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... Well, old friends, we stand upon the edge of war once again. ... Out of respect, we will share our tales ...
Hail brothers!
I literally fought in the Edition Wars. It was violent and glorious.
I remember the first salvo of The Edition War, in 2007 -- it was started by "Wizards of the Coast" cancelling the magazines: ‘Dragon Magazine’ and ‘Dungeon Magazine’. And for this treason my hate for them still burns to this day.
I still boycott all WotC products and services, and have for 11 years now.
Then, with a one-two-punch WotC committed blasphemy and produced "4evil". This version fractured backward compatibility, and demanded we buy all new books again.
This caused fire to spread, and forced common men to stand and fight for their family’s lives.
Shortly after the outbreak, Paizo, quick like a kitty cat, stepped in and offered us Pathfinder 1e. It was a very sweet cherry pie. Then did the wotc fools know the error of their ways.
MBA Kung Fu mudda-fudgers... Lisa can dance! chop, chop goes the market share. chop, chop. ah hahahahahahahaaaaa.
.
Today… our potential sleeps with one eye open like a dragon in the belly of his mountain.
-----
(It was actually David who came up with "4e-vil" -- in the chat room -- but I tell everyone I game with it was coined by me.)
I literally fought in the Edition Wars. It was violent and glorious.
I remember the first salvo of The Edition War, in 2007 -- it was started by "Wizards of the Coast" cancelling...
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I think PF needed simplification, but not in terms of the mechanics. Option bloat was the biggest issue. A quick look at the direction of PF 2E makes it look like they're going in the direction of D&D 5E... simplifying the game too much for my tastes.
Yes, I know options are just options... but PF was including references to non-core options in most of their products, making it difficult to easily play the game without all the supplements.
My ideal PF would be the core rulebook, the Bestiaries, the Golarion world books, and maybe one or two "Unearthed Arcana" type expansions. Unfortunately, the reality of being a game publisher is that you have to keep coming out with new product.
This looks like it will be the final death of the d20 system, which is a shame. I think it was the ideal RPG system.
I see PF2 being similar long term with feats quickly adding up in the new edition, much like PF1 having 2-3k in feats...not my cup of tea anymore and stopped playing pathfinder.
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GURPS? Which edition of it?
I think it's still on fourth.
I liked the progressions from the Fantasy Trip to 1st edition, 2nd edition and 3rd edition. 4E got a little too focused on making formulas out of what used to be more specific abilities (or vehicles, or whatever), for my tastes. Ironically, a little too 'generic' for my tastes. :)
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*snoozes in his porch rocker*
Wake me up when the war gets interesting.
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I see PF2 being similar long term with feats quickly adding up in the new edition, much like PF1 having 2-3k in feats...not my cup of tea anymore and stopped playing pathfinder.I think PF needed simplification, but not in terms of the mechanics. Option bloat was the biggest issue. A quick look at the direction of PF 2E makes it look like they're going in the direction of D&D 5E... simplifying the game too much for my tastes.
Yes, I know options are just options... but PF was including references to non-core options in most of their products, making it difficult to easily play the game without all the supplements.
My ideal PF would be the core rulebook, the Bestiaries, the Golarion world books, and maybe one or two "Unearthed Arcana" type expansions. Unfortunately, the reality of being a game publisher is that you have to keep coming out with new product.
This looks like it will be the final death of the d20 system, which is a shame. I think it was the ideal RPG system.
5E hasn't avoided option bloat either. They tried to minimize it by having a release schedule that is measurable in geological time.
Unfortunately, setting information is folded into their APs too much, so you really don't get a lot to work with as far as their current settings. It's easier to make your own setting than to try to hunt down all of the pieces of Faerun lore that are current and guess how the rest of the setting is.
Far, far too much of 5E is third party material as well, which has always been rather dodgy with DnD.
I don't really see DnD as being a superior option at current. More like trading one set of problems for another.
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Options reaching large numbers that might induce option paralysis (I despise the term "bloat" personally, as it implies all those options are pointless or not useful) is inherent in any system that is not static and/or that relies on the sale of further material to continue to make money.
Paizo does pretty well for itself in that the majority of their funds are made off their APs, but even those introduce new options in the form of campaign traits, the occasional special feat (usually that gets reprinted in a book released around the same time or soon after), new creatures/templates/races (again, tend to be reprinted in new splatbooks to follow), and so forth.
So long as the corporate system is built on the concept of "we need new material to be printed in order to keep making money", the expanding volume of new options is going to be a thing that exists and is potentially problematic for certain players - be it either immediately or in the not-too-distant future.
The ONLY way around this would be for Paizo (or WOTC, or any other company) to switch to a completely AP-focused production platform, which would probably not work for their company. That sort of thing is probably a better focus for smaller 3rd-party groups and/or individuals. And some of those might be better off with a crowdfunded core platform such as Kickstarter or Patreon. But that sort of thing - as a primary funds source - is not likely to work for a company the size of Paizo, much less for one like WOTC.
I use the term "bloat" because once option paralysis sets in, many of those options truly do become pointless or not useful. Also, if those options are almost never used, the fact they might be useful doesn't overshadow that they have become pointless inclusions.
The concept of a "feat tax" reflects bloat. If the only reason a feat is useful is that it is a prerequisite for another feat, then that feat is a waste of space.
Stop and take a look at spells as well. How many spells are there that you don't ever see anyone using? Why bother having them?
Do the same with archetypes, alternative racials, certain skills, magic items, regular items, and even monsters.
A system becomes bloated when it has a large percentage of options that are never utilized. At that point, the difference between "useful but never chosen" and "not useful" becomes academic.
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We'll have to agree to disagree. There is nothing good to be had going down this road.
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Stuff.
This will not be fixed by a new edition. As soon as a company puts out three option, two of them become "bloat" to someone. No game, of any edition, is perfect, ever.
PF2 by necessity will have new ways of doing things. There will be blind spots in the design of the game. There will be flaws. Some of it will be worked out by the playtest, some will be championed as features not flaws, and some will simply slip through the cracks of time constraints and lack of focus.
The production schedule of a game determines how much "bloat" it contains.
Paizo has a pretty "healthy" production schedule and must maintain such in order continue to feed the mouths under its roof. "Bloat" will continue to grow with each product published.
Right now I'm still holding off judging stuff until I see the first beta in my heands.
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Right now I'm still holding off judging stuff until I see the first beta in my heands.
Agreed.
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Right now I'm still holding off judging stuff until I see the first beta in my hands.
Yeah, as angry as it gets now, just wait until they release the beta fish into the playtest threads. Many Grognards and Optimizers will know what it is to be roasted in the depths of a Dire Beta that day, I can tell you!
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Right now I'm still holding off judging stuff until I see the first beta in my hands.Yeah, as angry as it gets now, just wait until they release the beta fish into the playtest threads. Many Grognards and Optimizers will know what it is to be roasted in the depths of a Dire Beta that day, I can tell you!
Grognards. Why did it have to be grognards?
Grognards, the bane of all things that aren't neck beards.
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ALWAYS WELCOME ON THE FOREDECK OF THE I.G.S. FUNBREAKER!
♫ Grognard gamers have no chill,
Heave away, heave away,
Change for them's a bitter pill,
Editiooooooons be warring. ♫
Chorus;
♫ Heave away my gaaaaaaatekeeping boys,
Heave away, heave away
Heave away and make a lot of noise,
Editioooooooons be warring! ♫
♫ Grognard gamers just can't stand,
Heave away, heave away,
Any change to existing plans,
Editiooooooooons be warring! ♫
<Chorus>
♫ Grognard gamers kneecap fun,
heave away, heave away
"This is how it's always done!"
Editioooooooooooons be warring! ♫
<Chorus>
♫ Grognard gamers seem quite blind,
Heave away, heave away
We mostly play games to unwind!
Editioooooooons be warring! ♫
<Chorus>
♫ Grognard gamers screech quite loud,
Heave away, heave away
A fairly static, tiresome crowd!
Editooooooooooooooons be warring! ♫
I'm a conscientious objector this all this warrin and a fightin! can't we all just get along?
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Honestly, this whole "New Edition" thing has been kinda surreal for me. Pathfinder was the second session of a tabletop game I played ever, I got really into PFS for a good chunk of middle and high school, got more books than I could comfortably fit into a medium-sized suitcase, and now there's a new edition. My dad played 1st Edition D&D when it was new, and I've taken inordinate amounts of joy in going through all of his old gaming stuff, listening to his stories, and I'm realizing that eventually whatever kids I have will probably end up doing the same thing with me.
So that's my current thoughts on Pathfinder Second Edition: it makes me feel old. I'm probably not going to buy it for a while, but that's more because I'm a broke college student and everyone on campus plays Dungeons and Dragons anyway, so it's kinda moot.
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Honestly, this whole "New Edition" thing has been kinda surreal for me. Pathfinder was the second session of a tabletop game I played ever, I got really into PFS for a good chunk of middle and high school, got more books than I could comfortably fit into a medium-sized suitcase, and now there's a new edition. My dad played 1st Edition D&D when it was new, and I've taken inordinate amounts of joy in going through all of his old gaming stuff, listening to his stories, and I'm realizing that eventually whatever kids I have will probably end up doing the same thing with me.
So that's my current thoughts on Pathfinder Second Edition: it makes me feel old. I'm probably not going to buy it for a while, but that's more because I'm a broke college student and everyone on campus plays Dungeons and Dragons anyway, so it's kinda moot.
Fortunately the playtest materials will be freebie PDFs come 2nd August. I suspect that they will continue to offer free access to the game via the equivalent of the PRD online. So long as you have internet access, you should be able to play PF2e until you are no longer a broke college student. :D
Eh, I remember the first Edition War, back in 1987, but we didn't call it that back then. AD&D 2e was embraced by some and derided by the "purists." My group embraced the change and thought of it as a real improvement.
The systems were so close that it was easy to mix-and-match. 2e introduced specialist wizards and Class Kits (a direct precursor to PFRPG's archetypes).
My initial assessment of the preview info is mixed, but I pre-ordered the playtest rulebook and module, so I'm keeping an open mind.
Of course, it's a moot point for my group, as we switched to Dungeon World and Fate as our systems of choice two years ago.
If either side require our droopy services, we are available for only 12 guineas a week, plus fodder and pies.
Is it of the being of the evil pie? Mmmm... pie.
*sings* Am I evil? Yes I am! Am I a neck beard? Probably not.
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When fighting the Edition Wars, I've found that the only way to win is not to play.
My group has one, and only one consideration when a new edition comes out: "What does it COST?" If the number is too high, we stick with the current edition.
Considering Paizo has repeatedly stated that the rules for PF2 will be posted on an open, free PRD like PF1's rules are, technically you can play the game for nothing.
My group has one, and only one consideration when a new edition comes out: "What does it COST?" If the number is too high, we stick with the current edition.Considering Paizo has repeatedly stated that the rules for PF2 will be posted on an open, free PRD like PF1's rules are, technically you can play the game for nothing.
Clarification, just to avoid potential confusion: The PLAYTEST rules will be free. The official launch certainly won't be.
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Clarification, just to avoid potential confusion: The PLAYTEST rules will be free. The official launch certainly won't be.My group has one, and only one consideration when a new edition comes out: "What does it COST?" If the number is too high, we stick with the current edition.Considering Paizo has repeatedly stated that the rules for PF2 will be posted on an open, free PRD like PF1's rules are, technically you can play the game for nothing.
No, they will certainly post the rules to the PRD the same as PF1. Maybe not by launch, but I certainly hope so.
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No, they will certainly post the rules to the PRD the same as PF1. Maybe not by launch, but I certainly hope so.Clarification, just to avoid potential confusion: The PLAYTEST rules will be free. The official launch certainly won't be.My group has one, and only one consideration when a new edition comes out: "What does it COST?" If the number is too high, we stick with the current edition.Considering Paizo has repeatedly stated that the rules for PF2 will be posted on an open, free PRD like PF1's rules are, technically you can play the game for nothing.
If they're not a launch, I expect the rules to be on their site pretty darn close. Paizo is going to want people to look up X rules on their site while waiting for Pathfinder Society games at GenCon. The only way that is going to work is if they are ready for launch and on their site come day 1. But you never know if asking for that is too much.
Oh, PRD, yes. I misread it as PDF and was remembering the argument I had with someone at my local game store about the playtest.
New edition, you say?
*licks lips*
<Aged Wizard wakes up in his rocking chair>
Huh?? Whazzat?!? New Edition? Ain't no such thang! Consarn kids and their new-fangled ways of messing stuff up. THACO is here to stay baybay!
<Wizard ducks and covers, chortling only slightly maniacally>
<Aged Wizard wakes up in his rocking chair>
Huh?? Whazzat?!? New Edition? Ain't no such thang! Consarn kids and their new-fangled ways of messing stuff up. THACO is here to stay baybay!
<Wizard ducks and covers, chortling only slightly maniacally>
Bah. Never liked that new-fangled THAC0 thing.
Why can't these kids just stick with the tables like Gygax intended?
Tables-schmables! We should have stuck with the old Chainmail rules cobbled together in rough fashion the way God and Dave Arneson intended!
:P
All I know is Amber Diceless is still a thing for people.
thejeff,
Eh. I stick with dice. Even when they hate me, I still love them.
Pssh you new fangled kids and your diceless role playing why in my days we just used shadow puppets against a camp fire!
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You guys had FIRE???
Does that mean Amber is "old school"?
Anything that had a shiny new ad for me to read when I was first getting into Dragon Magazine is definitely "old school" at this point.
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I had to triangle-up the Playtest forums just now to leave unopened again until August. [RANT SELF-CENSORED]
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Is that a new blog!?! Someone said they'd have a new blog today!!
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This has happened before, it will happen again.
This has happened before, it will happen again.
Hopefully someone in that squabbling cacophony has a plan this time.