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Hi there,
I think some of you will agree that the starship rules feel a little bit clunky and artificial when it comes to designing starships.
I decided to take matter in my own hand and come up with some ideas to make it smoother and more interesting (similar to the The Stronghold Builders Guide from D&D 3.5 or Kingmaker)
Since I'm still in the process of working everything out, I want to share my ideas with you guys and hope you can help me make this working. :)
Basic ideas so far
1. untie the ship progression from the APL
2. give ship frames special qualities based on their role
3. add more freedom in the selection of ship modules
1. Untie the Progression
I know that it would not be possible to conect the ships upgrade with the normal player economy, so I decided to use a separate system based on BP for it.
BP represent a mix of spare parts, credits, deeds and other things the player need to upgrade their ship.
Player will earn BP during the game like they earn XP or credits (they should be around (Numbers are based on table 9-1 SF:CRB):
Level 1-6 20BP/level
Level 7-9 25BP/level
Level 10-12 40BP/level
Level 13-14 50BP/level
Level 14+ 100BP/level
2. Ship frame qualities
I found the ship frames a little boring so I want to give them something which defines their role a little bit.
For this I added special qualities to each ship frame, e.g.:
Racer: Racer Frames are designed for high speed engines, decrease the engine cost by 25%
Explorer: sensor range increased by 5 hexes, +2 to science officers’ rolls
Destroyer: +2 attack vs. small and tiny spaceships
3. Ship Modules
I always had a problem with how the modules work, because the player has to pay three resources for one module: BP, PCU and a module slot.
To give the players more possibilities to build their own starship I removed the module slot requirement from all modules, instead the modules will need a specific ship size or get unique restrictions.
Cargo modules will be special as their number will still be "hardcoded" to the ship frame, but their maximum cargo per module will be changed based on the ships size:
Small 25t
Medium 250t
Large 2000t
Huge 10000t
Gargantuan 50000t
With this I want to bring the cargo capacity of ships more on a believable level (similar to modern naval ships of this size).
The numbers of cargo modules of a frame is roughly the same as the current module slots (I adjusted a few and gave large+ freighter frames the ability to add additional cargo modules to their outer hull).
That's it so far.
Next will be the modules itself. I will went over every module and adapt it to my system, maybe I will also come up with some new modules. ;)
What do you guys think? Is this a good approach? Would it add something to the game? Would it give the players and DM more freedom?
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Instead of spamming the post with the complete rules I decided to gather them all in a google document.
You can find it here:
Tryn's Starship Builders Guidebook.
Feel free to read, adapt, comment, critic or share ideas.
Best would be if you post it here, so we have a nice discussion about it and bring it to the next level. ;)
I will post summaries of my updates/progresses over time.
I think my star wars game could definetly use some more freedom regarding ship building, and i'm very interested on how you will render the shuttlecraft/hangar bays modules.
I hope that PAIZO will eventually take a similar approach, or at least give more options for personalisation (and special features for every frame).
EDIT: of course by the time i posted this you already posted the document with the shuttlebay. Next time i'll refresh before posting.
What do you think of my approach to the modules and the shuttle-bay?
Do you have any ideas, suggestions how to improve the system?
It looks solid (defonetly more solid than the official one). As for suggestions, right now i'm out of ideas in the mechanics department. But a useful optional module could be something like "external docking bay" something to allow a relatively small ship (like a destroyer) to carry smaller ships (maybe a single fighter squadron).
A question: how many pods does the escape pod module give? A fixed amount or "enough for the crew? Or just one, but you can buy more?
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This is going to sound very strange to most people, but what do you mean when you say "ton." As the various definitions of ton can be as mush as 400 lbs. different, it can have a big impact on how you plan to envision a spaceship.
• The tonne (colloquially known as the "metric ton" in the United States) is a non-SI metric unit of mass equal to 1,000 kilograms / 2,204 lbs.
• The short ton (or just "ton" in the U.S.) is a unit of weight equal to 907.2 kg / 2,000 lbs.
• The long ton and shortweight ton (or "imperial ton" in the U.S.) are units of weight equal to 1016 kg / 2,240 lbs.
• The longweight ton is a unit of weight equal to 1088.6 kg / 2400 lbs.
Further complicating things, is that of the above are units of weight or mass, which is are quite different tonnage as a unit of volume. This is how the word ton is commonly encountered when dealing with shipbuilding and maritime trade. Without getting even more lost in pedantic details than we already are, ships are measured by the amount of water they displace... Which can vary between salt and fresh water, temperature, and the like.
But, basically, the displacement ton) is a unit of volume, 35 cubic feet (0.9911 cu. m.), the approximate volume occupied by one tonne of seawater. This is the most useful definition for the total size of a ship... But...
The cargo a ship carries can be measured by weight, by displacement tons, or by one of several different form of cargo capacity measurement: the freight ton is equal to 40 cubic feet (1.133 cu. m.); the register ton is 100 cu. ft. (2.832 cu. m.); the water ton is 35.96 cu. ft. (1.018 cu. m.) and rarely seen outside of the U.K. or the Commonwealth (but they account for a huge amount of maritime trade, so...); and, last but not least, the Panama Canal Ton a.k.a. Universal Measurement System which was developed for billing shipping through that canal, which works out to be 100 cu. ft. (2.8 cu. m.).
Again, we see how this can greatly impact the way a spaceship is described. A ship that can hold "one ton" of cargo might have a hold that is 2.8 cu. m. (RT or UMS) in size or a less than half that at 1.13 cu. m. (FT)... Or it might not be a defined size at all and be talking about weight! Or mass!
Personally, despite the fact that I work in the maritime trade, I think that an advanced sci-fi setting works best if you stick to strictly metric units (and standard SI units whenever possible). They just make more sense and are more readily acceptable by gamers that don't want to fret about this sort of minutia. Thus, unless specified, I assume all use of "ton" in scifi games means a metric ton 1,000 kilograms / 2,204 lbs with a volume of 1 cu. m. / 35 cu. ft. This is based on the equivalent mass and volume of water and gives us a very satisfying 7 x 7 square room when drawing our spaceships on Ye Olde 5-Foote Square combat map.
@the Glitch:
I like the idea, have to think of the shuttles from serenity.
Instead of adding a new module for it, I added an "external" version of the Shuttle bay to the normal ones, which costs a little less and need less PCU.
@Batgirl_III:
Long read, but yes finally I was thinking of the standard metric ton - so 1000 kg.
For the space it's a little more complicated, as this also depends on the ships final design (one large cargo bay, multiple smaller ones etc.), but I would stay in line here and also take the standard 1 cu. m.
P.S.: I'm European so I will always favor the standard metric system
Changes to the document:
- added the external shuttle bay (called "docking port") and added a limitation to the bay ("only one for each size category above small")
Changes to the document:
- added a section of how players can spent their BPs (buy upgrades at a shipyard or upgrade the system themself).
How many BP does a level 1 party start with?
How many BP does a level 1 party start with?
As he notes in the beginning of the linked document, his BPS work like experience or credits, so unlike in the CRB, his BPs scale with party size - the answer to your question is no longer a constant, regardless of party size.
A party of all level 1 people would start with 20 BP per member using Tryn's rules, instead of the CRB's answer of 55 flat, meaning a party of 3 or fewer members starts with a smaller budget, while a party of 4 or more has a larger one.
I haven't gone over the rest of his ruleset, but they definitely take a very different approach from the rulebook, as e.g. any Small or larger ship can hold an infinite number of gymnasiums, but a Small ship can hold 1 Medical Bay and then runs out of space, full stop. He also claims 1 metric ton equals 1 cubic meter, which is only true for water, so I assume his cargo table should simply be read as measuring volume, which is far more useful than measuring mass, as you can fit any amount of mass on a ship of any size, if you have some way to not die to the black hole I'm implying.
I really appreciate having an idea of how much volume a ship of a given size should have available for stuff, but you'd have to go over the available modules that currently consume "1 bay" and convert them individually to properly make the numbers useful - for example, once we have proper volume rules, we can finally express how large a gymnasium is, allowing a ship to have a larger or smaller gym.
Nice points everyone, quindraco especially.
I like Tryn's breakdown, though, as it gives me guidelines for building the Beowulf.
Hey, what can I say, I'm old-school.
Ok seems I get some misunderstanding here with the "BP is earned like credits/xp".
The idea is that they are still "group currency", so a level 3 group will get 20 BP in total on it's way to level 4. The idea was that the BPs can be awarded like loot for an encounter and also be spent during the encounter.
Example:
A Level 3 group completed one serious of encounters and get enough XP for the half way to level 4 (around 1350xp). The BP per Level only means that they should have got also 10 BP during these encounters (e.g. from salvaging the other ship). They can then spent these BP to upgrade their ship (before hitting level 4).
I hope this make it clearer, I just wanted to make the ship progression more smooth/natural with this (instead of getting a boost only when you have a level up).
Also a Level 1 group will start with the normal 55 BP.
For the modules, I agree that I have to add more restriction to the numbers which can be installed on ships by size (but I simply don't thought about groups which wanted to add 100 Gymns on their small shuttle^^). Also the idea for the Gymn was, that this is a unspecific number of rooms (simply enough for the crew + guests)
For the cargo bay, I agree that volumes would be more specific, but then you need deckplans for each ship, because the shape of the bays also matters then.
Because of this I though that a general rough abstraction of 1t = 1cu.m. would be more useable.
I still want to make the system playable and not to a real-life-simulation. :)
changes to the document
- added clarification about BP gain and starting BP
- added clarification for the recreational suite(s)
Next I will take a look at the weapons, especially the tracking weapons. I always found them very weak and non-logical (why can you only fire them if the enemy is within the given arc?).
My ideas:
- Tracking weapons can be fired on every enemy ship within sensor range.
- Tracking weapons need some hex to get active (maybe half their speed)
- as long as the enemy is within sensor range, the sensor bonus will be added to the tracking weapons attack roll
We tried the new tracking weapon rules this weekend and they worked really fine.
We used the following rules:
- Tracking weapons can be fired on every ship within sensor range
- Once the missile is launched, it has to travel half it speed in straight line from the firing ship, then it turns toward the target.
- no "activating time" for missiles
The players really liked the idea and I also liked it. The benefit was that the missiles could be fired every round. And because of more missile flying around, the enemies and players also had to take this into account wenn maneuvering around. :)
How does the new tracking sistem handle micromissile batteries and other (i hope more will come) array weapons?
Very good question, we didn't use them in this encounter.
As far as I understand:
The idea of the "array" ability is that the weapon system fires/launches dozens of projectiles/missiles/beams to hit each target in the arc.
So I would rule it this way:
Make attack rolls vs. all enemies in sensor range and then after the first round handle each missile like a single tracking weapon (have to think of the missiles in Gundam^^).
I don't think this would make the micro missile OP, they already have a reduced damage (compared to other TW) and limited fire (5).
So ignore "The gunner can’t avoid shooting at allies in the firing arc"? What about an "advanced targeting system" computer module? Something that makes you ignore a number of targets equal to the numeric bonus the computer gives.
Damn it, totally missed that point with the friendly fire, but I think it's not that big problem if we simply remove it.
If the missiles were unguided i could understand it, but since the micro-missiles are guided and can follow their target over several rounds, not having a FoF system in them makes no sense.
About the targeting computer:
I already thought about such an upgrade, but decided against it, since I don't want to go into to much micro-management regarding the ship modules/equipment (no "+1 Bonus to X" etc.)
Thanks. I'm currently looking for playtesting the changes, but my group isn't that enthuseastic about reading rules and put in effort beside of when we at the table, so it will take some time.
One thing I also thinking of is changing the Armor System. Simply because at high levels armor really becomes redundant since the attack rolls get so high that you will auto-hit all the time. Maybe a DR System would be more appropriate here.
Yeah, I think that is a relict of old (A)D&D times and a missed attack roll don't mean you didn't hit, it means you didn't do any damage (because of this there was a touch AC in D&D/PF)
Brainstorming:
5. Defenses
There are two types of Defenses, Armor and Electronic Countermeasures.
Electronic Countermeasures make it more difficult to lock on to the ship, while Armor reduce the incoming damage.
The Level of ECM will be added to the ships TL, increasing the difficulty of a tracking weapon to lock on to the ship. (like in the standard rules)
The normal Armor will be working as a DR against ALL damages as soon as the shields are gone (including tracking weapon damage). The amount of DR is equal to twice the armor level.
The normal AC of a ship is based on the Pilots piloting skills and the science officers computer skills (rotating shield frequencies, relocate energy etc.).
AC = 10 + Pilot + ½ Tier + Size + Misc
- This calculation will keep the chance to hit for a master gunner at ~85% and at 65% for a good gunner (with the evade maneuver the players can reduce it to 65% / 45% (we play with a "Evade = +2AC (+1 per every DC +5, max +4)" - rule)
- I also thought about giving he Armor DR some mechanic like the stone skin spell (a total maximum of damage it can absorb), but I think this would add too much new numbers to the game.
Update: Added new armor rules and revised crew actions (based on LeeSw Post) to the document
Yeah this idea is still alive. :)
Added new crew actions (Improved Defense (Science Officer) and Improved Armor (Engineer)).
Also working on adding "ships types". These define the basic building/operation principles a ship was designed of (like the biomechanical ships from the Pact Worlds Book).
So far I think of limit it to three types:
Tech ships (the standard spaceship)
Biomechanical ships (see Pact Worlds Book)
Magic Ships (Ships systems mainly based on magic)
Hybrid Ships (combination of two of the above)
I'm currently thinking of benefits and flaws for each ship type (so if you have ideas feel free to post them^^).
Dot.
Doing something similar myself, and always interested in other people's points of view
Long time no see. :)
Hadn't a Starfinder group in a while, but started a new one a few weeks ago (five people, including 4 people new to the system and 2 new to P&P RPGs).
They are now Level 2 (short before 3) and we had our first starship combat.
Unfortunately it didn't went soo good. While the pilot and science officer/engineer had a some fun, the two soldiers (gunners) were a little bit bored, because they only had to "push the button".
So I'm planning to tackle the gunner role next, make it more interesting, giving the gunners more options to chose from.
I'm not yet sure how to tackle this, but I want to have something for the next starship combat.
Ability ideas so far:
1. Target Sub-Systems (1 RP): Deal temporary crit damage (1 round +1 round per AC +5) to one specific system if you penetrate the shield, but deal no damage to the hull.
The time can be reduced by 1 round by the enemies engineer by using the "Patch" action (+1 round for each DC +5)
2. Tachyon Warhead: The gunner can modify a tracking weapons warhead to deliver a three hex diameter tachyon cloud. A ship within this cloud can’t be targeted and can’t target other ships with any actions (attack, scan, communication etc.).
If a tachyon cloud is between two ships the DC of each action against the other ship is increased by the number of damage dices of the warhead.
A tachyon cloud last for a number of rounds equal to the number of damage dices of the warhead.
I really like the idea of giving the gunners the ability to alter their weapons to do something else then damage. :)