Velah |
So with the help of a couple people on the Pathfinder/Starfinder Character Conversion group on Facebook, I've got a great idea for a Half-Swording stance. I'd love to hear what others think of it.
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Half-Sword Stance feat line:
Half-Sword Style [Combat, Style]
--Pre-Req: Weapon Training (Heavy Blades or Light Blades), Weapon Focus, Weapon Versatility
--Benefit: While in Half-Sword Stance Apply double your Weapon Training (Heavy Blades or Light Blades) bonus to Hit against people wearing heavier armor than you while wielding a weapon from one of the respective groups.
Half-Sword Mordhau [Combat]
--Pre-Req: Half-Sword Stance, Base Attack Bonus +6, Power Attack, Weapon Specialization, Combat Stamina
--Benefit: While in Half-Sword Stance you may perform a Mordhau strike with a weapon from the Heavy Blades or Light Blades weapon group. Resolve this as a Combat Maneuver. If successful, apply damage as if you struck them with the weapon but bludgeoning and they become dazed for 1 round. If you beat their CMD by 10 or more: Staggered instead. If you beat their CMD by 15 or more: Stunned Instead.
Half-Sword Coup De Grace [Combat]
--Pre-req: Half-Sword Stance, Half-Sword Mordhau, Improved Critical, Push the Limits
--Benefit: While in Half-Sword Stance and wielding a weapon from the Heavy Blades or Light Blades group: You may now deliver a Mordhau maneuver in place of an attack in a full attack action. If you successfully hit with your Mordhau you may spend 5 Stamina for your next attack resolved against them to be instead performed as a Combat Maneuver. If you succeed, immediately resolve a Coup De Grace against the target.
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As written, a Human Fighter would be able to achieve the third feat in this line by 8th level if they take nothing but prerequisites.
Velah |
Dammit my post was lost! I will repost it later.
I'm all for adding the murder stroke to the game.
I will quickly add that I think the first ability needs the most revision and the next two are more of a power level thing. Anyways later I will post more in depth.
Awesome, looking forward to hearing it.
Lemartes |
Okay, first let me say that I applaud the attempt to add in fighting based on real world techniques into the game. Unfortunately there is a ton of misinformation on this topic made all the more tricky by legitimate sources saying different things. ie: Fencing manuals written by one fencing master that might call a certain weapon one thing and another master might call it something else. Etc.
So opinions may vary on this topic and that doesn't mean that someone is necessarily right or wrong. Further I'm in no way saying that I'm an authority on this, nor am I being snobby just critical in a constructive way, and I’m probably saying a lot stuff people already know. :)
So my first thought is that this system is not really conducive to what you're trying to do here.
As we all know armour works in a few ways, deflection and absorption. With absorption dissipating the force over a larger area and sometimes deforming under said force further reducing it like a crumple zone in a car. Sometime more than one of these things happens at once.
However, in Pathfinder armour really only works by deflection. If armour also had damage resistance then this would be a lot easier.
So out of the gate the first ability seems a bit wonky to me. Why does the other person have to have heavier armour than you? Ideally yes it was mainly used knight vs knight in the later periods of armour but if I'm armoured or not it shouldn't matter at least in game. Half swording is most applicable vs heavy armour but that isn't the only time you'd use it. In tight areas when you could not swing your sword, it was also used to set up for tripping your opponent. Finally it should also do piercing damage.
Therefore, it should be done with an applicable weapon long sword, bastard sword or two handed sword. (I'm not getting into what PF calls swords vs what they are called in real life.)
Next I think it should negate armour bonuses. You're aiming for eye holes or underneath the armpit where you'd hit the mail "voiders" on a gambeson, well at least in the later periods. So I think it should have a way of ignoring armour bonuses but not shield bonuses for balance reasons and a shield is obstructive enough that I’m okay with it still working. So mechanically how do we negate the armour bonus? My initial thought was to have some sort of reverse power attack that did less damage but was more accurate up to the maximum of the armour. But I don’t like that either. Now I’m thinking of using a combat maneuver to entirely negate an armour’s armour bonus and any DR it’s providing. The armour should give a bonus to the CMD equal to half its AC bonus (round up or down I’m not sure) not including enhancement bonuses. So magic makes the armour tougher but it doesn’t help when you hit where it isn’t covering. Guess that only makes sense for the eye slots and not the armpit attack but game balance and stuff! ;)
I think it should also allow a tripping attack or a bonus to trip? This might change prerequisites.
So to sum up for the first feat: Applicable weapons mentioned above, do piercing damage, combat maneuver to negate AC bonuses including enhancement bonuses as well as DR but not shield bonuses, armour gives a bonus to CMD equal to half its AC bonus not including enhancement bonuses vs this maneuver and something to do with tripping. This way it can be used vs any armour but would not be very useful against say padded armour unless it was +5 padded armour that may or may not have DR.
I don’t think I have many complaints for the next two feats except I’m not sure how well they are balanced. I think the Coup De Grace is a bit early.
Here is my suggestion to somehow put in over the next two feats. I think there should be some way of using what I posted in the first feat more than once per round, I think there should be a way of doing bludgeoning damage. I’m not opposed to staggering or dazing.
As for the kill shot, another way besides the “murder stroke” was that after you tripped your opponent you could stick them with your sword and put your full weight behind it to punch through their armour. So if not a Coup De Grace maybe a free shot on your opponent after you trip them? Possibly one that negates some or all of the armour bonus and may or may not damage your opponent’s armour? Maybe it makes sense to not get a shield bonus vs that attack either?
So I gave a fairly specific recommendation for the first feat and some general ideas for the next two. A lot of tweaking etc is needed for everything I said. With any luck you find my ideas some use. :)
Velah |
All good suggestions. In order, my initial idea was for the stance to provide a flat bonus to hit over armor depending on its level. Perhaps +2 vs Medium and +3 vs Heavy. The people who helped me with this on Facebook suggested using the weapon training bonus, which I thought was a bit more generous and made this path a desirable one for a primary build focus.
Depending on the armor bonus, fully negating it might be a bit much. Perhaps it only negates half of the flat bonus before Dex? In addition to my earlier idea of a flat hit bonus vs Medium or Heavy, that is. Or perhaps the hit bonus is half of your weapon training bonus, rather than double?
Maybe the stance also provides a circumstacial bonus to CMB attempts made to trip? Possibly the same bonus as whatever the hit bonus ends up being.
As for the reverse power attack damage, what if it simply does piercing damage as if the weapon were one size category smaller?
In the case of changing the Coup De Grace, as I understand it, that shouldn't be too OP as in order to do it, you have to first succeed at two CMBs, and then the CDG itself is another check. Being gated behind multiple checks is its own balancing factor.
Lemartes |
Sorry I didn't have time for a proper response earlier. Anyways, I think I have a better handle on what to do. Or at least I have a rough idea with suggestions for this feat chain. I thought about what I originally said and then I did some math and I think it was actually an under powered feat chain.
I like to design more rules light stuff and this sort of demands more rules and it's not something that the system handles well. I do like the smaller size category weapon damage idea you had.
Note that I'm going a bit away from trying to emulate half-swording exactly in an effort to simplify and easier balance the feat chain. (I'm not going to worry about prerequisites for the most part. I'm also not going to worry about using language similar to other feats as I don't have that much time to spare. Ideally this needs a lot more work.) That being said here is what I've come up with.
Half-Sword Style [Combat, Style] (Note: Must being using a long sword, bastard sword or two handed sword, estoc etc. to use any of the effects of these feats in this feat chain.)
While in Half Sword stance you deal piercing damage and deal damage as if one size category lower for your weapon(unless using an estoc). You also get a +1 bonus to attack. Further if you confirm a critical hit you have the option of ignoring the extra damage and getting a free trip attack vs your opponent without provoking AO's. If you choose to accept the extra critical damage then your attack also ignores any DR that any armour your opponent is wearing provides. You may not use power attack while in this stance.
Half-Sword Mordhau [Combat] (Should have a BAB of at least +6)
You are now capable of executing the Murder Stroke and get a +2 bonus to attack while in half-swording stance but no bonus in Mordhau stance, your damage die is not reduced in Mordhau stance. As a swift action you may adjust the grip on your sword from the standard half-swording stance to the Mordhau stance or back. You may start this combat style in either stance. While in Mordhau stance you do bludgeoning damage and may use power attack. If you score a critical hit while in Mordhau stance while using power attack your attack ignores any DR that any armour your opponent is wearing provides. Further, the opponent must succeed at a fortitude(not sure of how difficult the save should be) save or become staggered until the start of your next turn.
(Alternatively, I was thinking that you could also do a combat maneuver to ignore any armour based DR and AC bonus as I had in the earlier post. You would get it for all attacks you did against that opponent that round and they would get a bonus to their CMD equal to their non-enhanced AC bonus of their armour(or maybe better to be half that bonus?). I'm not sure if that can be added to the above without making it too powerful or if you replace something for it. Of if it's just a stupid idea. I would also think that it would make more sense for the half-sword stance.)
Half-Sword Coup De Grace [Combat] BAB +12
In Half-Sword stance you are now +3 to attack. If you are in either Half-Sword Stance or Mordhau stance at the start of a turn where your opponent was staggered, dazed or stunned last turn or is under any of those conditions this turn you may execute a special combat maneuver as a full round action(without provoking AO's). (Or maybe if you crit instead this option comes up under those circumstances.) If in Half-Sword stance you trip your opponent and may preform a Coup De Grace on them. (Note can't use power attack.) If in Mordhau stance and using power attack you perform a Coup De Grace on your opponent.
I left a lot of things you can take out like the power attack limitations etc. and a few options you can add in. Plus I went away from the only get an attack bonus vs people in armour to make the feat more attractive as then it would probably not be used very often. Yes it's absurd to half-sword vs an unarmoured person when you could just swing your sword and hit any part of them but I feel it's too specific a feat chain to bother with otherwise. This type of feat is just not conducive to these game mechanics in my opinion. Maybe I'm out to lunch on this but I think it's a decent start and can be tweaked into something usable with a few play sessions. Let me know how it goes. :)
Lemartes |
Additional thoughts.
The to hit bonus in half-sword stance applies to combat maneuvers and critical threats confirmation rolls. As it should.
Maybe the estoc shouldn't do normal die damage in half-sword stance. Maybe it gets a bonus to confirm a critical threat equal to the to hit bonus. Which would be +6 total bonus when you have all three feats. ie: The normal bonus plus that again when you crit.
Maybe the Mordhau stance shouldn't ignore an armour's DR on a critical?
Finally the last feat may be too powerful. Maybe the half-sword stance Coup De Grace is performed next round as a full round action at normal damage dice and the opponent can make a combat maneuver to escape this. They would still be prone and otherwise have no actions, or something like that. As for the Mordhau Coup De Grace maybe it instead does 1d4 points of con damage and the opponent is staggered for a like number of rounds?
Of course this is ignoring what prerequisites that you might be adding to the feats to balance them. :)
Errant Mercenary |
Alright I like the idea behind this. Half-swording was indeed used to gain penetration vs deflective armours. However I see a lot of stuff that I think doesnt quite work.
As Lemartes says, in a system where armour also has DR it would be much easier (and logical to implement).
Half Sword style:
? - Makes no sense that it is tied to the user's armour classification. I can open cans in full plate or underwear. Historical sources usually have 2 equal armoured fellas using this style.
Suggestion: Just let it be used agaisnt medium and up armour.
? - What if I fight monsters? Most of the enemies in pathfinder are not humanoid, and of those that are, few wear medium/heavy armour.
Sugestions: Perhaps let it be used agaisnt things with Natural Armour too, which is a good portion of monsters out there to warrant taking this asa feat.
Half-Sword Mordhau:
? - Conditions dont match up. Staggered is the lighter version of Stunned, and Dazed is stronger than staggered.
Suggestion: Just switch things around.
? - Gated behind CMD only. Most of these conditions are tied to a save.
Suggestion: Add a save to the condition. Ie. Fortitude save. This will make the third feat in the line be a little more reasonable too. I would make it a Will save instead, since otherwise you make these feats good vs casters/non heavies (more on it later).
Half-Sword Coup De Grace:
? - Low level requirement.
Suggestion: Pump it to 11 or 12.
? - This will kill anything but the most staunch enemies, especially those with lower CMD. This means the capstone of this feat line is better agaisnt light armoured targets than heavy armoured ones, counter to its whole premise.
? - Coup De Grace + Full attack is death. Death without set up.
Suggestion: I like the idea that you must Mordhau first, setting up the imbalance but having this happen in the same full round is too soon. I would perhaps do it this way: "When you have made someone stunned/dazed from a Mordhau you may next turn perform another Mordhau which if it lands you may do a Coup de Grace instead"
Overall you need to re-examine the identity of the feat line, try to analyse what Half Swording was used for and tunnel it that way. As it is, this is going to be more useful agaisnt casters and nimble people than tough opponents. The gating behind the enemy using heavier armour (and armour at all) makes this feat line not worth taking as is.
Errant Mercenary |
My take on this. It could use some fleshing out but it's an idea.
Feat 1 - the stance
Enter stance as a move action. A + 1 to hit opponents with medium+ armour or natural armour. Furthermore, ignore DR/5.
Feat 2 - level 6 - the strike and imbalacing the opponent
Standard Action to perform the Mordhau. Do a CMB, if it hits, deal damage as normal and makes them Flat Footed.
Special: May be combined with Vital Strike/Deadly Stroke. Targets immune to critical strike are not affected by this.
Feat 3 - level 11+ - the execute
As a full round action perform a Mordhau strike. If it hits, you may perform a Coup de Grace. Targets immune to critical strike are not affected by this.
The goal is to provide something that 1. is used agaisnt high armour opponents, 2. is worth taking even if enemies arent humanoids in full plate, 3. a clear setup.
The setup is -> enter stance (move) -> perform Mordhau and make enemy flat footed -> Coup de Grace. If you are the aggressor this takes 3 rounds, with damage done and a huge debuff on the 2nd round. If the enemy is coming at you this potentially happens in 2 rounds.
It also promotes a fighting style that allows you to move around more (Vital Strike/Deadly Stroke).