Best bloodrager dip for skald


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So slowly working on my skald and finally at the point of adding a level of bloodrager with the feat amplified rage. Since I'm take a dip and slowing my skald down I want to make sure not to regret it. So first I'm looking at a greensting scorpian familiar with valet and figment. Taking the feat go unnoticed and plan to keep on my person, meeting the adjacent condition for amplified rage, also grants me +4 init, the alertness feat and can use fast healing 1 5x per day. I'm thinking about going urban bloodrager so I can still gain +8 str, +4 con but no will bonus and no ac penalty. Then to add to that thinking maybe go blood conduit for improved trip. The Skald is fated champion, main weapon is a Bardiche and taken combat reflexes.. gonna sell the med armor and go with light armor for now since I'm losing the speed boost but no ac penalty. Dex is 14 atm and str is 16


Wait? +8 str,+4 con?

Does that mean that you intend to stack your rage and rage performance? Can those even stack? I am not that familiar on the interaction.

Grand Lodge

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No amplified rage adds +4 str and con on top of rage. Skald rage song allow you to use other rage stats if you have them. Valet familiar is use to share amplified rage.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Are you already 5th level as a Skald? I ask because you really want to get Spell Kenning as soon as possible. Delaying it an extra level would be regrettable.

If you are only doing a small dip in Bloodrager, go with the normal Bloodrager (no archetypes) since you aren’t going to get any powers out of it.


Grandlounge wrote:
No amplified rage adds +4 str and con on top of rage. Skald rage song allow you to use other rage stats if you have them. Valet familiar is use to share amplified rage.

Ah. I see, so it is from the teamwork feat. Yeah, so that why I didn't recognize it.


Sorry lemeres, thought saying the valet familiar and amplified rage explained it.

@Bretl I had the same thought, but went the opposite direction. Since I am only taking the one level of bloodrager, how much can i get from it? First priority is of course the familiar, since it will only ever be level 1 it will never actively participate. With figment I took the +8 to stealth he has a 27 stealth and with go unnoticed he hides right off. The concept is that this character is from the dessert and the scorpion hides in his robes. Now losing speed hurts but I'm really stretched on feats, the idea of getting improved trip for a reach build is enticing. I'm not sure if urban would allow you to switch the rage bonus or not but not taking the ac penalty would be nice. But not 100% sold.

The character is different most at the table are surprised to find a half orc without darkvision but he has been fun. Any other opinions on the dip?


ekibus wrote:
Sorry lemeres, thought saying the valet familiar and amplified rage explained it.

Ah, no. It was more because I am unfamiliar with teamwork feats- I have gained an appreciation after seeing how hunters can use it to cheese out fantastic attacks (they are true masters of 'single character teamwork feats' after all), but I certainly do not delve in deep enough to look at things for other specific classes (ie- rage classes).


Can't have both figment and valet, because both archtypes replace the same familiar class features "Deliver Touch Spells; Speak with Animals of its Kind; and Scry on Familiar", or do familiar archtypes not follow the same rules as class archtypes?

Dark Archive

The Half Orc Bloodrager 1/Skald X, Amplified Rage, Valet Familiar is the general theme/build for my emerald spire character since I thought getting massive bonuses from my song might be a bit too powerful for other PFS scenarios. Whereas bringing a brute to a literal massive dungeon crawl isn't nearly as bad or disruptive to normal play.

What I did was go Urban Bloodrager/Urban Skald. That way I can get a +4 STR/+4 DEX/+4 CON and be more well rounded. The song I give out is a +2 DEX song so there is literally no reason for people not to take it. I have coupled that with the Spirit Totem line of rage powers because I can get a decent number of extra little hits in from those spirits. I imagine that at higher levels the totems won't be as good due to DR, but at that point they are effectively adding blur vs. reach and ranged weapons which will improve everyone's ability to survive.

For traits you likely want Fate's Favoured and the Orc alternate racial trait so you get a +2 Luck bonus to all saves. The other trait should definitely be Community Minded (basically lingering performance sans rage powers for the skald).

You won't get much from the bloodrager dip in terms of bloodline abilities since you are giving up your 1st level ability to get the familiar. I would strongly recommend picking the Aberrant bloodline so the familiar gets the squeezer ability. This prevents mean GMs from claiming you aren't adjacent or state you must be squeezed with your familiar.

Another thing to consider is getting a 5 lb, 3000gp MSW tool made of Singing Steel. This will drop the action economy of starting your performance by 1 level (standard to move to swift). I usually use a standard to start and move 15ft away with a reach weapon to get an AoO. But if you think you'd be better to start as a move and cast as a standard (e.g., mirror images) then you have that option. At L8 of the build it'll drop to a swift and you'll be laughing all the way home.

The feats I've taken are listed below. I have avoided Skald's Vigor as Fast healing 2 isn't that amazing for me (since I am doing a 4/4/4 split vs. a 8/0/8 split). If you do go for a 8/0/8 build then fast healing 4 should be something to consider. Just expect table variation on whether it will be a fast healing 2 or 4 since the wording suggests it should only be the modifier from what the song provides (note that is without the amplified rage boost).

Feats:
1 - Amplified Rage
2 - Diefic Obedience Irori (+4 to knowledge skills in ES is more knowledge than what most PCs bring so I can actually figure out what the hell we are fighting).
3 - Shake It Off (effectively a +1 Untyped Bonus to all saves since his saves aren't so great).

Dark Archive

lemeres wrote:
Grandlounge wrote:
No amplified rage adds +4 str and con on top of rage. Skald rage song allow you to use other rage stats if you have them. Valet familiar is use to share amplified rage.
Ah. I see, so it is from the teamwork feat. Yeah, so that why I didn't recognize it.

While Spell Knealing is powerful, being able to get a +8 STR/+8 CON or +4 STR/+4 DEX/+4 CON is far more powerful in the early levels.


ekibus wrote:
thinking about going urban bloodrager so I can still gain +8 str, +4 con but no will bonus and no ac penalty.
Since it's a dip, and you're not required to be lawful, barbarian[savage technologist] will grant even higher AC plus the will save.
Quote:
main weapon is a Bardiche and taken combat reflexes

Vault Boy Thumb Up.

Red Griffyn wrote:
While Spell Knealing is powerful, being able to get a +8 STR/+8 CON or +4 STR/+4 DEX/+4 CON is far more powerful in the early levels.

Yup. Skalds also get Use Magic Device. They got options.


Ah didnt catch the valet/figment issue (darn hero lab) Thanks Childeric.

@Lemeres..I didn't really think too much of teamwork feats until I played a inquisitor

@Red Griffyn I would assume that since the familiar was tiny it wouldn't be a problem. Mainly I'm trying to get the effects without actually having to worry about it. Hero lab is for some reason not agreeing with me, I took urban bloodrager but it is giving the skald the controlled rage instead. That is one thing I'm wondering about with the controlled rage can you actually move that around? As in rage and move to dex or str? The +4 spread is nice but trying to go a bruiser route. So the +8 by default but the ability to move it to dex in a tough spot would be really nice. I was gonna go the spirit route but then decided with the bruiser route I might be better off with the Beast totem line for claws (in case they get in my reach, better AC and pounce. I plan to take the extra rage feat to get a personal rage power (superstition) to give myself +2 with +1 every 4 lvls.
The singing steel is pretty nice too bad there is a downtime but definitely gonna get it. What does msw stand for though? Plan to do a 8/0/4 by default until lvl 9 and then 8/0/8 Probably get skald vigor at that point for the fast healing 4. Talked to the gm I normally play with in PFS and her definition was +2 base...another reason I'm worried about the urban skald is because I dont want to lose the str bonus for vigor. Do you think it is worth the loss of speed for the improved trip option?

@Slim jim The savage technologist is pretty sweet but I need bloodrager for the familiar. Kinda built on that idea =/

Grand Lodge

Grab 3 level holy tactician paladin of Ragathiel and share amplified rage with all your allies !!!
Skald is all about share buffing. Why all the trouble with amplified rage only for your self?


We are talking 1 lvl dip vs 3 levels.. while sharing amplified rage with everyone, as mentioned before most will not accept it... so why attempt it. I do need to do some research on the song of people's revolt but there seems to be a argument if you combine the masterpiece with inspired rage. Honestly this character isn't normal, heck he is a half orc with no darkvision. I like the idea of him buffing the party and ripping opponents apart.. if I'm playing with a party of wizards... well I'll still rip things apart. He is after all a skald and not a bard ;)

Grand Lodge

Quote:
your morale bonuses to Strength and Constitution increase by +4.

Urban only gets the str bonus and only does so if they take a strengths bonus.

Amplifies rage increases "your morale bonuses" no morale bonus no stat increase. It is best with standard rage.


Ah missed the fine print that it increases the boost. Hmm back to the -2 ac. But again I really want some opinion on this. Is it worth losing the +10 speed for improved trip?

Grand Lodge

I only like improved trip if you are getting greater later.

Otherwise I would just spring loaded wrist sheath a wand of blade lash.


Hmm not as good as i was hoping.. I can bypass expertise to get the feat, but i would need expertise to get any of the other feats in the chain. The feat requirement would be too high

Grand Lodge

Dirty Fighting feat will work as prerequest for improved trip and greater trip.


Problem is I'm looking at a shortage of feats:
lvl 1 Combat reflexes
lvl 3 amplified rage
lvl 5 power attack
lvl 7 extra rage power (superstition)
lvl 9 skald vigor
lvl 11 Greater skald vigor

Grand Lodge

ekibus wrote:

Problem is I'm looking at a shortage of feats:

lvl 1 Combat reflexes
lvl 3 amplified rage
lvl 5 power attack
lvl 7 extra rage power (superstition)
lvl 9 skald vigor
lvl 11 Greater skald vigor

Jep - common problem when you want to. combine two builds


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Feat-starving fated champion
Dipping deep in words of verse
Know your kennings, know your classes
That you'll death in rage disperse

If for flavour you are searching
Swans of blood will willingly serve
Swing the raven's feeder swiftly
and your enemies end ensure

Bloodragers are born of battle
Familiar to fey and kin
Share your rage and ramp it upwards
Do it early - fight, and win

Skalds will seldom fight flat-footed
Consider then what gain you'll get
If investing in reflexes
Half a feat you may forget

Thus, my bellowed battle-brother
Rend redundancies from fate
Read the tapestry, relish strength, and
scratch "reflexes" off thine slate

----

A suggestion from a servant -
Raven's claws cause quite a stir
Orcish origins, tough and tusky
Bite / Claw / Claw is sure to hurt

Thusly bring thine foes to tremble
Send them to the sleep of swords
But don't postpone your poet's duty
The plural of skald (and wizard) is WAR


In case it wasn't obvious from the prose:

My suggestion is to skip Combat Reflexes in favour of Amplified Rage at level 1 (since you'll get a partially similar benefit from Uncanny Dodge later on anyway), and dip into Hag-Riven Bloodrager for both the free familiar (extra style points if it is a raven), the rage boosts, and the constant natural attacks. I'd still carry a reach weapon to get an AoO as people close in on you, and then drop the weapon, to take advantage of your +8 STR bonus on multiple attacks, and Bite / Claw / Claw the opposition into ruin. (You have to be a Half-Orc for Amplified Rage anyway, so you can get that routine going pretty easily)

Also, Kennings are pretty nifty, if you really want to get into the RP-aspect behind the class.

Good luck!


Sorry been a busy and I try to write when I can actually semi-collect my thoughts.
@*Khan* Agreed it is slim but the reward is pretty nice. A min 24 puts him on pretty good footing for offense. By lvl 12 I would give anyone who accepts the rage +4 str/ Dr 1/- a +3 natural armor/ claws if they want them along with pounce oh and fast healing 4..not to mention having haste (among other bard goodies) I think he fits the goal he might not do as much damage as a bbn or as much skill as the bard but he is pretty darn close.
@Haralðr Magnusson Very nice :) I agree that uncanny does cover half the equation of combat reflexes... but the other option is having the ability to get 3 attacks of opp. I'm leaning towards the beast totem line so I will get claws in another level. Sadly I'm not sure how I feel towards that though, He is roughly a third generation half orc that was taken under the wing of a shaman but basically left pretty quickly. He is a very watered down half orc without any darkvision (took skilled for +1 skill point) He is from Rahadoum so he is more of a desert type skald, He has a scorpion familiar which tends to hide in the fold of his robes. Even though superstitious fits the character I'm debating on freeing up that feat

Dark Archive

Grandlounge wrote:
Quote:
your morale bonuses to Strength and Constitution increase by +4.

Urban only gets the str bonus and only does so if they take a strengths bonus.

Amplifies rage increases "your morale bonuses" no morale bonus no stat increase. It is best with standard rage.

That is a semantics debate. No bonus is equivalent to a bonus of +0 with respect to addition and subtraction computations.

Grand Lodge

If you have a morale bonus and you get another one they do not stack, so a special clause is necessary.

If you have a bonus to increase and you get an increase it functions.

If we take furious for example it contains language to allow an increase without the need for an initial bonus, "+2 better than normal" this functions as an addition in absence of an initial bonus. This is the same bane.

Arcane pool allows stacking explicitly.

If your logic was correct fate's favored would be a +1 to every roll because there is a 0 luck bonus.


Grandlounge wrote:
If your logic was correct fate's favored would be a +1 to every roll because there is a 0 luck bonus.

Well, no. Fates Favored lists that it requires a luck effect be in place before it kicks in.

Fate’s Favored

The fates watch over you.

Benefit: Whenever you are under the effect of a luck bonus of any kind, that bonus increases by 1.

Amplified Rage requires rage to kick in, and most times if something kicks in with Rage, it doesn't matter what the modifier was before.

Amplified Rage (Teamwork)

Prerequisites: Half-orc or orc, rage class feature.

Benefit: Whenever you are raging and adjacent to a raging ally who also has this feat or flanking the same opponent as a raging ally with this feat, your morale bonuses to Strength and Constitution increase by +4. This feat does not stack with itself (you only gain this bonus from one qualifying ally, regardless of how many are adjacent to you).

I'm not sure that Controlled Rage counts as Rage for Amplified Rage though. Nothing says it does.

Grand Lodge

"That bonus is increased" that is a pronoun referring to "a luck bonus" which is to be increased.

"Your morale bonus to strength and constitution increased by +4"

Again your bonus is increased. It is a specific type of bonus luck or morale. These are written with nearly identical language. For either to work you have to have a bonus to increase.

You can't assume you get a +0 morale bonus be increased. You can not, in either case, increase a bonus you don't have. Remember we are walking about getting the con bonus when you use a form of rage that does not offer a con bonus.

If you can show me a rule that says by default the absence of a bonus is considered having +0 morale, luck, enhancement etc. I will happily conceded the point.

I will read follow up but I won't derail the thread further if some on want to make an faq I will click it.


I think it might stem from the wording in Barkskin and similar spells, since it states that "a creature without natural armor has an effective natural armor bonus of +0."? That's the first thing that comes to mind.


Grandlounge wrote:
You can't assume you get a +0 morale bonus be increased.

Well, it isn't flat out spelled in the rules so you have to assume something. Your assumption seems off because instead of doing what it says it does, gives a +4 to str/con, you're suggesting it does nothing. It seems more like it would do what it says it does. And it isn't like there is anything in the rules that says it works the way you think it does. Anyone might be right, but it isn't a settled issue we have to prove you wrong on.


I found the skald to be one of the classes that seems to have the most conflicted rules. Like how skald's vigor applies to amplified rage for example. If it was a normal game I would just hit up the gm and be done. PFS unfortunately you run into table variance. So thinking the best idea is to be conservative. But urban bloodrager would be nice


ekibus wrote:
I found the skald to be one of the classes that seems to have the most conflicted rules. Like how skald's vigor applies to amplified rage for example. If it was a normal game I would just hit up the gm and be done. PFS unfortunately you run into table variance. So thinking the best idea is to be conservative. But urban bloodrager would be nice

I would say the most conservative ruling is that Controlled Rage doesn't count as rage, so it doesn't work.


I don't think loss of fast movement is worth going urban in any case.

I was looking at this combo and determined that once you hit 8th level skald (which is admittedly high for PFS), you are going to do skald rage, because +4STR/+4CON/+3Will/-1AC is better than +4STR. Arguably, even at 4th level, +2STR/+2CON/+2Will/-1AC, is better than +4STR.

Grand Lodge

dunelord3001 wrote:
Grandlounge wrote:
You can't assume you get a +0 morale bonus be increased.
Well, it isn't flat out spelled in the rules so you have to assume something. Your assumption seems off because instead of doing what it says it does, gives a +4 to str/con, you're suggesting it does nothing. It seems more like it would do what it says it does. And it isn't like there is anything in the rules that says it works the way you think it does. Anyone might be right, but it isn't a settled issue we have to prove you wrong on.

That not what the rules say at all and not what my reading says. The feat does what it says it does, it increases a bonus exactly like fate's favored. If you don't have a bonus it can't increase it.

If a feat said increase all morale bonus by +2. What would a first level fighter get? What would a first level raging barbarian get?
What would a ragingskald with heroism get? People can house rule this to be written as furious "+4 better then normal" but it does not currently say that.

You cannot increase a bonus you don't have. This applies to this feat, fate's favored and any similar ability if they have not written in an exception like bane. If you want to use the feat to it's full effect you need to use a standard rage. It is perfectly plausible that this feat is designed with only standard rage in mind. Like a how there are a bunch of bravery feats that don't work with some fighters.

Barkskin and magic vestment require special language to all treating things as zero when they have no bonus.

I have shown parallel rules, and adjacent rules that show that increasing bonuses has specific language that simply is not present here.

Grand Lodge

dunelord3001 wrote:
ekibus wrote:
I found the skald to be one of the classes that seems to have the most conflicted rules. Like how skald's vigor applies to amplified rage for example. If it was a normal game I would just hit up the gm and be done. PFS unfortunately you run into table variance. So thinking the best idea is to be conservative. But urban bloodrager would be nice
I would say the most conservative ruling is that Controlled Rage doesn't count as rage, so it doesn't work.

From controlled rage:

"A controlled bloodrage still counts as a bloodrage for the purposes of any spells, feats, and other effects"


@Grandlounge - Repeating yourself doesn't prove you're right. It still seems odd to think the feat doesn't do what it says it does because reasons. Even if you're right, and I don't think you are, it still seems odd.


stick with pure skald you loose to much and gain very little when dipping with 6th and 9th level casters

Grand Lodge

dunelord3001 wrote:
@Grandlounge - Repeating yourself doesn't prove you're right. It still seems odd to think the feat doesn't do what it says it does because reasons. Even if you're right, and I don't think you are, it still seems odd.

When you offer no rules evidence for your reading, your reading flatly goes against the words written and, are based on the idea that "odd to think the feat doesn't do what it says it does because reasons" when you are the one suggesting that its effect goes beyond what the world's literally mean is not a strong argument.

I'm working with the strictest interpretations of the rules.

There are lots of feats that have been released that don't work, work in weird ways, or don't work with archtypes. For example expert trainer does not get weapon training it get a feature very similar that gains none of the benifit of weapons training.

Finally you made. The claim that fate's favored "requires a luck effect be in place before it kicks in." Then went on to say "requires rage to kick in, and most times if something kicks in with Rage, it doesn't matter what the modifier was before." The second part is flatly wrong it requires rage, and a morale bonus as the feat says.

You then fails to read controlled rage.

I was honestly unsure if you were struggling to understand the actual rules, how your reading is incongruent with dozens of other rules, or if your just very confident in you position.


amplified rage does not boost any stats you don't actually get so if you go urban and get a dex bonus while raging it does nothing for you where as if you pick str the str gets boosted by +4 but nothing else goes up because there's nothing to go up however if you somehow had an item that gave you a +1 moral bonus to constitution then it would increase it by the +4 because it doesn't state the bonus needs to be from the rage just that it happens when you are raging and near an ally with the feat and if you stick with the normal barbarian rage you would get both with out needing a special item


Grandlounge wrote:
You then fails to read controlled rage.

I did, and then I stopped bring it up when I was shown to be wrong. Just like you made the mistake of using the word fails instead of failed and then you didn't bring it up anymore. People make typos, they read things wrong. It happens, it doesn't mean anything except we are humans.

You seem to want an argument I'm not interested in, mainly because you seem vaguely insulting and act like I have some obligation to assume an internet is right. I get that your logic is, "No bonus is not a +0 bonus." It seems like you REALLY don't get that I understand, but disagree with your idea because I think mine is better. You don't seem to follow the logic of "the feat says it does stuff, so I think it does instead of mostly doing nothing at all, more so because wow it's kind of hard to use to begin with." I've said it could be either way.

Dunelord wrote:
Anyone might be right, but it isn't a settled issue

So, run it however you want but going back and forth when you can't see the other sides is pointless. The only official way to get it settled is an FAQ. Best of luck.

Grand Lodge

My apologies I definitely see how the way I wrote that sounded very condescending. I'm really sorry about it. I was not my intent.

I was trying to express that I could not understand if you were not understand or just disagreed. Pathfinder has a lot of rules an either was possible. Butnindid so poorly.

You also do make a good point about "No bonus is not a +0 bonus."

I really should have written "no morale bonus is not the same a a morale bonus of +0." I don't expect that would change you mind but it is defiantly a better way of expressing myself.


It's fine.


Yeah let's not even touch the debate on skald's vigor :P I'll play it safe and just go with the +8 str/con.. The +4 hp per level along with the ability to heal while raging makes it a lot more appealing than a normal bbn. Still trying to figure out "a 5 lb, 3000gp MSW tool made of Singing Steel." Need to reread it but thinking if I could go one or two 5ibs bracelets that I could click them together. Expensive but might be useful

Grand Lodge

If it is for PFS you can only use "Singing steel armor, shields, and weapons are legal for play, but other items made of singing steel are not."

It's good a low levels. Once you can use your song as a move action it does not do much. You are more likely to have a swift action ability to compete with the swift action song which leads you to use your move for the song.


Ah that sucks. Armor would be nice but too expensive and taking it off to shine it seems suicidal

Grand Lodge

It's a little expensive. My skald is level 9 PFS AC of 17 while raging. My armor is +1 spell storing breast plate (fridge touch). Between fast healing, extend pre-cast mirror image, I have not had too many close calls.

I would look into bardic masterpieces (though another questionable set of rules) but there are several that are useful at most tables. Triple time masterpiece, Lay of Scholar-King for those early scenario knowledge checks, The Requiem of the Fallen Priest-King, Symphony of the Elysian Heart.


Yeah kinda frustrating How many rules are iffy. Thought about masterpieces but nobody seemed sure if you can do the rage and the masterpiece simultaneously

Grand Lodge

I used community minded so it did not matter as much. The rage powers go down, bonuses stay, but freedom of movement can be a lifesaver.

Lay of Scholar-King is used out of combat.

The Requiem of the Fallen Priest-King is an insurance policy against bad initiative rolls. Basically give "pounce (swift action move + full attack)" if folks move before you.

They are still useable even with the most conservative ruling but can be a pain.


ekibus wrote:
Yeah kinda frustrating How many rules are iffy. Thought about masterpieces but nobody seemed sure if you can do the rage and the masterpiece simultaneously

Just use lingering performance and community-minded. Get yourself a singing-steel weapon/shield/armor ASAP. Combine it with Song of the Peoples Revolt (amplified rage) and cast Moment of Greatness and you should be able to kill everything.

Sure you won't be getting that sweet sweet skalds vigor bonus and you will spend the first 3 rounds doing nothing, but this is one way to get this build online early level.

I am actually playing this build at the moment with the Armor as DR and Wounds and Vigor system. I have a half-orc barbarian in the party as well and the whole party put money aside so I could buy my singing-steel greatsword as early as level 3. Since level 5 all combat started with me:

[round 1]
Start raging song (move)
Cast moment of greatness (standard)
[round 2]
Start Song of the people's revolt amplified rage (move)
Cast summon minor monster [skunk] (standard)
----- I have the Linnorm Death Curse, Crag rage power and a dragon sorcerer in the party. Skunks debuff the BBEG and he kills them, giving him vulnerability to fire (also the magus uses a flaming sword and the archer uses flaming arrows.) -----

And I must say: I am strongly considering switching characters. We are with a big group (6 man party+1d3 skunks) and buffing half of them with rage and having 2 characters with a 32 strength and 32 con in the party isn't as much fun as it sounds. The only reason why I don't is because the whole party build their builds around mine. Even my raging song is RP-ed my character standing in the back telling everyone what to do.

Grand Lodge

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If you are interested Mark Seifter weighed in here so at least that is one fewer confusing rules.

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