Organized Play Manager
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This thread is for the discussion of factions and the prestige/fame system and suggestions for changes for Pathfinder Society in 2019.
For more context to this thread, visit Pathfinder Playtest and Pathfinder Society FAQ.
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This is an excellent opportunity to actually make a living campaign. The initial idea behind factions with PFS, was that they were all vying for control of Absalom in a shadow war, and using the Society as a means to help do so.
But because data either could be, or wasn't gathered, and no forward movement was seen with the factions, everything stagnated. I know that Mike & Mark tried to fix this with Season 3 and 4, and Mike/John/Linda/Tonya/Thursty have done a great job in subsequent seasons to move faction storylines forward.
But making sure that choices matter and can be used in future scenarios... and advancing faction storylines right from the very start, will be paramount in making this feel like a living campaign.
Developer
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1. Faction Intro Missions: Love them. But playing them more than three times get's a little tedious, and due to time constraints some of the faction missions are more exciting and memorable than others. Having to only meet with maybe 3 of the 9 factions per play-through would help make these more replayable. GMs could even choose which factions players meet with depending on which factions players are most interested in. Heck, if space permits, we could even have a fourth encounter determined by the combination chosen to help demonstrate the way the factions get along with one another.
2. Player Interaction: Love the Salvation of the Sages thread. Loved the election in Andoran. I'm a big Interactive Storyteller System (L5R) fan, so any way to feel like I'm making a difference in my favorite factions is a plus. I feel like this will be the best way to keep Pathfinder Society 1.0 interesting: An opportunity to shape the future of Golarion! (Why is there no boon thread for Lion's Justice?)
3. Factions: While there needs to be the same kind of focus on 9 or so factions in the Society, I love the idea of the system presented in Adventurer's Guide wherein players can earn fame with minor-factions to unlock benefits. It can help open up new routes to unlocking mechanics, as well as make players really feel like they have earned their position in the factions...other than "spend 2 prestige to become a Lion Blade."
4. Unaligned: If players aren't a part of multiple factions like in Starfinder (preferred), they should at least be allowed to not be in a faction until they find one that fits. I like the idea of switching factions because of what happened in character...but being mechanically penalized by spending prestige always felt really painful.
5. Rebuilds: I understand the problem with unlimited rebuilds and I agree. I also enjoy that we aren't locked in until level 2. But I'd rather the rule be changed so that we are not locked in until we gain a level as a player. It can be painful to drop 10 or 12 GM chronicles just to realize you can't really roleplay the character at the table and your anxiety leads you to just drop all that gold and prestige...especially with concepts whose mechanics and RP are systematically tied in your head.
Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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The multiple factions approach could work for PFS2.
I am pretty happy how most of the current factions are represented and I love some of the scenarios that let you interact with a faction head while in the mission (Weapon in the Rift and Copper Gate are good examples).
The characterization of the new SFS Faction heads in commencement worked pretty well for me, and something similar could be useful for PF2 to introduce new players to the various factions.
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Honestly, I am currently quite happy with most of the scenarios so on the faction front, keep doing what you are doing (of course more Dark Archive and Silver Crussade missions are always welcome), factions should not be a major factor in all missions, but for some like Salvation of the Sages, they should be central the narrative.
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Maybe something akin to what we have in the current season as far as a larger storyline for factions, but not everyone all at once. Three factions in a given season having a larger scale storyline would be good. Not to say don't have faction tied scenarios for the others, just not as large an impact compared to the focused factions.
Regional Venture-Coordinator, Appalachia
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If you're going to keep the whole "ideology faction" system, then yes I agree allowing membership in multiple factions is fully sensible and works really well for all but one of the factions (Scarab Sages) that currently exist anyway. But I have found that both in Starfinder and in Pathfinder that these looser coalitions tend to not inspire much loyalty or interest unless the stories themselves are heavily playing up the factions (this is why a strong majority of players I know went Scarab Sages or Guaril Karela err.. The Exchange or Sovreign Court with all of their recruitment missions)
But I would really like to see the ideology factions go away in favor of more political factions vying for control and influence and to have the vying for control and influence actually manifest itself. To have your memberships matter and to really strongly illustrate the setting. A Cheliax faction for all of your hellknights and dark power wielders, The Exchange kind of works as is and you can even widen its net to include the artists of Kintargo, but you get what I mean. I want the factions to matter more and to matter in every scenario, not just ones written FOR the faction and to accomplish that you probably need to kick ideology based factions to the curb.
(Season 9 has been great and I mean that literally SO GOOD, but its been an entire season of "ah damn, I don't have a character of the proper faction in the proper tier and I feel like I am missing out if I don't play a character from the proper faction in this one". I would really like to not see that become the norm in PF2, especially as early on most people will just have one character. )
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I would prefer not to see/hear/experience the quasi-not-quite-PvP of previous earlier Seasons when, let's face it, less than creative writing styles pushed a table of players against each other in cross-purposes for goals that their faction leader shouldn't in any way, shape, or form have even known about.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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I rather like how each of the current factions has different priorities but they're no longer enemies. And together they cover the spectrum of PC interests fairly well.
I'm also liking the rules structure of Starfinder factions, I think that could work in PFS too.
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I like the idea of more adventures being less about the factions, and more about the departments with the Society (Scrolls/Spells/Swords). And would like to see some more evergreens at multiple tiers. It would also be interesting to have a modular evergreen series that spans multiple tiers. For instance in the lowest tier you are introduced to factions, at the next tier up you have a modular adventure that shows you some inner workings of the faction, and at the highest tier you are someone introducing a 'new' character to the faction and have to support them behind the scenes as they do the tasks you used to be assigned.
The multiple faction idea from Starfinder is a great thing, especially if the Factions remain non-hostile to each other. I hate having to go, "Well I'm not a member of this faction, I guess I miss out of this reward." Maybe make it so it's like a flag system. "As long as I am actively representing this faction, I have access to these boons. If I have to do this mission for another faction, I don't get the boons because my faction doesn't care enough about this mission to spend the resources the boons represent."
I also wouldn't mind receiving more warning about factions retiring. Or at least have options like the one currently happening for the Sages. I had both a Shadow Lodge and Tien factions. When those factions retired the characters one of the characters was a long way from the level cap and ended up sort of drifting along for the remainder of his time in the Society. (The other got luck and managed to retire on a DM credit with their faction closing mission.)
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The Garund Liberation Front reiterates its call for greater representation of non-Avistan peoples in the top ranks of the Pathfinder Society.
I know we would all be sad if VCs such as Drandle Dreng were "accidentally" mauled by roving packs of dire tigers in the back alleys of Absalom.
Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville
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I, myself, do not understand the Faction Unification system in Starfinder, where the character isn't really a part of any one faction but picks and chooses at a whim. I would hope that is not a part of Pathfinder, either now or in 2.0.
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The Garund Liberation Front reiterates its call for greater representation of non-Avistan peoples in the top ranks of the Pathfinder Society.
I know we would all be sad if VCs such as Drandle Dreng were "accidentally" mauled by roving packs of dire tigers in the back alleys of Absalom.
There's a high-level scenario you should play before 1st edition PFS slows down/ends.
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I like the idea of removing factions as a whole and implementing the departments as Trscroggs said. However, for me scrolls and spells are too similar and with the addition of the alchemist being in the new core, maybe an overhaul of the departments to something like alchemy/magic/swords or the like and allow for the PCs to choose which department they are working in that scenario. Furthering progress with rewards down the line after reporting these and having a total that must be met by all of society IRL. Also, having tasks assigned by the department/area you are working for and only having three would tidy things up and have the benefit of the Pathfinders actually progressing the lodge and not their individual faction motives. You know: Explore, Report, Cooperate. :-)
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There's a high-level scenario you should play before 1st edition PFS slows down/ends.The Garund Liberation Front reiterates its call for greater representation of non-Avistan peoples in the top ranks of the Pathfinder Society.
I know we would all be sad if VCs such as Drandle Dreng were "accidentally" mauled by roving packs of dire tigers in the back alleys of Absalom.
Possible to say a bit more without massive spoilers?
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Personally, I'm not as big a fan of the approach SFS took, but I am hoping that with this starting from ground level and building back up that we can see a larger investment into Vanities and see those options have potential meaning within Scenarios too (especially Specials!).
I wouldn't mind the ability to earn Fame with other Factions outside your own to potentially unlock/earn the ability to purchase a specific "Outsider"/"Friend of" tier of vanities.
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I like the idea that there are recurring personalities and long-term agendas within PFS that add a sense of continuity to the episodic nature of scenarios. Yay!
But do we need factions for that? Often the factions overshadow PFS itself, thought that's gotten better. I don't like when the factions have goals contrary to each other or PFS as a whole. Sometimes they feel like parasite agencies latched on to PFS and sometimes they do have a goal crucial to PFS...so why is only that faction dealing with it?
So yes, I like SFS factions better because each has a function within the whole, not just their own agendas. It's easy to imagine them working together or even encouraging you to aid other factions when the need lies there. I also like how PCs are free agents working with whatever faction suits their inkling, and much like in a corporation you can gain favor with all sorts of entities.
Apologies if my lines of delineation weren't clear. I suppose I would like to see Pathfinder Society's overall goals highlighted more with the faction goals serving that according to talents. I dislike the factions coming across as a loose alliance of disparate entities fighting over recruits. Sure there's a Grand Lodge faction, but they're like the backup faction rather than the primary one they should be.
IMO, that is. Cheers.
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I'm not sure how I feel about using the SF fluid faction alliance model in PF (if the existing factions were kept). I can see pros and cons--nothing either awe inspiring nor terrible--so I really don't know.
I liked the allegiance they had to form, but at the same time, I have characters that would be better as a mix of two factions.
EDIT: I do like how the faction boons work in SFS, though.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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I find that in the current system, Fame basically doesn't matter. Prestige points matter, but fame doesn't really.
Yes, item access is based on fame, but in almost all cases a character's item access is determined by how much money he has, and it's pretty hard (and vanishingly rare in my experience) to get a character with enough money to buy an item that would be above his fame rating. Other than that, there's nothing much really; a handful of vanities that nobody ever takes require a 10 or 20 fame, or something? I've not seen this matter over several years of play.
So I'd say, either get rid of fame (and use only prestige); or have it actually do something meaningful.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Maryland—Hagerstown
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I am thinking something along the lines of what Starfinder Society does. The more fame you have, will open up different tiers of boons you could purchase from the guide and it gives you a +1 diplomacy(i think) to interact with members of your faction per tier.
Not sure about the jumping from faction to faction, but it does make sense, since The Society should be working together, and should be able to gain fame/reputation with other factions.
Honestly, moving away from nations was a good thing. It always seemed like we were about to go to war with one another trying to satisfy our own factions over the other.
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I seem to have had the misfortune of any character I create, their faction gets retired - Shadow Lodge, Lantern Lodge, Scarab Sages.
If PFS2 characters could have a main faction but flirt with other factions ala SFS, then retired factions, or completely new factions perhaps in response to a current Adventure Path, could make cameo appearances for specific missions.
Minor factions wouldn't play any more than an occasional role in the ongoing campaign, but would throw a bone to characters who were built around these themes.
Endorsing a small number of major factions, while entertaining occasional minor factions, would support one of Pathfinder 2nd Edition's stated goals of "more customisation".
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I would like to request a baseline, zero cost membership into your chosen faction. I love the multi-faction system that SF put into place, but having to spend your fame to join your faction of choice in order to gain fame seems a bit backwards to me; especially given that when you upload a character to the Paizo site for SF, it forces you to choose a faction. You could even put up a dual-cost system where your faction of choice is Cost 0, but to be able to gain fame/PP/whatever in any other faction costs 2 per additional faction.
First ones free, second one will cost you
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Regional Venture-Coordinator, Appalachia
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I just wish the factions were more integrated with the setting and that it was more clear which factions intersect where.
The Silver Crusade has sort of suddenly morphed into being the "goes to Tian Xia all the time" faction but there's very little that indicates that inherent to the faction.
The Exchange in theory is heavily entwined with Qadira and Magnimar and yet they rarely have taken advantage of that.
I feel like the factions should serve as a way to engage with the setting because otherwise I don't really know what function they serve.
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Venture-Captain, Missouri—Cape Girardeau
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I just wish the factions were more integrated with the setting and that it was more clear which factions intersect where.
The Silver Crusade has sort of suddenly morphed into being the "goes to Tian Xia all the time" faction but there's very little that indicates that inherent to the faction.
The Exchange in theory is heavily entwined with Qadira and Magnimar and yet they rarely have taken advantage of that.
I feel like the factions should serve as a way to engage with the setting because otherwise I don't really know what function they serve.
This is a fair point, actually.
In earlier Seasons, faction missions tended to take place in areas that made sense for them to be happening; a Cheliax mission happened in Cheliax (or one of her former colonies), a Taldor mission usually took place either in Taldor or had something to due with one of the Exploration Armies, etc. It would be nice if, regardless of which Factions arise from this (2E), the missions make sense for that Faction in that area.
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I personally really liked the nation based factions. I loved being a Chelish summoner of fiends who worked from within the Society to further the goals of his country. It was more about external forces looking for ways to benefit from the society. The newer factions feel more like little smaller organizations specifically within the society and doesn't really give it's members a role in the larger world as a whole like the previous factions did.
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In short, I like the SFS faction mechanism. I think some of the issue is that in early PFS when you joined a faction, it was like membership in a secret society. In SFS, rather than joining a faction as such, you increase your reputation with them due to your actions.
Okay, so you do join a faction as well (although you only represent one at a time, based on the champion boon you slot), but you can impress other factions all the time. And that is good.
I'd almost suggest however that you still can join a faction in PFSv2 but that there are other organisations that you gain reputation with, either inside or outside the pathfinder society.
Want to join the Arcanamirium? Well, if you have earned there respect (i.e done some missions they approve of) then maybe you can join, or get a discount on joining.
Sheila Heidmarch dislikes you after she asked your paladin to rob a caravan and you refused, maybe you have negative rep with the Mangnimar lodge. Of course you have to start being careful about affiliation explosion, but it would certainly be interesting and possibly help characters focus a little more in the longer terms in terms of working with particular lodges.
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Regional Venture-Coordinator, Appalachia
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I guess my biggest issue on that Aerondor is that I do not really feel like I understand what purpose of the Dataphiles or the Xeno-guardians really serve in universe beyond being clubs within the grander society.
There is so much campaign architecture based around these factions and I just don't understand what role they're supposed to serve because they don't really matter very much to the lore of the world.
Between season 5 and season 9 of PFS, this was even more true most of the time, Scarab Sages aside and it is always a hard sell to get new players to care about the factions. They care about specific in world organizations - Hellknights or Bellflower Tillers or Lion Blades - or about helping specific pet nations, like Cheliax or Magnimar which is what makes the nationality based factions 'better' in my view. Admittedly season 9 has improved this a lot, but it still leads to a lot of moments where people are like "aw dang, I don't have a member of X Faction in X level range"
My thought is to either construct the factions the way the Scarab Sages were - in which case faction flirtation really shouldn't be a thing because its a group with specific goals who needs dedicated members or else just retire the concept and all the effort that goes into constructing the campaign architecture around it and just put all the vanities into a generic pool.
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I'm not a big fan of a person being able to work with multiple factions, yet still be received as champions of a faction. Logically, a person wouldn't want somebody that plays the field into their inner circle.
In SFS, a character who has carried out missions for more than one faction has less Reputation and a lower tier of rewards with any one faction than if she had stuck with a single allegiance, though so far, totals are low enough that it varies considerably by scenario results.
Having factions that are based more on a player's skillset, such as martial characters with the sword pfs group, casters with spell, etc.
Many of my characters have chosen a faction contrary to what their skill set would suggest. The current factions are nuanced enough and have a diverse enough range of faction benefits to support it.
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I quite like the current faction choice in PFS (far more than the nation based factions). I like the fact that they cover, essentially, reasons that the character is an adventurer and NOT where they live or how they kill things in order to take their stuff. Almost all of my characters quite naturally fall into one faction or another.
That said, I REALLY like the way that, in Starfinder, you can be a member of more than 1 faction. I've got PFS characters who logically would support more than one faction, who have goals in alignment with multiple factions.
But I don't really like the Starfinder factions. I've found that, as a GM, I rarely know which factions are even present at the table until I ask. In Starfinder, ICONs actually take a fair bit of the weight off factions in connecting the character to the larger world, giving them a motivation over and above the current mission.
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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But I don't really like the Starfinder factions. I've found that, as a GM, I rarely know which factions are even present at the table until I ask. In Starfinder, ICONs actually take a fair bit of the weight off factions in connecting the character to the larger world, giving them a motivation over and above the current mission.
The factions in Starfinder play much less of a role. What the factions do is support the characters on their missions. That's why it is important for the player to support the faction that benefits their character direction or flavor. There are some pretty cool faction boons that are tier 1, which is not all the difficult to get with a character.
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But I don't really like the Starfinder factions. I've found that, as a GM, I rarely know which factions are even present at the table until I ask. In Starfinder, ICONs actually take a fair bit of the weight off factions in connecting the character to the larger world, giving them a motivation over and above the current mission.The factions in Starfinder play much less of a role. What the factions do is support the characters on their missions. That's why it is important for the player to support the faction that benefits their character direction or flavor. There are some pretty cool faction boons that are tier 1, which is not all the difficult to get with a character.
If I'm understanding you correctly you seem to think that, essentially, they're just another resource to manage. If you're correct then I don't really see that as worthwhile. To me, the entire POINT of factions is to lead to interesting role playing at the table?
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Venture-Lieutenant, Minnesota—Minneapolis
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I like the system of factions and boons by tier that SFS has. I would like to see that ported to PFS2. I think some of the vanities from PFS could be made into faction boons in PFS2.
I prefer the goal-oriented factions over the nation-oriented factions. I do think there are still gaps where some characters just don't feel like they fit any faction.
I think in both PFS and SFS we could do with better descriptions of the factions, their goals, and the types of missions they tend to do. I think the best would be a single page summary of all the factions and then a one page description of each faction. I could use the help when trying to explain this to a newcomer.
I would like if for lowest tier scenarios there was an undecided for faction. Allow the character a little bit of time to grow before selecting a faction. This is less important with SFS, but since only the first faction is free it still has a bearing.
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Most of my characters are not attracted to any of the factions, but going to Grand Lodge as default feels too vanilla so I pick a so-so match.
Arguably all of my characters have been interested in various factions' season goals, i.e. my actual Grand Lodge PC who should likely be in Liberty's Edge chose Grand Lodge because that season they were exploring the Mwangi (where he wanted to learn about his unknown heritage). It would be quite nice to have him help the Grand Lodge Mwangi expeditions (and gain favor with them) while also working on behalf of freedom (him being a Desnan Priest among other things).
So put me down as an SF-style factions supporter.
And I also would like Sword/Spells/Etc. branches to have factions too.