for charisma in STR based builds or go for STR in a CHA based build.Maybe ı should just say what would make you not want to dump any stats in any kind of a build and please stay away from if you dump stat this "X punishment will do this x thing to you" kind of an answer.(Last part isnt for you but for anyone else Volkard.)
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Here's something of a crazy idea, but....
What if Will saves used Charisma instead of Wisdom?
Think about it. Charisma is supposed to be 'force of personality,' whereas Wisdom is 'perception and noticing things.' Now that illusions are identified with a skill check, it makes much more sense for an attempt at domination to directly assault someone's force of personality rather than how observant they are.
Wisdom doesn't fully become the new dump stat, either. While it will mean it's less valuable, it still governs the most important skill in the game.
For strength, you could simply make it so weapons you can't Finesse are simply flat-out stronger (heh) than those you can. Maybe make the weapon with the biggest crit multiplier and the highest base damage have a required strength to use it. Just a thought. Because then dex or str to damage becomes more a question of 'do I want my character to deal more damage, but be slower, or slightly less and improve my saves and initiative?'
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I'm concerned that using skills for initiative will make the initiative disparity even worse. Right now the difference between a +9 and +0 can mean the high Init character can end all combats before others get to go. With skills, it's easy to see a +20 or 30 vs a +3 and virtually assure that the high unit character will go first at all times.
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Deadalus if 2e choses that route people will start complaning about how bad the flavor they want become and ask Pazio for newer material which in time it will be where 1e is.
EDİT:I wouldnt worry about perception as initiative.I am sure people will start getting different options than wisdom(or whichver stat it depends on 2e) for Perception in time.
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The idea of low stats and high stats being in beneficial places if they're rolled but not if they're chosen will never make sense to me.
Here's something of a crazy idea, but....
What if Will saves used Charisma instead of Wisdom?Think about it. Charisma is supposed to be 'force of personality,' whereas Wisdom is 'perception and noticing things.' Now that illusions are identified with a skill check, it makes much more sense for an attempt at domination to directly assault someone's force of personality rather than how observant they are.
Wisdom doesn't fully become the new dump stat, either. While it will mean it's less valuable, it still governs the most important skill in the game.
If Charisma is the Stat for Will saves, Wisdom could be the stat for Initiative. That would help balance out Dexterity.
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Ok.Can you explain how that can make people want to go for charisma in STR based builds or go for STR in a CHA based build.Maybe ı should just say what would make you not want to dump any stats in any kind of a build and please stay away from if you dump stat this "X punishment will do this x thing to you" kind of an answer.(Last part isnt for you but for anyone else Volkard.)
Your complaint was people would dump STR for CHA, if they could.
I gave you examples.
For your new question, I would counter with a second question: What would make my INT based wizard, DEX based monk, or CON based kineticist care about STR or DEX.
Character tend to pick 1-2 stats to focus on. If you've chosen to focus on X, Y probably won't be as important beyond the general uses every stat receives.
Anyone that wants to be good at social skills or UMD cares about CHA.
Anyone that wants to wear heavy armor or wants the highest possible DPR cares about STR.
Anyone that wants high initiative/reflex save cares about DEX
Anyone that wants to survive cares about CON
Anyone that wants a lot of skills cares about INT
Anyone that wants a good perception/will save cares about WIS
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Charisma for compulsions/charms saves makes a lot of sense.
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For your new question, I would counter with a second question: What would make my INT based wizard, DEX based monk, or CON based kineticist care about STR or DEX.
Saves. Make Hold Person a STR save, and you will care about it. Make Dominate a Cha save, and yoi will care about it.
If Charisma is the Stat for Will saves, Wisdom could be the stat for Initiative. That would help balance out Dexterity.Here's something of a crazy idea, but....
What if Will saves used Charisma instead of Wisdom?Think about it. Charisma is supposed to be 'force of personality,' whereas Wisdom is 'perception and noticing things.' Now that illusions are identified with a skill check, it makes much more sense for an attempt at domination to directly assault someone's force of personality rather than how observant they are.
Wisdom doesn't fully become the new dump stat, either. While it will mean it's less valuable, it still governs the most important skill in the game.
That could work. It seems more in-line with what they're doing now anyway. As it stands, it feels like everything should be able to do one thing beyond skill bonuses/damage (casters have no need to worry about melee, and martials have no need to worry about spell DCs, so that balances out)
So maybe (maybe- still not entirely sure if I support it- just throwing things out there) we could have abilities affect the following in 2.0:
Strength: Carrying capacity, absolute highest-damage builds.
Dexterity: AC and Ref saves
Con: No skills, but HP and Fort saves
Int: Number of skill points
Wis: Initiative (and half-point for the most important skills in the game)
Cha: Will saves
With that, it means that people will not want to dump at least 4 of the six ability scores (Str and Int are still slightly weaker), as opposed to the 3 currently. It's a bit of an improvement, but what I really don't want is for everyone having to split their points between all 6 for all characters. But making most skills have something that most people want makes it a lot harder for 7/18/14/7/12/7 ability scores to work out.
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In a fit of pique that probably nobody but me cares about, what I want most from new stats is meaningful units of measure. In PF1, the only stat that had that was Strength. But what about all the others?
Great, I have a 14 Dex. How fast is that? What does that put my reaction time at? Ok, I have 20 Int. What does that put my IQ at?
I'm usually that obnoxious person that's more concerned about story than mechanics. Random numbers don't mean as much to me as being able to more accurately connect to and visualize my character and the world. Balance is less important to me than verisimilitude.
Fortitude saves = base + Con mod + Str mod
Reflex saves = base + Dex mod + Int mod
Will saves = base + Wis mod + Cha mod
Fortitude saves = base + Con mod + Str mod
Reflex saves = base + Dex mod + Int mod
Will saves = base + Wis mod + Cha mod
The only problem with doing both is this would be Wizards would be better at reflex saves than monks, and fighters would get even worse at will saves.
Its not the worst idea it just has the problem that certain classes would benefit greatly, and low-mental martials would be double penalized.
Its not exactly a bad thing, but it would also mean even taking a 9 on a stat would hurt alot more than it does today, as at least now you can tiptoe around your stats linked to saves.
That depends on how stats are determined and how many stat points you get from leveling;)
Fortitude saves = base + Con mod + Str mod
Reflex saves = base + Dex mod + Int mod
Will saves = base + Wis mod + Cha mod
what about
Fortitude = base + higher of (STR or CON)Reflex = base + higher of (DEX or WIS)
Will = base + higher of (INT or CHA)
As reflexes comes in Sensory and Motor types , DEX/WIS makes sense and its an alternative to INT/DEX, which is an already good stat synergy doubly better, as Arcueid also said.
Will based on INT/CHA still makes sense from a certain phylosofical point of view (Thomas Aquinas?)
Making Charisma more useful that all characters can benefit from it certainly looks like tricky task
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I think making each stat start at 10 and each stat increase costs 1 point instead of the current system would help characters stats out a lot, and would fix most problems while still allowing 20 point buy to be the average and 15 to be the low and 25 to be the high, it would also make things a lot easier to calculate for the point buy as every increase would just be one point
That's the Starfinder approach, but it has a couple issues.
1) It helps out SAD classes and hurts MAD classes.
2) It basically eliminates the meaning of racial bonuses, since you can just "sell" your racial bonus to get whatever stat you want to max out.
how would it hurt mad characters it would give them more points to buy higher stats in the things they need like a monk for instance could get an 18 str a 16 wis a 14 con and a 12 dex with a 20 point buy were as with a 20 point buy in pathfinder they can get an 18 str and a 13 wisdom it also doesn't eliminate racial modifiers since you would still have a cap of 18 and to get that 20 you want you still need a +2 to the statI think making each stat start at 10 and each stat increase costs 1 point instead of the current system would help characters stats out a lot, and would fix most problems while still allowing 20 point buy to be the average and 15 to be the low and 25 to be the high, it would also make things a lot easier to calculate for the point buy as every increase would just be one pointThat's the Starfinder approach, but it has a couple issues.
1) It helps out SAD classes and hurts MAD classes.
2) It basically eliminates the meaning of racial bonuses, since you can just "sell" your racial bonus to get whatever stat you want to max out.
Starfinder point buy is AFTER the racials.
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ah, well I never said put it b4 the racials, cuz that would be dumb and wouldn't actually help anything 20 points standard 1 point per ability increase then apply racials
However. Linear stats would allow SAD classes to max out the ability score they want and dump the rest. Current point buy gives you an incentive to boost up less critical stats a bit since it's so cheap compared to trying to get uber high ones in few.
how would it hurt mad characters it would give them more points to buy higher stats in the things they need like a monk for instance could get an 18 str a 16 wis a 14 con and a 12 dex with a 20 point buy were as with a 20 point buy in pathfinder they can get an 18 str and a 13 wisdom it also doesn't eliminate racial modifiers since you would still have a cap of 18 and to get that 20 you want you still need a +2 to the statI think making each stat start at 10 and each stat increase costs 1 point instead of the current system would help characters stats out a lot, and would fix most problems while still allowing 20 point buy to be the average and 15 to be the low and 25 to be the high, it would also make things a lot easier to calculate for the point buy as every increase would just be one pointThat's the Starfinder approach, but it has a couple issues.
1) It helps out SAD classes and hurts MAD classes.
2) It basically eliminates the meaning of racial bonuses, since you can just "sell" your racial bonus to get whatever stat you want to max out.
It does not hurt MAD classes, specially when you take in account that you get +2 to 4 different abilities every 5 levels.
To be clear: MAD classes are still worse than SAD classes. But the difference is lower in SF than in PF.