Hello everyone, i'm gonna run the first part of Deads Suns AP, next Monday. I finished reading the whole AP 1 and i think it's really good however I've got some problems with the ''scaling''and i think it ruins the narrative.This might just me, but here's some of the thing i got problems with.
So here's my problems so far:
The AP assume that only the PC and the two gangs will be fighting. However,the dock is supposedly filled with ''Kasatha Mystic and Imposing Vesk Mercenary''.
Wouldn't these guys do something about it,like shooting back or something?
Where's the Security, you're telling me there's no armed security at a docking area in the commercial center of the solar system?
Why did the two gangs only came up with 3 guys each?
The''Most notorious gangs in Absalom station'' are lead by cr 1 leader?
The ''Most notorious gangs in Absalom station'' only have to 7-10 members (Including leaders)each?
If previous statement is true these gangs are the ''most notorious gangs in Absalom station, why didn't they get arrested? They can't even hold their own against lvl 1 PC.
I do get that players get to feels like hero, and it's cool and all, but i think things get big at bit fast with the gangs for lvl 1 PCs.
I don't know, maybe it's just me.
The rest of the AP is great however!
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Mechanically, it's a complicated enough fight without flavor text NPCs trying to join in.
If you read the post-battle developments, security does arrive, too late to help. If you want an armed guard in the docking bay it again gets into the above issue of too many NPCs in the firefight.
The CR1 leader is somewhat unbelievable, yes. But a necessary evil if L1 PCs are to take them down.
I assumed you only ever saw a given "squad" of each gang at a time, and that other members are on other jobs at any given time in the AP.
Gangs/mafia are not arrested for a lot of complicated reasons in the real world. One of them being on a contract for a "reputable" mining corporation certainly doesn't help in that regard.
I guess if the gang warfare section bothers you that much, you can start your PCs at level 2 as established Starfinders heading out to the drift rock for Ambassador Nor. Depends how much L1 play you think is needed.
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Remember that the Level 21C are there effectively opposing the Kings, so numbers they would commit would likely be low. I ran the encounter that the Kings members are there to be "blooded" in committing a murder.
When things kick off I only had shuttle passengers and dock crew in attendance rather than a crowd of well heeled mercs and freebooters. As such mostly all of them ran for the exits or sought cover when shots were fired.
As Arutema mentions security does turn up. Again I had Absalom Traffic Control convey warnings that security was inbound and authorised to terminate any threats. Clock was ticking and my group ran at the same time as the surviving gangers.
The AP notes that Kings leadership changed a few months ago:
Ferani ascended to the leadership of the Downside Kings only a few months ago by savagely killing the gang’s former boss, but she has consolidated her power quickly and violently, and most of the Kings’ rank-and-file members regard her with a mixture of respect and fear.
As such I'm reading she's thinned the ranks and its just the hardliners and lackeys that survived. Makes sense they are down in numbers... Remember she and Hatchburster are a CR3 encounter if faced together - that's a very decent challenge...
Just my 2 bits worth.
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Mechanically, it's a complicated enough fight without flavor text NPCs trying to join in.
If you read the post-battle developments, security does arrive, too late to help. If you want an armed guard in the docking bay it again gets into the above issue of too many NPCs in the firefight.
Yeah, the fight look already kind of convoluted, but maybe i'll try to add some narrative element to it to add to the confusion, like random mercs shooting each others. Which could explain why the one or two security guard armed with pistol can't intervene, it's out of hand. And then maybe i can make the police arrive later to make everyone drop weapon and to arrest everybody that partake in the shooting, Pc included (which will get a Free ''out of jail card'' thanks to the witnesses and maybe diplomacy checks.
I assumed you only ever saw a given "squad" of each gang at a time, and that other members are on other jobs at any given time in the AP.
I guess i'll go with that explanation, maybe i can add an encounter against Downside kings gang member outside of their Bar, just to add to the feeling of the gang being numerous and dangerous.
Gangs/mafia are not arrested for a lot of complicated reasons in the real world. One of them being on a contract for a "reputable" mining corporation certainly doesn't help in that regard.
Yeah I guess that explains it a little.
I guess if the gang warfare section bothers you that much, you can start your PCs at level 2 as established Starfinders heading out to the drift rock for Ambassador Nor. Depends how much L1 play you think is needed.
It doesn't bother me THAT much, but i think some things make little sense. I guess i can also just roll with it, because i do think the narrative and the investigation is pretty cool. Anyway, thanks for your input!
I'd answer to your reply Black Dow, but i'm out of time right now, i'll answer later, thanks for your input!
Personally I handled the situation of the Gangs and leaders by simply saying that there are many captains with in the gangs each leading its own local chapter and the PCs were dealing with just the local chapters and there current captain. The overall bosses would be much higher lvl and beyond the PCs reach at this time so this allows them to punch the gangs in the nose to some degree but the gangs are still very much active with far more resources and multiple chapters each with there own captain.
As far as station security, the game states that violence in public areas such as these are rare and as such there would be security but they wouldn't have a physical presence in ever single docking bay.. I mean this is docking bay 94 after all meaning there are at least 93 others and likely a LOT more than that so not being able to physically cover each one with security is not really that unbelievable.
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Answer to Black Dow:
Remember that the Level 21C are there effectively opposing the Kings, so numbers they would commit would likely be low. I ran the encounter that the Kings members are there to be "blooded" in committing a murder.
Yeah that could explain why they wouldn't send the whole gang there, but i mean 7-10 members at most, including leader, is a bit low for a gang that Nor acknowledge as ''the most notorious gang in Absalom station''. It's at best double the number of PCs, which is a bit low. I do like your idea that the King's member are there as some sort of trial, i think it's clever.
When things kick off I only had shuttle passengers and dock crew in attendance rather than a crowd of well heeled mercs and freebooters. As such mostly all of them ran for the exits or sought cover when shots were fired.
That would explain why nobody else retaliate, it's not a bad idea.
As Arutema mentions security does turn up. Again I had Absalom Traffic Control convey warnings that security was inbound and authorised to terminate any threats. Clock was ticking and my group ran at the same time as the surviving gangers.
Yeah that's probably how i'm gonna run it too, security is gonna arrive at maximum 2 minutes later (20 rounds) so if the combat drag out for too long, the police or security is gonna intervene. I still think i'll add a basic security guard or two with some pistol that won't do much in the chaos beside calling backups
The AP notes that Kings leadership changed a few months ago:
Ferani ascended to the leadership of the Downside Kings only a few months ago by savagely killing the gang’s former boss, but she has consolidated her power quickly and violently, and most of the Kings’ rank-and-file members regard her with a mixture of respect and fear.
As such I'm reading she's thinned the ranks and its just the hardliners and lackeys that survived. Makes sense they are down in numbers... Remember she and Hatchburster are a CR3 encounter if faced together - that's a very decent challenge...
Just my 2 bits worth.
Yeah, i woudn't mind if it were some low key gang, but for the ''most notorious gang in Absalom Station'' i think it's still too weak. I think Vexies suggestion regarding that is pretty good, so i'll probably go with that.
Thanks for your thoughts though!
Personally I handled the situation of the Gangs and leaders by simply saying that there are many captains with in the gangs each leading its own local chapter and the PCs were dealing with just the local chapters and there current captain. The overall bosses would be much higher lvl and beyond the PCs reach at this time so this allows them to punch the gangs in the nose to some degree but the gangs are still very much active with far more resources and multiple chapters each with there own captain.
That's Clever, i'll probably go with that!
As far as station security, the game states that violence in public areas such as these are rare and as such there would be security but they wouldn't have a physical presence in ever single docking bay.. I mean this is docking bay 94 after all meaning there are at least 93 others and likely a LOT more than that so not being able to physically cover each one with security is not really that unbelievable.
For a basic spaceport or a pirate station i would 100% agree, although this is the central trade station of all the Pact Worlds, i cannot believe that they can't afford a single lightly armed security guard on a docking station that's supposedly so crowded that the floor shakes.
''most notorious gang in Absalom Station''
Maybe the NPCs are just buttering up the PCs...
''most notorious gang in Absalom Station''Maybe the NPCs are just buttering up the PCs...
I guess it could be it, the guy isn't the most reliable source of information after all...
But:
I don't think so.
But then again maybe i'm just overthinking this whole thing, like usually do.
Spoiler:For a basic spaceport or a pirate station i would 100% agree, although this is the central trade station of all the Pact Worlds, i cannot believe that they can't afford a single lightly armed security guard on a docking station that's supposedly so crowded that the floor shakes.
Notorious doesn't mean powerful, just well known in a negative light.
They could be well known because they tag everything for all we know.
The gangs that ARE powerful, likely got that way because they aren't notorious. Absalom mafia or whatever.
Spoiler:In real life, if there were a sudden mass shooting to break out even in a populated port or transit area, it may be a full minute to 2 minutes for police forces to appropriately respond, which in Starfinder is 10 or 20 rounds. Having station security arrive right after the last bad guy is put down is actually pretty believable.
Notorious doesn't mean powerful, just well known in a negative light.
They could be well known because they tag everything for all we know.
The gangs that ARE powerful, likely got that way because they aren't notorious. Absalom mafia or whatever.
That's actually valid point, people can be notorious without being powerful, but they probably won't stay alive or free for long. Well i guess in this case a PCs gang did end their reign, so it's all good :P
Also keep in mind that "level 1 thugs" are devastatingly powerful in Starfinder... far tougher, faster, and more accurate than mere level 1 PCs.
Well yeah but level one PCs aren't exactly the thoughess of the bunch. Heck according to how skills is scaled to level, popular Pop singer will be thougher than level 1 PCs, but that's a another problem.
But even then,considering most of the citizens aren't more than CR 1/4, going by Pathfinder settlement rule, there's at least a level 3 caster per Hamlet (21-60 people). Absalom Station got at least a million citizens.
IMO, Ravingdork's argument is better. After all, notorious just mean popular in a bad manner, not powerful. But still, i expected the leader to be at least a little more powerful, so in the end i made the level 21 gang a really low-key one and the Downside King a chapter of a bigger gang.
But in the end i just stopped caring about realism in d20, it's not and i will never be, which is fine because it's not what it was made for in the first time.
Well yeah but level one PCs aren't exactly the thoughess of the bunch. Heck according to how skills is scaled to level, popular Pop singer will be thougher than level 1 PCs, but that's a another problem.
Skill bonuses for NPCs in Starfinder are rather high, as even a CR 1/2 can have +10 on three different skills. Which is enough to accomplish most tasks for that particular skill by simply taking 10.
But even then,considering most of the citizens aren't more than CR 1/4, going by Pathfinder settlement rule, there's at least a level 3 caster per Hamlet (21-60 people). Absalom Station got at least a million citizens.
While Pathfinder is obviously directly related to this game, it's still a different game with different assumptions. I feel like the issue with the most notorious gang not even being past level one sort of speaks for itself.
Skill bonuses for NPCs in Starfinder are rather high, as even a CR 1/2 can have +10 on three different skills. Which is enough to accomplish most tasks for that particular skill by simply taking 10.
Yeah, but my remark still hold, NPCs that never even touch a gun can be tougher and better at combat than level one PCs. For exemple, a popular and talented Pop Singer is bound to have better than the average citizens in it's Profession (singing) skill, which mean he need to be better than CR 1/2. Of course we can fudge the system to get rid of those silly situations, but that's houseruling.
While Pathfinder is obviously directly related to this game, it's still a different game with different assumptions. I feel like the issue with the most notorious gang not even being past level one sort of speaks for itself.
Yeah i'll admit that Starfinder isn't the same game and that using pathfinder settlement rule isn't valid. I'll refer instead to Pact Worlds CR1 security guard, Template description.
'' A security guard is a night sentry at a factory or other private facility, a frontier sheriff’s deputy, or a rookie uniformed police officer. It can be a tough job, but security work at least offers a steady income for those who don’t want turn to crime to make ends meet. Security guards are usually trained in defensive fighting and nonlethal tactics, enabling them to apprehend
criminals rather thank kill them outright. Security guards are sometimes looked down upon by those of higher ranks within the same force, but they represent the backbone of the force. Without them, even the idea of safety and security would be laughable.''
So basically the most notorious gang leaders are no better than ''night sentry'' or '' rookie uniformed police officer''. It just doesn't feel right.
But in the end it's fine, Starfinder isn't made to be realistic, the game is made to be PCs centric and when you dabble too much into the detail it's start falling apart. Which i had a problem with back in February but i came to accept Starfinder for what it is. If i feel like i want more realism i'll go back to gurps or something.
Yeah, they're... a street gang. Not a nebulous organization running everything behind the scenes.
Yeah, but my remark still hold, NPCs that never even touch a gun can be tougher and better at combat than level one PCs. For exemple, a popular and talented Pop Singer is bound to have better than the average citizens in it's Profession (singing) skill, which mean he need to be better than CR 1/2. Of course we can fudge the system to get rid of those silly situations, but that's houseruling.
Sure, you could raise said singer's CR to make sure no NPC could ever match up to the same skill level, but I feel like that sort of forces this supposed realism issue. Really, all this would mean is that most NPCs don't have perform trained, let alone having it as a mastered skill. As mentioned earlier, even a CR1/2 can accomplish most tasks associated with their master skill by simply taking 10.
How is that not realistic? Security guards sounds about the level of a street thug both level 1 challenges and ultimately no match individually for a group of well prepared adventurers.
Hmm yeah, realistic is a terrible choice of words, my bad. At time i just felt like it was going against some sort of internal world logic and i wondered how a 7-10 NPCs street gang could be really notorious and still free with cr 1/2 members and CR 1 gang leader.
Cause yeah, in a realistic setting a gang leader is most probably gonna be worst at fighting than a police officer, even a rookie one, as he lack formal fighting training. So again, realistic was a poor choice of word for that particular point.
Sure, you could raise said singer's CR to make sure no NPC could ever match up to the same skill level, but I feel like that sort of forces this supposed realism issue. Really, all this would mean is that most NPCs don't have perform trained, let alone having it as a mastered skill. As mentioned earlier, even a CR1/2 can accomplish most tasks associated with their master skill by simply taking 10.
Yeah but said NPC will be competing against other NPCs, one of them is bound to have better skill the other one. which can technically only be done with Higher CR. Which mean some npcs that never even hold a blaster will have better combat stats than PCs.
We can also turn this issue around, killing stuff can makes you better at hacking computers and will be a faster way than studying which gives little to no XP depending on your GM. As Gaining level gives skill point and there's no better way to level up than killing stuff.
Again i'm not saying Starfinder is bad, and i think Dead Suns AP is pretty fun, i would had stop running it if i had thought otherwise. There's just some moment that haves me scratch my head and i probably just need to stop tripping at every detail.
Yeah but said NPC will be competing against other NPCs, one of them is bound to have better skill the other one. which can technically only be done with Higher CR. Which mean some npcs that never even hold a blaster will have better combat stats than PCs.We can also turn this issue around, killing stuff can makes you better at hacking computers and will be a faster way than studying which gives little to no XP depending on your GM. As Gaining level gives skill point and there's no better way to level up than killing stuff.
Again i'm not saying Starfinder is bad, and i think Dead Suns AP is pretty fun, i would had stop running it if i had thought otherwise. There's just some moment that haves me scratch my head and i probably just need to stop tripping at every detail.
It's only necessary to level up competing NPCs if we assume that competing NPCs are all exactly optimized for that particular skill. Such as having a higher ability modifier than the standard bonus, by having the "extra skill" ability to raise their skill checks by 1, and having it as a mastered skill opposed to having it as simply good. The point being, NPCs already have a vast disparity amongst each other regarding skills and using levels to increase it is not a necessity, nor does a popular anything require a special snowflake statblock to model them as more successful than another competing NPC.
Gaining XP, to my knowledge, is strictly a PC thing. NPCs do not gain XP. Also, not all NPCs use the same stat array. They could be a combatant, spellcaster, or expert, which is not including using class grafts. They are only as good in combat as they are made, assuming they aren't all carbon copys of each other.