Get Off My Lawn - The "Official" Old-Timer Thread for Veterans of the Last Edition War

[Fireman Gob Montag]

Tarondor wrote:

I tried to put on my old armor from the Edition Wars. It doesn’t fit anymore.

I'll get Lancel to fetch the breastplate stretcher.

---

And if anyone needs their old/current/future/theoretical-of-straw books professionally burned, please stack them over here and I'll get right on it.

[Coridan]

spinningdice wrote:

Amusingly enough I prefer 5e over prior editions/pathfinder. But I play more 2e than any other edition.

Pathfinder is... fatiguing I did love 3/.5 and pathfinder but now I get stricken with analysis paralysis every level up. There is simply too much stuff out there and in all honesty a good 70% of it is pretty worthless (at least to me).
Pathfinder has come to feel like you have to plan your character out from level 1 to the expected end with it's combination of gatekeeper feats, stringent requirements for options and sheer number of options, I like more organic growth.

New editions don't fix that problem, they only reset it. Like a hoarder who has people come in and clean their house but doesn't do anything to change their behavior.

[Brother Fen]

Sara Marie wrote:

Brother Fen wrote:

Is this where we throw our Pathfinder FIRST EDITION books on the bonfire?

Nope. This is the thread where you can talk about the things you love about Pathfinder before the Playtest of the second edition. You can discuss why you think you'll stick to the first edition. But let's not fall into the trap of fighting about our hobby or insulting the ways that other people may enjoy playing.

I'm a bit at a loss at to why this thread seems to be openly mocking anyone that is not pleased with having their edition suddenly scrapped. I don't appreciate that sentiment just because I prefer the game - as is - and don't want to buy all of my books over again.

I'm going to put myself on hiatus for a bit and let you all have at it.

[TriOmegaZero]

Hythlodeus wrote:

wait, are you the General or the CMO of that army?

Both, and so many other roles.

[Orthos]

Brother Fen wrote:

Sara Marie wrote:

Brother Fen wrote:

Is this where we throw our Pathfinder FIRST EDITION books on the bonfire?

Nope. This is the thread where you can talk about the things you love about Pathfinder before the Playtest of the second edition. You can discuss why you think you'll stick to the first edition. But let's not fall into the trap of fighting about our hobby or insulting the ways that other people may enjoy playing.

I'm a bit at a loss at to why this thread seems to be openly mocking anyone that is not pleased with having their edition suddenly scrapped. I don't appreciate that sentiment just because I prefer the game - as is - and don't want to buy all of my books over again.

I'm going to put myself on hiatus for a bit and let you all have at it.

Because everything needs to be a debate these days. Leaving people to their own opinions with those who share them is an "echo chamber" and that's bad, or so common wisdom of the day goes. So any conversation that appears too one sided must be immediately and overwhelmingly challenged.

Blargh. I think you have the right idea, though. Don't have the energy to spend my days in debates hour upon hour anymore.

[TriOmegaZero]

Christopher Dudley wrote:

Some of my players will update, and some won't. What can you do? It's a two-system party.

I'll be running PFS in both systems until there ain't no more players. And I know the home group has plenty of APs to finish in 1E.

[Knight_Hammer]

Something I loved about Pathfinder First Edition was the compatibility with 3.5 D&D. My group jumped in without skipping a beat and it was interesting to see how Paizo went about fixing the problems compared to our own houserules document (we were hit and miss). With very little effort monsters and classes could be ported and it felt like my investment in D&D 3.5 was well worth it, whereas WotC was busy burning down their campaign settings and doing their best to invalidate everything to get us to buy it all again (that was my opinion at the time).

Some may say the Pathfinder is bloated now, but in 10 years they didn't even come close to burying us in playbook like 3.5. Paizo is straight with their customers and have always provided excellent services. My group is planning to test when the Beta comes out, but without that easy backwards compatibility I probably won't a supporter of anything but adventures, where you just swap out monsters and loot, and what GM doesn't love rolling loot for their players?

[Davor Firetusk]

Still processing, there are some reasons for hope that org play will help support both for awhile to come yet. I'll say it again arguing that the solution to 'bloat' is more rules [which is what a new edition is] is fundamentally ironic. I started on Red box, got plenty of 2E stuff and refused to get into 3E because of my big pile of books until 3.5 came-out. Maybe in another 25 years when I'm ready to retire I can get back into homebrewing but as others have said finding folks to play and overall time are the big issues, so if there is an unproductive splitting of the player base...

[Davor Firetusk]

Second note my wife still gives me a hard time 6 years later since when I started PFS I told her it was great, not like D&D at all you just needed the Core rulebook. Needless to say my shelf is as full as everyone else's now.

[thejeff]

Steel_Wind wrote:

Knight_Hammer wrote:

*Stands before the shelves of D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder 1st Edition books*

Well, old friends, we stand upon the edge of war once again. Ten years of peace and prosperity in our realm since Paizo saved us from defeat at the hands of 4th Edition. Much has changed since then. We have grown, we have prospered, we have flourished. We watched 4th Edition burn itself down from the safety of Paizo's walls. We watched with hope as 5th Edition launched and grew.

We knew peace for so long, we forgot what we fought for in the first place. But I did not, and it nears time for this old soldier to don his armor once more and put the enemy to the sword. Only this time the enemy is from within rather than without. Comrade against comrade, brother against brother.

Out of respect, we will share our tales of grand adventure and share an ale before the 2nd Edition Beta hits and we become locked in combat over game systems and rules.

Hail brothers!

Time for One last drink before the War?

There is real trepidation here. in the playtest podcast, when skills appeared to be so simplified, CMB/CMD removed and the wholesale rework of magic items still to be explained (only threatened so far), we may well be in for some Old time, Come-to-Jesus, Edition Warring.

I don't know where this all sits just yet; so I don't know where >>I<< sit just yet.

So yes, One more drink before the War.

Of course there will be Edition Warring. Any new edition would spark it.

Too many changes and people will scream that they can't use all their old material anymore. Stay compatible and other people will scream about it just being a rerelease to grab money.

It was inevitable. They want to make a new, better game. Lets see what they do. Obviously they won't be able to please everybody, but hopefully they can put out something good.

[Maelstrom Tapewyrm]

AHHHH! Unexpected interforum teleport! {throws self around like ST:TOS bridge crewmember}

[Storyteller Shadow]

Oh man I remember the Edition Wars on the old WoTC boards when 3.5 moved to 4E. UGLY!

Eventually I'll probably pick up the 2ED book just to see if there is anything I like about it but I would stay with Pathfinder 1E rules for the games I run here on the boards.

I run a 3.5/Pathfinder hybrid on Table Top.

Eventually I'll move on to D&D Next [I mean 5E :-)], once they release 6th Edition.

The older I get the less work I want to do prepping so I think 5E is suitable for my eventual desire to move in that direction.

Good luck with your Edition Wars in the meantime :-)

[Cole Deschain]

Friggin' kids these days... I edition warred with the best of them... resisting the advent of 3rd edition D&D with a sort of white-knuckled shrieking resistance to change.

Wish I'd listened to the crusty old salts who'd seen it before... from basic bare-bones D&D to AD&D, to the advent of AD&D second edition...

When 3.5 hit, I had already caved. For a brief, horrid time, I had the core books for AD&D 2nd, 3rd, and 3.5 on my shelf. And then along came 4th, and I picked that up- as well as Pathfinder. Ah, for the heady days, ten years gone, when I was coasting through my mid-20s on a cloud of spare time and just enough pocket money to be a total, 'buy-it-all" fool.

[Sharoth]

I for one wish Paizo success with Pathfinder 2.0. I will even buy a copy, if only to say thank you for alowing me to be on the forums and keeping this a good place to keep coming to.

Edit - Who knows, I might even like it.

[Feros]

God, the edition wars...so much blood on the threads...

If PF2 feels and works like a less clunky PF1, I expect skirmishing at best. If its a 3.5 to 4e departure...it could get ugly.

Right now I'm delighted to get in on the initial play-test—I went to 4th for a while and missed the play-test altogether—and am also delighted by the fact that I'll have all the hardcovers of PF1 complete soon. It's a solid game and I have enough campaigns for it to last until I'm in my late 60s, so if PF2 doesn't work for me, no big.

[Sissyl]

I dunno. I trust Paizo to say "2nd ed is awesome, check it out!" instead of "Only morons would still play 1st ed!". That's going to work wonders for avoiding drawn battle lines.

[TriOmegaZero]

It's too late. Battle lines have already been drawn.

[thejeff]

TriOmegaZero wrote:

It's too late. Battle lines have already been drawn.

Battle lines were drawn in discussions about the possibility of a new edition years ago.

[Freehold DM]

Sissyl wrote:

I dunno. I trust Paizo to say "2nd ed is awesome, check it out!" instead of "Only morons would still play 1st ed!". That's going to work wonders for avoiding drawn battle lines.

very, very well said.

[Sissyl]

Freehold DM wrote:

Sissyl wrote:

I dunno. I trust Paizo to say "2nd ed is awesome, check it out!" instead of "Only morons would still play 1st ed!". That's going to work wonders for avoiding drawn battle lines.

very, very well said.

Thank you.

[TriOmegaZero]

thejeff wrote:

TriOmegaZero wrote:

It's too late. Battle lines have already been drawn.

Battle lines were drawn in discussions about the possibility of a new edition years ago.

The possibility, yes. Apparently some have changed their minds in the intervening years.

[thejeff]

TriOmegaZero wrote:

thejeff wrote:

TriOmegaZero wrote:

It's too late. Battle lines have already been drawn.

Battle lines were drawn in discussions about the possibility of a new edition years ago.

The possibility, yes. Apparently some have changed their minds in the intervening years.

? Not sure what you mean?

Some individuals might have switched sides of course. Or backed away from or joined the lines with the passing of time.

But the basic arguments seem very similar to what we've seen in every thread about the possibility for years. (Plus bits about specifics they've revealed of course.)

[Andrew Crossett]

Storyteller Shadow wrote:

Eventually I'll move on to D&D Next [I mean 5E :-)], once they release 6th Edition.

I don't think there will ever be a 6th edition of D&D... at least not a tabletop one. I get the idea that 5E was meant to be "D&D Forever"... a system that Hasbro could use to hang their D&D related IP (Dragonlance, Forgotten Realms, etc.) on, with licensing being far more important than game sales. I think that's why they haven't supported the system very much, though its unexpected success may lead them to re-think that.

[Thomas Seitz]

I love Hybrid classes and race guides. :p

[thejeff]

Andrew Crossett wrote:

Storyteller Shadow wrote:

Eventually I'll move on to D&D Next [I mean 5E :-)], once they release 6th Edition.

I don't think there will ever be a 6th edition of D&D... at least not a tabletop one. I get the idea that 5E was meant to be "D&D Forever"... a system that Hasbro could use to hang their D&D related IP (Dragonlance, Forgotten Realms, etc.) on, with licensing being far more important than game sales. I think that's why they haven't supported the system very much, though its unexpected success may lead them to re-think that.

There will be another edition, unless the market dies completely. Even if they don't intend it now.

[Athaleon]

Brother Fen wrote:

Bloat is a pejorative term used by gamers to manipulate perceptions.

Pathfinder mechanics are more like battalions of an army moved into position as needed. There is no bloat.

In this example, out of 2000 soldiers (feats) 1900 of them are actually made of clay.

[baron arem heshvaun]

Sebastian wrote:

Greetings, friends. It is me, your magical pony friend, back here at Paizo

Holy So Cal Grognards! Sebastian!

Wow! Just wow!

You are like the Herald of the New Edition Wars {TM}.

With your Return ... could I hope for ... hope for the mere chance of being named on your hounored ENEMIES LIST?

[baron arem heshvaun]

TriOmegaZero wrote:

It's too late. Battle lines have already been drawn.

I’m on whichever Side that has The Emperor/Supreme Leader/Republican Tax Cuts and a Death Star.

[Cranky McOldGuy]

shakes fist

G++%+#n whippersnappers!!!

[Set]

TriOmegaZero wrote:

It's too late. Battle lines have already been drawn.

I hope I didn't dig up this hatchet for nothing!

Now which side am I on again?

Because I'm prepared to vehemently defend it!

[Terrinam]

I want to see the release schedule before I pick my side.

If it's going the way of 5E/Starfinder, then no thanks. If it stays the way of Pathfinder, then I'll give it a fair shot.

[Mike J]

All you crazy kids can sign on for that new-fangled 2E nonsense with its THAC0 and such. I’ll continue playing 1E where Gary(TM) will have rocks fall on us, we all die, and go to bed with dead characters. Like back in the good ole days.

[Burning Straw man]

Did someone say Edition wars? Oh I love a good war ... Ahhhhh someone lit me on fire.

[Bickering Partisans]

Oh dear old chap, you seem to be having a bit of a smolder there.

[Thomas Seitz]

*sends in Kostchtchie to cool things down*

[Treppa]

I think I shall sit on a hill with a parasol, overlooking the battlefield while servants bring me mimosas. Lots of mimosas.

[Thomas Seitz]

I prefer to run through the Hills with Highway to Hell blazing and then jump into my fire engine red 1968 Ford Mustang, have the Four Horsemen ride along side me, and every demon in the Abyss behind me with the Four Horsemen by Metallica (live!) along with me.

[Trigger Loaded]

I've been around for a few edition wars in my time. Even in the early days of the internet, I saw massive debates on the shift to third edition. Most everyone was ecstatic, but there were certainly the old grognards who didn't apprciate the change, thinking it was a cash grab by WotC after they took over TSR. I still chuckle at those who complained about Dwarven Paladins ruining the lore, and those who hated the idea of a monk doing anything with piddly little fists to a hulking dude in plate mail.

Don't remember too much anger at the transition from 3.0 to 3.5. Most groups I was with saw it as a necessary change, fine-tuning the rules. I'm sure there were people who despised the change, but I don't remember too much outrage.

Ahh, but 3rd to 4th. That's the one people remember, since that was how Paizo conceived of Pathfinder. We owe the existence of the game we play now to WotC deciding to try and reinvent the wheel. I bought the core book, I tried it out, and decided the game wasn't for me. I'm not the sort to hurl too much shade at the game since, in a world with tabletop games such as FATAL, Racial Holy War, and HYBRID, I have a hard time condeming things as being genuinely awful, instead of just 'different tastes.'

Despite that, I still agreed with those who said it was too gamist, and got swept up in the battle, engaging in heated debates with those on the pro-4th edition side who found all the arguments silly. Now that was a battle. Artillery such as "Grognard" and "Verisimillitude" cratered the ground.

I'm on the side who think that Pathfinder needs a reboot. I have heard it said that they were afraid of changing too much from 3.5 when they first made Pathfinder. Well, now it's time to make a clean break, and a better game. Will they succeed? I fully intend to buy the core rulebook to find out (I'll likely just download the beta test PDF. Not that eager to spend.) and give it a go. Maybe it'll be what I want, and the game will go on. Maybe not, and I'll find 5th edition easier to work with. Time will tell.

But if you don't want to change, if you look at your racks of books and have no interest in starting fresh, that is perfectly all right. I raise a glass to you old guard who will not abandon a game you love. I emphathize, given my love of old Nintendo, Super Nintendo, and Sega Genesis games. Those are still classics that are just as entertaining then as they are now, so game on, whatever edition you desire.

[Thomas Seitz]

I don't think I need a change...but I'm not against having one as much as I was 3.5 to 4th...

[Dale McCoy Jr]

Back in my day, our Edition Wars were over things like how every kind of attack a fighter made had its own name. We fought to preserve something we use to call "stabbing," instead of "white wyrm strike." We fought because we wanted to grab a troll if we darn well wanted to. We fought to keep magic missile from just doing damage because that is what it is supposed to do. Magic is supposed to progress every other level for wizards and clerics, not every level. We won that war. That edition is long dead and buried never to be spoken of again.

This new fangled edition, a fighter's default attack is stabbing something. It lets you triple move or make 3 attacks at first level. Well that doesn't seem so bad. It has a new spell level every other level, just the way magic is supposed to work. We always knew that old edition we was playin' had some issues and it is about darn tootin' time they get fixed.

[Feros]

Treppa wrote:

I think I shall sit on a hill with a parasol, overlooking the battlefield while servants bring me mimosas. Lots of mimosas.

With orange garnish or without?

[Treppa]

Feros wrote:

Treppa wrote:

I think I shall sit on a hill with a parasol, overlooking the battlefield while servants bring me mimosas. Lots of mimosas.

With orange garnish or without?

Oh with, quite, dear sir. Anything else would be gauche. I shall build a pile of orange garnish while the edition combatants build a pile of skulls.

[Tequila Sunrise]

thejeff wrote:

Andrew Crossett wrote:

Storyteller Shadow wrote:

Eventually I'll move on to D&D Next [I mean 5E :-)], once they release 6th Edition.

I don't think there will ever be a 6th edition of D&D... at least not a tabletop one. I get the idea that 5E was meant to be "D&D Forever"... a system that Hasbro could use to hang their D&D related IP (Dragonlance, Forgotten Realms, etc.) on, with licensing being far more important than game sales. I think that's why they haven't supported the system very much, though its unexpected success may lead them to re-think that.

There will be another edition, unless the market dies completely. Even if they don't intend it now.

QFT. The idea of some idyllic evergreen game is a dream that game companies like to flirt with now and again because it has such a strong appeal to a segment of the rpg population. But for whatever logistical reason, the way of the industry is a new edition every few years or business death.

It's just a question of when and how.

[Terrinam]

Tequila Sunrise wrote:

thejeff wrote:

Andrew Crossett wrote:

Storyteller Shadow wrote:

Eventually I'll move on to D&D Next [I mean 5E :-)], once they release 6th Edition.

I don't think there will ever be a 6th edition of D&D... at least not a tabletop one. I get the idea that 5E was meant to be "D&D Forever"... a system that Hasbro could use to hang their D&D related IP (Dragonlance, Forgotten Realms, etc.) on, with licensing being far more important than game sales. I think that's why they haven't supported the system very much, though its unexpected success may lead them to re-think that.

There will be another edition, unless the market dies completely. Even if they don't intend it now.

QFT. The idea of some idyllic evergreen game is a dream that game companies like to flirt with now and again because it has such a strong appeal to a segment of the rpg population. But for whatever logistical reason, the way of the industry is a new edition every few years or business death.

It's just a question of when and how.

Take one good, hard look at the fanbase for GURPS to see why.

[Thomas Seitz]

Right now I'll settle for rolling my d20s until I die.

[Sissyl]

GURPS? Which edition of it?

[Linky Longears]

The title of this thread keeps making me want to link to Veteran of the Psychic Wars. I can resist it no longer, so I just have, as that's what Linky dinky do.

[Orthos]

As if you NEED an excuse to link BOC?

[Thomas Seitz]

Linky,

Here I thought you'd link it to Rob Zombie, but BOC is better. :)

[Tarondor]

Hawkwind did it first!