[PFS] Barmaid Brawler- yet another crazy build idea

[Selvaxri]

so, i had a crazy idea for a possible build- a Brawler Barmaid of Cayden Cailen using his Divine Fighting Technique. But not just any brawler, i'm thinking an Exemplar; a pseudo-support oriented martial build.

15 St/13* Dex/15 Con/10 Int/12 Wis/13 Cha/ human

I see this character being very mobile combat, grappling foes, using Inspire Courage when able. And also using Knockout's as often as possible

I was also considering dipping first into a left of Fighter to get three feats and the Divine Fighting Style as a replacement for Shield proficiency.

Any build directions i should consider? i was looking at Dirty Fighting and Improved Grapple, for purpose of the build idea.

My main problem comes with "how can i upgrade her tankard, as a weapon?"

[Kalindlara]

I built something based on the core concept a while back. I don't know how helpful it'd be, but remind me to drop in with some of the details. (I'd say "PM me", but... I don't exactly know where those are yet...)

[Grandlounge]

There are gloves to enchant improvised weapons. Adventure armory 2.

Rough and Ready is a solid trait as is Surprise Weapon or Improvised Defense.

Humans can have Giant Ancestry which is helpful.

There are also some magic tankard that can be purchased.

[Derry L. Zimeye]

I think it'd be pretty cool to see how you could incorporate the rules for alcohol consumption into this character! Take a swig before going into battle and getting those bonuses to physical stats for a while, and then trying to ride it out as long as possible before succumbing to hangover. Just beef up those fort saves and avoid entering Stage 3 for as long as possible!

[Ferious Thune]

Grandlounge wrote:

There are gloves to enchant improvised weapons. Adventure armory 2.

Rough and Ready is a solid trait as is Surprise Weapon or Improvised Defense.

Humans can have Giant Ancestry which is helpful.

There are also some magic tankard that can be purchased.

The legality of the gloves for PFS is uncertain. The Additional Resources says all equipment is legal, but they are magic items, not equipment. In some entries, those are all listed under equipment. In others, they are separate categories. I'm hoping it gets clarified in the upcoming AR update, though I asked about it before the November update and it didn't get addressed then. For what it's worth, Archives of Nethys does not list the gloves as legal.

That out of the way, it sounds like a fun build. If you're taking the Exemplar archetype, are you selecting Improved Unarmed Strike as a feat at some point? That's required for Improved Grapple, but Exemplar trades it away.

[Selvaxri]

Ferious Thune wrote:

That out of the way, it sounds like a fun build. If you're taking the Exemplar archetype, are you selecting Improved Unarmed Strike as a feat at some point? That's required for Improved Grapple, but Exemplar trades it away.

Taking Dirty Fighting gets rid of most of the prereqs for Improved Grapple; having IUS wouldn't be bad...

Build Option 1-
Exemplar [Barmaid Brawler]
1> Dirty Fighting, Divine Fighting Style (Cayden Cailen)
2> Improved Grapple
3> Improved Initiative
> -
5> Lingering Performance [as i won't have many Bardic Performances], ??

Something to get me the ability to act in the surprise round, most likely...
Jokingly, start with a dip into Free Hand Fighter for an extra combat feat though nothing mechanically from the archetype, but it opens up the ability to take the Divine Fighting Style without a feat slot.

Build Option 2
Brawler [Fighter]/Evangelist [Cleric]~~ a Priestess of the Hall of Drunken Heroes?!

[Ferious Thune]

I forgot Dirty Fighting counts as both Combat Expertise and IUS. Nice.

[Selvaxri]

okay, new question- would be the easier build direction? A grapple-oriented Examplar who, when get the ability, is battlefield support that uses her knockout to her best ability; or be the atypical martial bruiser?

13/17*/14/10/12/13
1> [Free Hand Fighter] Dirty Fighting, Dodge, Agile Maneuevers, DFT (CC)*
2> [Exemplar] -
3> [Exemplar] Improved Grapple, Improved Initiative

The Exemplar archetype screams support martial, i like the idea of grappling enemies, dragging them around the battlefield, using Inspire Courage when i can.

I have a Swashbuckler/Ranger that uses the Freebooter archetype for a minor boost. I do like the idea of being a support martial.

[Selvaxri]

still looking for advice and ideas for this build...
Should I go standard brawler that has a support ability; or should i go dex-based grappling field control? would it be worth it to dip into fighter for the possible direction of the build.

[Selvaxri]

with the advent of 2e on the horizon, i may just hold off on making this build.
I have 16 PFS characters, and adding more may be a bad idea with the inability playing them is discouraging my decision on making this character, as fun and flavorful as it may.

[Selvaxri]

Revisiting this thread. still looking for input and advice.
I've decided I may just go a mobile combatant route, rather than a grappling battlefield controller. I was considering a possibly two-weapon fighting route, though the Exemplar looses IUS- so i'd have to take that manually.

another route, would be some Style feats. If i could manage Drunken style, i'd try that as well.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Okay, I put together a build for a mobile grappler. She takes a level in White Haired Witch. She takes a level in Brawler to get Improved Unarmed Strike to qualify for Improved Grapple. She takes levels in Warpriest to improve her Natural Attack Damage with Sacred Weapon. She takes Feral Combat Training to use Panther Style Feats with her Hair.

1Brawler: Martial Flexibility, Martial Cunning, Unarmed 1d6, Improved Grapple, Combat Reflexes, BAB +1
2B1White Haired Witch1
3B1WH1Warpriest1: Divine Commander Archetype, Weapon Focus Hair, Sacred Weapon 1d6, Minor Blessing, Panther Style
4B1W1Wp2: Fervor 1d6, BAB +2
5B1W1Wp3: Broken Wing Gambit, Tactician, Feral Combat Training, BAB+3
6B1W1Wp3Cavalier1: Constable, Challenge, Tactician, Coordinated Maneuvers, Order of the Penitent, BAB+4
7B1W1Wp3C2: Expert Captor, Dodge, BAB+5
8B2W1Wp3C2: Greater Grapple, BAB +6
9B2W1Wp4C2: Panther Claw, Channel Energy, Sacred Weapon +1, Level 2 Spells, BAB+7
10B2W1Wp5C2: Sacred Weapon 1d8, Fervor 2d6
11B2W1Wp6C2: Panther Parry, Mobility

When you have someone Grappled in your White Hair, they have the Grappled Condition, but you don't, so you can use Broken Wing Gambit to make Attacks of Opportunity even when you have someone Grappled in your tresses. No limit has been specified as to how many people can be involved in a grapple with you nor how many can be grappled in your hair. With Expert Captor, You will only need 2 Grapple Checks to Tie Up your opponent.

[Scott Wilhelm]

I came up with another one. This one is a little less mobile, but I think does more damage.

1Ranger1: Freebooter, Power Attack, Cleave, BAB+1
2R1Brawler1: Unarmed 1d6, Martial Versatility, Martial Cunning, BAB+2
3R1B1Witch1: White Hair, Improved Grapple
4R1B1W1Warpriest1: Weapon Focus Hair, Sacred Weapon 1d6, Minor Blessing, Spells, Aura, Holy Tactician
5R1B1W1Wp1Cavalier1: Constable, Tactician, Broken Wing Gambit, Combat Reflexes, BAB+3
6R1B1W1Wp1C2: Expert Captor, BAB+4
7R1B1W1Wp2C2: Fervor 1d6, Great Cleave BAB+5
8R1B1W1Wp3C2: Tactician, Coordinated Maneuvers, BAB+6
9R1B1W1Wp4C2: Channel Energy, Sacred Weapon +1, Level 2 Spells, Greater Grapple BAB+7
10R1B1W2Wp5C2: Sacred Weapon 1d8, Fervor 2d6
11R2B1W1Wp5C2: Improved Natural Attack, Iron Will, BAB+8
12R3B1W1Wp5C2: Endurance, BAB+9
13R3B1W1Wp5C2Living Monolith1: Enlarge Person,+2 Save vs. Death, Mind effects, and neg levels, Rapid Grappler

This one will get multiple attacks through Great Cleave rather than through Panther Style. She will take more levels in Warpriest, increasing her Base Damage. Improved Natural Attack gives a Virtual Size Increase of the Hair Attack from 1d8 to 2d6. Enlarge Person is an actual Size Increase that will stack with the virtual one, so the Hair damage will increase to 3d6, 4d6 if you buff yourself with a Wand of Strong Jaw. PFS characters usually retire at level 12, but I have heard of Seeker Arcs that allow some further advancement. The Witch's Familiar should be a King Crab, since that's the one that grants a +2 on Grapple Checks. If you can take levels after that, I suppose you could take levels in Alchemist, making your Familiar a Tumor Familiar. Since you have levels in Warpriest, you can use the Familiar's Deliver Touch Spells Ability to make it cast Shield Other on you and give the finger to the PDT for outlawing Tumor Protector Familiars.

_|__

[Selvaxri]

Unfortunately neither of those builds appeal to me. Those builds are needlessly specialized and don't say "barmaid brawler". I already have a grippli cavalier grappler build, and i don't like making similar characters.

I want this build to focused around the Exemplar archetype.

[Grandlounge]

I have a build on another thread (the grapple vampire investigator thread) that uses the exemplar and one level a urban, blood conduit bloodrager that makes a great versatile melee character. It has an optional mauler familiar if you want an extra creature to buff.

The build if effective staring at level one and gets continually better without over specializing.

I'm a bit busy so I can't look it up right now. Either take a peek at it or I can post a copy of the build here another time.

If you like the idea leave a post and we can talk about it.

[Selvaxri]

I found your build-

Grandlounge wrote:

I have a grapple investigator. He is human but the build may help.

Blood conduit (urban if you want) bloodrager 1 (extra rage, power attack, improved grapple archetype bonus feat).

Every other level is bonded investigator. Have a bat familair (Flying Fox) become an imp at 8.

3-Falayna celestial obedience
4-Mutagen
5-Extra investigator talent - quick study
6-Expaned inspiration
7-Dirty Fighting
9-Greater Grapple

Use polymorph extracts, resinous skin, heroism.

Your familair can benifit from your extracts. So it can polymorph and do damage while you grapple. An imp even has martial weapon proficency.

2 sets of rolls of the skills your trained in. So your good out of combat.

Dirty fighting + menacing weapon on the familiar is +6 from flanking to your cmb.

The build has huge bonuses to cmb but fewer to cmd so watch that.

Three modes:

1) Grappler with melee familair (shield companion)
2) Two attacker flanking buddy (shield companion).
3) melee/grappler with support familiar (umd and prisoners gloves), ioun stone.

and like all the ones that Scott posted- i don't think a grapple route is the direction i want to go.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Selvaxri wrote:

i don't think a grapple route is the direction i want to go.

Okay, change in heart about grappling. Take another look at my first build. I had another thing going on in addition to Grappling.

The character build I offered got multiple attacks/round by moving around the battlefield and provoking attacks of opportunity. She would use Panther Style Feats to get multiple Free Action Attacks, and Broken Wing Gambit to get multiple attacks of opportunity. To make her someone who could grapple multiple opponents, I gave her a level in White Haired Witch, but we can go another way. Have her take levels in Monk and be a Drunken Quinngong Monk Master of Many Styles. Have her take--I dunno, Panther and Dragon Styles. Get Broken Wing Gambit through a 1 level dip in Cavalier. That doesn't say Barmaid, but "Drunken" suggests it.

I guess you can just take Panther Style Feats as a Brawler and forget about a 2nd Style Feat and forget about Drunken Ki. You still get BWG with just a single level dip in Cavalier.

Ideally, for a build like this, I'd prefer a big weapon like a Greatsword that I would name Tipjar, and take Martial Flexibility and Ascetic Style to be able to use Panther Style Feats with the Greatsword, but this is for PFS, and last I looked, you can't take Ascetic Style in PFS. No love for the Tankard: I'd just have you use Unarmed Strikes. Maybe Drunken Master has something special for the tankard.

[Grandlounge]

OK. No worries. Later in the tread I post a exemplar brawler.

[Selvaxri]

@Scott- i can still take Broken Wing Gambit through the Exemplar's "psuedo-Tactician" ability at 5th. I take it via Martial Flexibility, and pass it out without making an over complicated build.

I may still go Dirty Fighting and play it off an "overly touchy drunk" just to mess up some combat.
I don't want to be a dedicated grapple build, though i won't rule out grappling when it's an appropriate tactic.

As an Exemplar, my two team-happy abilities will eat my actions per round.
I will be a standard to doll out Inspire Courage, then later a Move to gain a Feat through Martial Flexibility.

I want to try to get the Drunken Brawler feat.

The direction i'm pondering- is going a two-weapon fighting route with my tankard and unarmed strikes; or an in-your-face distraction fighter.

I can take Panther Style through Dirty Fighting, and just take IUS through Martial Flexibility when using the style.

I still believe a level 1 dip into Fighter is the best option as it gets me three feats and the Divine Fighting Style of Cayden Cailen right from the start.

[Grandlounge]

Flexing into style feats or ius for them eats a lot of action especially with a feat the needs a Swift action to activate and typically a move to draw an aoo.

Low levels you should flex a useful feat and get your song up.

Mid levels either flex and share a teamwork feat or put a song up. But you have 1 tactician use a day. This is your big move against the bbeg.

At six 2 feats and a song.

At level 9 you get to use inspire as a move so you can flex into a feat, put up a song, and share a feat.

I would be trying to keep the action economy tight.

If you want to tankard an punch I you would use a cestus. You give up scaling uas damage so a weapon in a better choice as it is more cost effective to enchant and does not take up the neck slot.

You don't really need many feats to make the build work. Divine fighting technique at 3. Things like dirty fighting, power attack, combat expertise as pre-reqs, for access to feat chains.

I don't thing drunken brawler is necessary or good but you can get it fairly easily.

If I were dipping on this build one level of the drunken brute barb would be my choice. That said I would not delay the action economy improvement by multi classing.

[Selvaxri]

I do like the idea of getting FOUR feats at lvl 1 by dipping into fighter, but i do agree that slowing my primary build's progression isn't worth it.

I'm thinking of a stat array close to
15 Str/14* Dex/14 Con/10 Int/13 Wis/13 Cha

I need 13 Wis for some possible shenanigans with some with Punishing Kick at later levels; i need a decent charisma for Bardic Performances when i get them.

I'm half contemplating going down the Step Up feat chain, and possibly taking Disruptive to hinder casters. Definitely playing this possible build off as an "clingy drunk" roleplay.

And i'm having second thoughts on the Divine Fighting Technique. it would be fitting for the character, but not completely vital to the build. its just something to supplement the lose of IUS and Flurry that the Exemplar trades out.

1> Dirty Fighting, Step Up
2*> Combat Reflexes
3> Following Step
4> -
5*> Divine Fighting Technique (Cayden Cailen), Two-Weapon Fighting
6> -
7> Step Up & Strike
8*> Panther Style
9> Punishing Kick

I'm thinking with this direction, i'm a harrying combatant. Step Up & Strike allows me to trigger Broken Wing Gambit, the DFT could potentially help keep me alive.
opinions?

[Scott Wilhelm]

Well, how about being just a Drunken, Quinngong Master of Many Styles, taking Panther first, Dragon Second, and Snake 3rd. The extra Ki from Drunken is nice, and it evokes the Barmaid. Panther Style Feats activate on Movement. Snake Fang gives you an Attack of Opportunity whenever anyone attacks you and misses. Dragon Style and Dragon Ferocity give you a Damage Bonus on all your attacks. Between both the Panther Claw Free Action Attacks and Snake Fang's extremely sensitive AoO trigger, you will get lots and lots of extra attacks: your Wis and Dex mods combined! Taking Dodge and Mobility will be essential. Between the 2, they will give you a +5 AC on all the many, many Attacks of Opportunity you will be provoking. Panther Parry will make it a +6. For a character like this, I'd want to eventually acquire a Crown of Swords, which summons a Spritual Sword that attacks anything that hits you, so you will bet bonus attacks whether you are hit or missed!

You could also consider dipping into Alchemist and take Mutagens instead of Snake Style Feats. There is an Alchemist Discovery, Cognatation, that gives you a +4 Wisdom and a -2 Dex.

I think that Drunken Ki should let you drink Alchemal Extracts and Mutagens without provoking Attacks of Opportunity, but I have not tested that at any PFS table.

[Grandlounge]

You don't lose flurry, which means you get the TWF feat chain for free.

[Selvaxri]

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

<Overly complicated build that isn't in the direction of the original build>

Please stop. I want to make this character an Exemplar. Not a monk, or witch/warpriest/constable/waffle-iron/deadpan-comic/shifter. BRAWLER. End all, be all.

Grandlounge wrote:

You don't lose flurry, which means you get the TWF feat chain for free.

True, too bad a tankard (light mace) doesn't count as a "close weapon"

I thought i lost proficency with Close Weapons, i only just lose Close Weapon Mastery.

Cestus, Rapier, Tankard, and a Butterfly Sword or Tonfa as my primary weapons.

[Grandlounge]

It does not work with the tankard which sucks but brawlers don't need to use to weapons to two weapon fight. Hold a tankard and use the cestus twice.

Consider Tankard of the Drunken Hero.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Selvaxri wrote:

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

<Overly complicated build that isn't in the direction of the original build>

Please stop. I want to make this character an Exemplar. Not a monk, or witch/warpriest/constable/waffle-iron/deadpan-comic/shifter. BRAWLER. End all, be all.

Grandlounge wrote:

You don't lose flurry, which means you get the TWF feat chain for free.

True, too bad a tankard (light mace) doesn't count as a "close weapon"

I thought i lost proficency with Close Weapons, i only just lose Close Weapon Mastery.

Cestus, Rapier, Tankard, and a Butterfly Sword or Tonfa as my primary weapons.

Suit yourself.

[shoekey]

There is a new Bouncer Archetype for the Brawler now.

[Selvaxri]

Revisiting this build. i'm simply look for a direction to take an Exemplar Brawler; as most of her actions at later levels will be used by Performance or Tactician, so i want her to be effective using attack of opportunity or the Step Up feat train.

[Nirdish]

Could you slap the Versatile Design weapon modification on the tankard to let it be considered a close weapon?

Alternately, do you HAVE to use the tankard as a light mace, or can you use it as a gauntlet (which is what the Two-Weapon Drunkard feat says is the normal rule)? If it can simply be counted as a gauntlet, then the Shielded Gauntlet feat line would allow you to scale up the damage, gain defensive benefits, and perform free Steal or Disarm on an AoO.

[Backlash3906]

Nirdish wrote:

Could you slap the Versatile Design weapon modification on the tankard to let it be considered a close weapon?

Alternately, under the rules for Creating New Weapons, you can make a custom weapon function as a mundane tool. A tankard seems pretty mundane.

Tool (0 DP): The weapon can also serve as a specific mundane tool. Add triple the price and double the weight of the tool to the weapon’s final price and weight.

[Selvaxri]

Nirdish wrote:

Could you slap the Versatile Design weapon modification on the tankard to let it be considered a close weapon?

Alternately, do you HAVE to use the tankard as a light mace, or can you use it as a gauntlet (which is what the Two-Weapon Drunkard feat says is the normal rule)? If it can simply be counted as a gauntlet, then the Shielded Gauntlet feat line would allow you to scale up the damage, gain defensive benefits, and perform free Steal or Disarm on an AoO.

this is for PFS, Versatile Design isn't allowed.

Also, Two-Weapon Drunkard is bit feat intensive and really doesn't add much to the build.
especially when compared to Cayden's Blade & Tankard Divine fighting style:

Quote:

Initial Benefit: You can wield a tankard (or mug) as a weapon, treating it in all ways as a light mace appropriate for your size. If you engage in two-weapon fighting with a rapier or light weapon in one hand and a tankard in the other, you can drink a potion or other liquid from the tankard or attempt to toss liquid from the tankard as a dirty trickAPG combat maneuver (such as to blind a foe) in place of attacking with it. You do not provoke attacks of opportunity for attempting a dirty trick maneuver with a tankard.

which happens to be a direction i'm currently leaning AWAY from, since the original idea.

[Selvaxri]

After GM'ing at a local convention, i've gotten some floating GM credit, so i'm drudging up this build for further review and critique and possible other directions.

Sum up the build: daughter of a Priestess of Cayden Cailen, whom never really joined the clegy, and often works at the Hall of Drunken Heroes as a bouncer/security.
Exemplar (brawler archetype).

Selvaxri wrote:

15 Str/14* Dex/14 Con/10 Int/13 Wis/13 Cha

1> Dirty Fighting, Step Up
2*> Combat Reflexes
3> Following Step
4> -
5*> Divine Fighting Technique (Cayden Cailen), Two-Weapon Fighting
6> -
7> Step Up & Strike
8*> Panther Style
9> Punishing Kick

I'm thinking with this direction, i'm a harrying combatant. Step Up & Strike allows me to trigger Broken Wing Gambit, the DFT could potentially help keep me alive.
opinions?