More Exotic Adventure Paths?


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First things first, I feel that exotic has a weighted term, so allow me to explain what I mean by it exactly: stuff that doesn't fit the classical fantasy theme.
Second things second: this ISN'T bashing the classical fantasy books! I think Hell's Rebel's, the campaign I'm planning on running next, looks absolutely fantastic, and I am HYPED for Return of the Runelords. That's not what this thread is about- it's more for gauging if anyone else feels the way I do about the settings of APs.

Let me explain: between #37 and #90 of the PF Adventure Paths, there was HUGE diversity in what kind of games each game would be. Gothic Horror! Vikings and Samurai! Pirates! Mummies! Reign of Winter literally took us from Irrisen to Triaxus to Siberia, 1917! That kind of variety is definitely what sold me on Pathfinder compared to D&D- in D&D, can you play as an Android techslinger blasting lasers at an giant metal spider AI claiming to be God? I don't think so!

Since the end of Iron Gods, though, the general feeling has been a lot more similar, bar Ruins of Azlant and Strange Aeons, in that they all feel much more... vanilla, in a sense. Yes, they have things that make them unique: Hell's Vengeance is an Evil AP! Return of the Runelords will run players from Level 1 to 20! And I cannot stress how much I love the concept of Hell's Rebels. But I suppose my gripe is that a lot of it feels very classic fantasy, ones which don't need characters built specifically for the setting (eg you don't need to design a character who clearly looks like they belong diving into pyramids or standing at the deck of a pirate ship- rather, a character designed to be played in Giantslayer could potentially be re-used in War for the Crown with only minor changes, design and archetype wise. No races which are particularly fitting the way Changelings fit into CC and Androids into IG, no archetypes which fit THIS AP extremely well the way Buccaneer or Corsair fit Skulls and Shackles, etc). Basically, what I'm saying is that a lot of the newer Adventures have similar atmospheres to each other in comparison to older adventures, which to me is a pity because of the amount of cool settings Golarion has to offer!

There's the Realm of the Mammoth Riders, which is just begging to have a prehistoric adventure run with it. Tian Xia had the last few books of the Jade Reagent, but could easily be expanded on and have an AP set exclusively in its borders to make choices such as Ninjas and Samurai or Kitsunes and Tengu less eyebrow raising. The Mwangi Expanse was featured in Serpent's Skull, but I believe it has potential for even more. Alkenstar is a huge one, only having starred in two modules, despite having an INCREDIBLY unique setting which allows for some use of technology rules while still retaining a very fantasy feeling! Rahadoum got some attention in modules, yes, but a whole AP in a land where religion is forbidden? Now THAT would be some fun stuff to play, especially as a Cleric or a Paladin disguising their religion. And that's just scratching the surface!

Basically, I'd love to see APs with the same diversity of older books, and I'm wondering if anyone else feels the same, or has other locations/settings they'd love to see more APs set in. I get that this kind of fantasy isn't everyone's cup of tea, and they'd prefer to have more classical fantasy books- but I want to know if other people also prefer more exotic APs too!

Liberty's Edge

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This is the exact reason why I am no longer a subscriber. The variety of exotic themes for APs #37-90 was what got me on board as a subscriber for the first time. Jungle adventure! Caravan to the orient! Pirates of the not-Caribbean! Space and Russia! Egypt! Barrier Peaks! I really felt like I got to travel.

Giantslayer was the first one that really got my spirits down. It was so flat and generic fantasy fare. The Cheliax duology managed to win me over. Lovecraft felt exotic enough to me, and a colony adventure in the unknown certainly did. But Taldor and Varisia are...so safe and trite. I'm not excited by the two upcoming APs. I'm looking forward to news of the next AP...hopefully something wilder again.

It bears noting that Garund used to be regular fare. We had 3APs -- then Garund (Legacy of Fire). Then 2APs -- Garund (Serpent's Skull). Then 2APs -- Garund again (Skull & Shackles). Then 3APs -- Garund (Mummy's Mask).

It used to be 2-3 APs, then Garund. Garund used to be 25-33% of AP content. But we're now going on NINE APs without Garund. That exemplifies the problem. We're basically 100% Avistan now, which is a big drop from how things used to be. (Sure, Ruins of Azlant wasn't actually *set* in Avistan, but the colony was Andoren.)

I'm losing interest and dropping away from Pathfinder, personally. I'm sure there are others who enjoy the heightened Avistan focus. And I suppose Paizo must have sales numbers that indicate that this is the direction to move in, so it is what it is. But sure, I'm sad about this.

Jon Brazer Enterprises

This is an interesting discussion. Dotted for interest.


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Samy wrote:
Giantslayer was the first one that really got my spirits down. It was so flat and generic fantasy fare. The Cheliax duology managed to win me over. Lovecraft felt exotic enough to me, and a colony adventure in the unknown certainly did. But Taldor and Varisia are...so safe and trite. I'm not excited by the two upcoming APs. I'm looking forward to news of the next AP...hopefully something wilder again.

This is my sentiment exactly. I think what I'd love to see are less safe choices, bolder and wilder feeling! I guess what makes a fun AP in my books is: "Would J. R. R. Tolkien write about it?" If the answer is no, then hell yeah I'd love to play it.


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Strange Aeons goes pretty far and has a lot of travel and exotic places.

Ruins Of Azlant goes far afield.

If I was a betting man (I'm not) I'd say the as yet unannounced AP after Return Of The Runelords will be more exotic.


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Derry L. Zimeye wrote:

First things first, I feel that exotic has a weighted term, so allow me to explain what I mean by it exactly: stuff that doesn't fit the classical fantasy theme.

Second things second: this ISN'T bashing the classical fantasy books! I think Hell's Rebel's, the campaign I'm planning on running next, looks absolutely fantastic, and I am HYPED for Return of the Runelords. That's not what this thread is about- it's more for gauging if anyone else feels the way I do about the settings of APs.

Let me explain: between #37 and #90 of the PF Adventure Paths, there was HUGE diversity in what kind of games each game would be. Gothic Horror! Vikings and Samurai! Pirates! Mummies! Reign of Winter literally took us from Irrisen to Triaxus to Siberia, 1917! That kind of variety is definitely what sold me on Pathfinder compared to D&D- in D&D, can you play as an Android techslinger blasting lasers at an giant metal spider AI claiming to be God? I don't think so!

Since the end of Iron Gods, though, the general feeling has been a lot more similar, bar Ruins of Azlant and Strange Aeons, in that they all feel much more... vanilla, in a sense. Yes, they have things that make them unique: Hell's Vengeance is an Evil AP! Return of the Runelords will run players from Level 1 to 20! And I cannot stress how much I love the concept of Hell's Rebels. But I suppose my gripe is that a lot of it feels very classic fantasy, ones which don't need characters built specifically for the setting (eg you don't need to design a character who clearly looks like they belong diving into pyramids or standing at the deck of a pirate ship- rather, a character designed to be played in Giantslayer could potentially be re-used in War for the Crown with only minor changes, design and archetype wise. No races which are particularly fitting the way Changelings fit into CC and Androids into IG, no archetypes which fit THIS AP extremely well the way Buccaneer or Corsair fit Skulls and Shackles, etc). Basically, what I'm saying is that a lot of the newer...

I disagree completely with what I highlighted.

If you're playing basically the same character in Giantslayer (or Ironfang Invasion, a far superior AP, well worth the money) then you're doing a disservice to yourself, your GM, your fellow players, and the campaign.

In fact there is plenty of room in all the more recent APs for all sorts of exotic races or weird classes.

I understand what you're saying, I agree, but at the same time an AP sometimes is as exotic as you make it. Don't discount or dismiss the most recent APs because they don't go to the moon or have Runelords blasting across the Alkali Flats on a jet powered rocketbike.

And from the sound of it, War Of The Crown is going to be crazy awesome, so don't miss out!

Dark Archive

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Everyone who thinks that War for the Crown will be "normal" and "standard" has really no idea what they are in for, the bestiary itself is crazy xD

And who the heck would expect:
the clowns

Jon Brazer Enterprises

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captain yesterday wrote:
Strange Aeons goes pretty far and has a lot of travel and exotic places.

I'm actually kind of tired the Cthulhu mythos. So that one just hasn't interested me, much like the other ones everyone else has mentioned.

Infact, Ironfang Invasion is the only one I subscribed to in a while. I subscribed to Hell's Rebels just for issue 100.

So yea, more exotic APs would interest me as well.


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It's kind of hard to pin down, since different aspects strike different people as outside of the norm-

Going down the line, for me:

Rise of the Runelords- Not "exotic."

Curse of the Crimson Throne- Not 'exotic."

Second Darkness- Starts "exotic" for one adventure, but quickly dispenses with space critters to go on a drow hunt.

Legacy of Fire- Stop an evil army of genies from invading Garund? Not "exotic." Cool as hell, but not exotic.

Council of Thieves- not "exotic."

Kingmaker- Not "exotic."

Serpent's Skull- Classic pulpy (and occasionally problematic) search for a lost city... not "exotic."

Carrion Crown- A different horror trope every adventure... will cautiously and with a personal disclaimer allow that this, the eighth Adventure Path, might qualify as "exotic."

Jade Regent- Caravan across the cold wastes to Tian Xia, to topple the corrupt ruler of Minkai! Preeeeetty standard fare, really- only the odd mixture of real-world cultural analogues really made this one stand out. Vikings and Ninjas and Erutaki, oh my!

Skull and Shackles- The essentially selfish nature of this AP, coupled with the piracy theme, the press-gang opening... well-worn tropes, but I'll go ahead and call this one "exotic." So we're... two out of ten so far.

Shattered Star- Billed and advertised as a classic "Rod of Seven Parts" artifact looting series of dungeon crawls. Not "exotic."

Reign of Winter- Gonzo world-hopping, genre-bending lunacy. This is the first one I wholeheartedly agree was a bit beyond the usual norms. Three out of twelve, with all three happening in the latter half of the first twelve.

Wrath of the Righteous- Straight-up demon stomping. Not "exotic."

Mummy's Mask- Not "exotic." Really cool, fun, and a neat setting, but doesn't exactly defy conventions.

Iron Gods- Robots and lasers, robots, an ascendant AI race for divinity... Yeah, I'll give this one an "exotic" flag. Four out of fifteen.

Giantslayer- Not even remotely "exotic," by design.

Hell's Rebels- Not "exotic."

Hell's Vengeance- Not "exotic" because playing total and utter scumbags was the gimmick here.

Strange Aeons- Dimensional madness, issues of sanity, bent time, and the grim specter of Carcosa ascending... sure, I'll give it "exotic." Five out of nineteen.

Ironfang Invasion- Old school by design.

Ruins of Azlant- Preeeeetty old-school with an aquatic theme. For my money, it qualifies far more than Mummy's Mask or Serpent's Skull... but still isn't really all that "out there."

War for the Crown- I won't be GMing this one(! YAYYYYYYY! I GETZ TA PLAY!), but it hardly seems like it's going to be a typical fantasy story... so provisionally, it would be the sixth out of twenty-two.

If you don't regard pastiches of foreign cultures as exotic, the total has always been pretty low. We had a brief run of a few almost back to back, but...

Liberty's Edge

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Well, "exotic" is subjective, everyone has their own definition. I think the point of this thread was to ask, is there anyone else who feels that the APs aren't exotic enough for them? Rather than argue over subjective definitions of which APs are or aren't exotic. Basically a venting/commiseration thread.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Theoretically, Paizo's modus operandi has been to do one "traditional" and one "experimental" AP each year. I'm not sure to what extent they're still explicitly sticking with that framework, but the idea is that both people who like vanilla/Tolkien/orcs&trolls campaigns and those who like gonzo/Cthulhu/crashed-spaceships&flying-pyramids campaigns are being served. If they veer too hard in either direction, they risk losing subscribers.

Liberty's Edge

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Yes, and theoretically Paizo's modus operandi has been to do one James Jacobs and one Rob McCreary AP each year...


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This has recently changed to Crystal Frazier (Ironfang Invasion, War for the Crown) and Adam Daigle (Ruins of Azlant), however.


Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

I wouldn't even necessarily mind having one exotic AP and one classic AP a year, since it gives a good choice, but that hasn't really been how it's been going for the last while (again, bar Strange Aeons and Ruins of Azlant). That's not to say that the classic ones are bland or boring! War for the Crown for example is definitely super unique in its own ways! It's just... Taldor's Taldor, not Tian Xia, you know?


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So? So far, before War for the Crown, we had, I think, three AP adventures in Tian Xia, but only one in Taldor.

Silver Crusade

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Zaister wrote:
So? So far, before War for the Crown, we had, I think, three AP adventures in Tian Xia, but only one in Taldor.

???

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

He means the three last installments of Jade Regent, counting them separately.

Liberty's Edge

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Zaister wrote:
This has recently changed to Crystal Frazier (Ironfang Invasion, War for the Crown) and Adam Daigle (Ruins of Azlant), however.

This was my point -- things have changed since the "traditional modus operandi".


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Note that the modus operandi also was traditional vs non-tradtional, where non-traditional did not necesarily mean "exotic location" but could also mean unusual rule mechanic or gimmick, such as Kingmaker's sandbox adventuring, Wrath of the Righteous' mythic rules, or Hell's Vengeance's evil motif.


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Samy wrote:
He means the three last installments of Jade Regent, counting them separately.

That is why I said "AP adventures". I was referring to:

Tian-Xia: Forest of Spirits, Tide of Honor, The Empty Throne
Taldor: Snows of Summer.


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Derry L. Zimeye wrote:


Since the end of Iron Gods, though, the general feeling has been a lot more similar, bar Ruins of Azlant and Strange Aeons, in that they all feel much more... vanilla, in a sense. Yes, they have things that make them unique: Hell's Vengeance is an Evil AP! Return of the Runelords will run players from Level 1 to 20! And I cannot stress how much I love the concept of Hell's Rebels. But I suppose my gripe is that a lot of it feels very classic fantasy, ones which don't need characters built specifically for the setting (eg you don't need to design a character who clearly looks like they belong diving into pyramids or standing at the deck of a pirate ship- rather, a character designed to be played in Giantslayer could potentially be re-used in War for the Crown with only minor changes, design and archetype wise. No races which are particularly fitting the way Changelings fit into CC and Androids into IG, no archetypes which fit THIS AP extremely well the way Buccaneer or Corsair fit Skulls and Shackles, etc). Basically, what I'm saying is that a lot of the newer...

So of the six fulls APs that have come out since Iron Gods most of them have all been vanilla except for three? If I asked for a scoop of vanilla ice cream and got back half vanilla, part ube, part chocolate, and part mint I would be very surprised.

I haven't run through Ironfang, but my GM makes it sounds like it is heavily Wilderness based. I'm not sure a character from that campaign would do well with the court intrigue of War for the Crown.

Personally, my love of Pathfinder APs isn't just because weird stuff shows up, it is also because they find ways to make goblins, orcs, and dragons interesting again. The world just feels more realized and full of inhabitants with distinct personalities, back stories, and connections with other characters.


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What's "ube"?


Furdinand wrote:
Personally, my love of Pathfinder APs isn't just because weird stuff shows up, it is also because they find ways to make goblins, orcs, and dragons interesting again.

Especially goblins... I'd phrase it in a different way: An AP's theme is not that important for me - it's the implementation that matters. For example I don't really care about Lovecraft, but Strange Aeons has amazing NPCs, the first book is among the best AP books ever published.


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I love the non vanilla adventures. Paizo seemed to always seemed to be able to do the weird and different. So even in a very generic fantasy one like rise the runelords we do have some weirdness creeping in.
The ones I want to run right now are the most different ones. Iron Gods and Strange Aeons come to the top of that list.


I have recently been hunting down modules of different APs. There are consitent themes and structures. Every time I read a module that is "you get to this city, you are approached by grey-moral-evil person asking you to do something nefarious" and "you happen to save someone from something" my inspiration dies a little bit (latest was Ruins of Azlant 4, great locale and by the end things do get mixed up enough but at least 50% of it could be in any other setting any other city any other story, but this is underwater wow). When these things happen my players go into PC RPG automatic mode.

APs that challenge these values and over used structures I find the best. Skull and Shackles, perhaps for being so unconventional even within a conventional box (pirates), I still hold as a great example. Makes players THINK differently, approach encounters in other angles than "I click the answer that gives the best reward".


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I think a lot of people are looking too much into the specifics of what's being said within the context of Golarion rather than of TTRPGs as a whole. What I was trying to say with this thread was "I'd like to see more APs which aren't medieval European fantasy-themed." Taldor only had a few places in APs beforehand (Snows of Summer/Dreams of the Yellow King), yes, but the setting of Taldor -albeit with some very interesting differences, of course!- is still similar enough to, say, Varisia, Cheliax, Belkzen, etc. That's not to say these countries are ANYWHERE at all similar to each other in the context of Golarion- they have vastly different cultures, bestiaries and playtypes- but to an outsider passing by these books in a store, there's more of a difference between Realm of the Mammoth Lords, the land of megafauna-riding sorcerers, and Varisia/Cheliax/etc- in that the settings like Orision, Numeria or the Shackles have themes which are INSTANTLY recognizable as "not your usual TTRPG setting." Does that make more sense? What I'm saying is I'd like to get back to experimenting more with that kind of AP!


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Derry L. Zimeye wrote:
I think a lot of people are looking too much into the specifics of what's being said within the context of Golarion rather than of TTRPGs as a whole. What I was trying to say with this thread was "I'd like to see more APs which aren't medieval European fantasy-themed." Taldor only had a few places in APs beforehand (Snows of Summer/Dreams of the Yellow King), yes, but the setting of Taldor -albeit with some very interesting differences, of course!- is still similar enough to, say, Varisia, Cheliax, Belkzen, etc. That's not to say these countries are ANYWHERE at all similar to each other in the context of Golarion- they have vastly different cultures, bestiaries and playtypes- but to an outsider passing by these books in a store, there's more of a difference between Realm of the Mammoth Lords, the land of megafauna-riding sorcerers, and Varisia/Cheliax/etc- in that the settings like Orision, Numeria or the Shackles have themes which are INSTANTLY recognizable as "not your usual TTRPG setting." Does that make more sense? What I'm saying is I'd like to get back to experimenting more with that kind of AP!

Frankly, while War for the Crown might be heading this way anyway, what I'd like to see is an AP with a kind of serving King Arthur/Round Table feel to it. The one where you work for The good ruler guy (Gal) who is actually decent enough to make you think this Monarchy stuff is going to work this century. Heck, they could rip whole cloth from some elements and give the heroes a chance to keep that kingdom safe from what destroyed Arthur.

Maybe the heroes get a chance to stop a love triangle from forming.
Maybe they stand against the ruler's bastard son.
Maybe the ruler gets ill and only a holy object can heal him/her?

i'd like an Arthurian kind of setting, not just a chance to defend the Good Kingdom, but a great one with a ruler that comes around maybe once in a thousand years tops.

But the 'Arthur' kingdom doesn't need to be in Astivan. Adapt the above, and put it in the so far unknown Southern Parts of Garund below the Mwangi Expanse! Magical Wakanda forever! And I would be down with that.

Or put it in Tian Xia, and the fact that title might be Khan or Emperor or something is fine!

And as I loved a lot of Sinbad and such, and it's been awhile since Legacy of Fire, I would love to see a Solomon like Satrap of a yet unrevealed area of Casmaron, in need of the adventurers to join his elite forces

Take the vanilla concept, remold to fit the culture (I trust whoever develops to be better educated in the area than I will ever be), and draw inspiration not just from Arthurian stuff but said part of the world and what it homages and give me a 'too good to be true but he/she is true and worth serving' kind of lord and i would give it a chance. i want a Camelot area, and I'm not too fussy about where they put it or what style it comes in. :)

Heck, better, since Paizo could put their own touches on it. So you don't all have to be shiny armor wearers. etc.

YMMV

But War for the Crown may turn into that anyway so we'll see.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Thing about Taldor is that most of monsters in the campaign settnig book and bestiary 1 of the first ap book are weeeeeeeeeird <_<

Anyway, can't say anything about War for the Crown expect that if you can guess how the plot summary goes, you have actually read it :P It's really unpredictable for most parts if you ask me

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
CorvusMask wrote:
Thing about Taldor is that most of monsters in the campaign settnig book and bestiary 1 of the first ap book are weeeeeeeeeird <_<

I don't really care how weird monsters are. All APs are full of weird monsters, that's not a distinguishing point. I care about the setting. Taldor's like Spain/Rome or something. Boring.


Derry L. Zimeye wrote:
....in that the settings like Orision, Numeria or the Shackles have themes which are INSTANTLY recognizable as "not your usual TTRPG setting." Does that make more sense? What I'm saying is I'd like to get back to experimenting more with that kind of AP!

I agree, though I think it goes beyond just setting.

Exotic is a composition of elements, one of them is the setting. It is fun to do stuff in a jungle, underwater or in the air.However, I feel that this is probably the least exotic element of them all.
Example, Ruins of Azlant Book 4. Exotic environs. Really run of the mill everything else. It is the usual "get to a city, get approached by 1. underground nefarious person that suggests probable evil deed, 2. save by bystanders from the well timed spawning dangers, 3. get accepted as a hero by everyone when you clear your name. I could drain this whole module of water, put goblins and bugbears in it and throw it anywhere; it is flat. It does not become exotic because we are underwater (though it is well written and fun to run/play, with a good selection of encounters that does add to the backdrop). We have done this a hundred times and promotes player autopilot mentality.

Any adventuring "go in the dungeon, kill, get out" in which your decisions, if you get to make any, ultimately mean little is by now a trope that should be the exception and not the norm, and while a component of most adventures it shouldnt be the main premise. Paizo has shown us that they can publish exquisite material to change playerbase expectations. That is for me what exotic is.

Sixfold Trial Council of Thieves, Smugglers Shiv and City of spears of Serpents Skull, some of the Curse of the Crimson Throne, the Irongfang books 1-2 survival aspect, Eye of Eternity of Legacy of Fire, etc. These break the mold, and even if they arent always perfectly written, are exotic, you could paint them in goblins and bugbears and they'd retain their charm still. Hopefully War for the Crown surprises us with some multipath court stabby dynamics.

Skull & Shackles as a Case study, since I always praise this AP I'll highlight some things that makes it different/exotic:

Part 1:

  • Throws the PC into a very different low level dynamic
  • Player agency shift, it is there but constrained in an interesting way
  • Flips these by the end of the book, giving players an amazing release
  • Boarding actions

Part 2:
  • Shift again into having a ship to run.
  • Naval combat subsystem
  • Boarding actions
  • Sandbox element

Part 3:
  • Earning a place in the world, Free Captain challenge vs Goldtooth
  • Some straight up adventuring, Indiana Jones style
  • Intrigue and spy network dismantling, whilst not too well written, potential
  • Free Captains Regatta, a very praised scripted event that brings that exotic feel to practice

Part 4:
  • Island exploration, typical adventuring
  • Slight kingdom building, albeit so so
  • Throwing a ball and its sabotage, putting the players on the receiving end for once
  • A scoring system sidestepping usual adventuring murderhoboing

Parts 5&6:
  • Council Meeting events
  • Fleet Battles subsystem
  • Fort infiltration standard
  • Open ended, modular culmination of the AP, where your decisions throughout the campaign, from book 2 onwards, potentially matter

See how many times the premise of how players are to interact with the setting changes? Compare this to running Carrion Crown or Ruins of Azlant. The differences go beyond setting; structure, composition and player mentality approach are completely different.

All these changes in assumptions and dynamics force the players to think and approach the adventure differently. Many also work well to flesh out the characters, making the player think about motivations in an organic way. Sure, S&Shackles has elements that not everyone likes such as sandbox or subsystems, but the adventure is an excellent example of what it means to challenge the boundaries of rpg adventures.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Samy wrote:
CorvusMask wrote:
Thing about Taldor is that most of monsters in the campaign settnig book and bestiary 1 of the first ap book are weeeeeeeeeird <_<
I don't really care how weird monsters are. All APs are full of weird monsters, that's not a distinguishing point. I care about the setting. Taldor's like Spain/Rome or something. Boring.

That just confuses me further, I mean, since when is Spain or Rome standard RPG setting and not exotic?

I thought standard RPG setting was "generic vaguely anglo-saxon medieval setting"

Liberty's Edge

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CorvusMask wrote:
That just confuses me further, I mean, since when is Spain or Rome standard RPG setting and not exotic?

Since everybody gets to decide for themselves what they find exotic. Maybe Spain/Rome are exotic to you, but not to me. They are literally within one day's driving distance from anglosaxon areas IRL. They are *so close* to each other culturally, when compared to looking at something like Mongols or the Maya. That comparatively small amount of separation on a global scale may be enough for you, but not for everyone.

It also doesn't help that there's no mechanical exoticness either. (No, intrigue doesn't count for me. Evil in Hell's Vengeance did. Mythic (and significant NPC participation) in Wrath of the Righteous did. Technology in Iron Gods did. But intrigue is something basic that should be supported by every adventure to one degree or another, IMO. Just like I don't really count hexploration either as a mechanical item of interest -- the way my gaming grew up, it was a standard feature of D&D adventuring. And if an adventure doesn't support it, that's a minus.)

I mean, sure, WftC isn't 100% vanilla. It's not in a kingdom populated by guys named John and Robert, and it lets you do non-dungeon crawling activities. But there's a vast spectrum of how *far* things go from 100% vanilla, and I would say that WftC (from all I've heard, I haven't read it, so I'm happy to be corrected) is closer to 90% vanilla than 10% vanilla. The locale is 'mildly' exotic, a romance culture that IRL neighbors anglosaxony. Nothing too wild, just mild foreignness. Mechanics, same thing, mild venturing into intrigue rules now that Ultimate Intrigue is out, but I haven't read anything that suggests you *need* UI for WftC in the same way that you *need* Mythic Adventures for WotR. So, again, mild. I'm not getting that pedal to the metal feel here that things are being fully invested. Everything just sounds, "hey, let's play it safe and stick pretty close to standard".


Samy wrote:
Maybe Spain/Rome are exotic to you, but not to me. They are literally within one day's driving distance from anglosaxon areas IRL. They are *so close* to each other culturally, when compared to looking at something like Mongols or the Maya.

My impression: Settings sell better if the setting is more familiar. There is an ancient RPG about Maya, called Tékumel, but it has so few players compared to D&D. Hence a company has to be careful to not go overboard with unusual settings - as well as not to bore their customers with the same stuff over and over.

There are players who played a lot - and therefore are thankful for everything that is outside the common ideas. But I suspect they are a small minority, even if the boards here seem to imply otherwise. The average player is appearantly happy playing a drunkard dwarf with a battleaxe or a fireball-slinging sorcerer.


Giantslayer - this adventure had to have the 6 main true giants in it & they are European based, except the stone giants. Frost giants don't fit with Garund.

Hell's Rebels - I think people demanded a proper Cheliax AP at the time. Also, devils had to receive some love, after the mythic demon AP.

Hell's Vengeance - evil pcs fighting for their evil nation against the good guys.
Thing is that Garund doesn't have many evil nations, except Geb. Problem with Geb is that it's too focused on necromancy, players can't play undead & I don't think that a party full of necromances is what the players wanted from an evil AP.

Strange Aeons - Lovecraft adventure, a part of it took place in Garund.

Ironfang Invasion - forest adventure, couldn't have taken place in Garund,cause jungles don't have bears & dire wolves.

Ruins of Azlant - underwater adventure, couldn't have taken place in Garund.

War of the Crown - Paizo wants to ride on GoT popularity wave & readers demanded a Taldor AP for a very long time, so it couldn't have taken place in Garund.

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DoctorFate25 wrote:
Ironfang Invasion - forest adventure, couldn't have taken place in Garund,cause jungles don't have bears & dire wolves.

Uh, yeah they do. Even the I’m not sure what having/not having bears and wolves has anything to do with Ironfang Invasion.

Shadow Lodge

Rysky wrote:
DoctorFate25 wrote:
Ironfang Invasion - forest adventure, couldn't have taken place in Garund,cause jungles don't have bears & dire wolves.
Uh, yeah they do. Even the I’m not sure what having/not having bears and wolves has anything to do with Ironfang Invasion.

The only necessary setting element in Ironfang Invasion is a Dwarven Sky Citadel, and while their locations are canonically established (which I'm fairly sure is the only reason Nirmathas was chosen at all; the country is extraordinarily bland and it's culture plays no role whatsoever in the path), it can't be hard to just make up a "lost" one.


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In the original pitch for Ironfang Invasion I remember (or possibly misremember) Crystalhurst was going to be the tie in to book five, but they probably switched it to the Sky Citadel (which the Mwangi Expanse has, if I'm correct) to strengthen the overall story.

I could be wrong though.


Rysky wrote:
DoctorFate25 wrote:
Ironfang Invasion - forest adventure, couldn't have taken place in Garund,cause jungles don't have bears & dire wolves.
Uh, yeah they do. Even the I’m not sure what having/not having bears and wolves has anything to do with Ironfang Invasion.

cause Jason Bulmahn(or Erik Mona, forgot which) wanted an adventure where the players wouldn't worry about where they place their dire bear mount when they enter a village or a tavern,the adventure was clearly about the forest mythology, this AP clearly wanted to give the druid class some love & their fey mythology,which are inherently European.

Apparently, there is a Wolf hybrid in Africa, still not enough.
African mythology is about shamanism & witch doctors, a class which in Pathfinder doesn't focus too much on animals, plants & magical beasts.
& Paizo already had an AP that was about the Mwangi jungles, it would get repetitive if the went in that direction.


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I think the point was that there's plenty of wolves and bears in the jungle.

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DoctorFate25 wrote:
Rysky wrote:
DoctorFate25 wrote:
Ironfang Invasion - forest adventure, couldn't have taken place in Garund,cause jungles don't have bears & dire wolves.
Uh, yeah they do. Even the I’m not sure what having/not having bears and wolves has anything to do with Ironfang Invasion.
cause Jason Bulmahn(or Erik Mona, forgot which)
Crystal Frasier was in charge of Ironfang Invasion.
Quote:
wanted an adventure where the players wouldn't worry about where they place their dire bear mount when they enter a village or a tavern,
No, the AP was built around more allowances for Mounts and Animal Companions, nothing specific about bears or wolves.
Quote:
the adventure was clearly about the forest mythology, this AP clearly wanted to give the druid class some love & their fey mythology,which are inherently European.

... no they're not. Garund/Africa has Fey and mythologies. Aside from the name "Druid" there's nothing inherently European about it. As for the AP, it has a section about the Fey, but it's not all about them. It's about Hobgoblins invading.

Quote:

Apparently, there is a Wolf hybrid in Africa, still not enough.

African mythology is about shamanism & witch doctors, a class which in Pathfinder doesn't focus too much on animals, plants & magical beasts.

You should probably go read up on African mythologies before making statements like this.

Quote:
& Paizo already had an AP that was about the Mwangi jungles, it would get repetitive if the went in that direction.

They've had one, as opposed to all the adventures set in Avistan. How many are they allowed to have before they get "repetitive"? having another years later set in the Mwangi would not be repetitive.


captain yesterday wrote:
I think the point was that there's plenty of wolves and bears in the jungle.

there's no wolves n bears in jungle Africa

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DoctorFate25 wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:
I think the point was that there's plenty of wolves and bears in the jungle.
there's no wolves n bears in jungle Africa

This is false.


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DoctorFate25 wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:
I think the point was that there's plenty of wolves and bears in the jungle.
there's no wolves n bears in jungle Africa

The Mwangi Expanse isn't Africa.

And yes, I'm pretty sure there is.


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Quote:
Extant bears are found in sixty countries primarily in the Northern Hemisphere and are concentrated in Asia, North America, and Europe. An exception is the spectacled bear; native to South America, it inhabits the Andean region. The sun bear's range extends below the equator in Southeast Asia. The Atlas bear, a subspecies of the brown bear was distributed in North Africa from Morocco to Libya, but it became extinct around the 1870s.

But unless those wolves and bears are plot-critical, it probably doesn't matter.

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Matthew Downie wrote:
Quote:
Extant bears are found in sixty countries primarily in the Northern Hemisphere and are concentrated in Asia, North America, and Europe. An exception is the spectacled bear; native to South America, it inhabits the Andean region. The sun bear's range extends below the equator in Southeast Asia. The Atlas bear, a subspecies of the brown bear was distributed in North Africa from Morocco to Libya, but it became extinct around the 1870s.
But unless those wolves and bears are plot-critical, it probably doesn't matter.

The dreaded Plot Bear, not as deadly as its cousin the Drop Bear, but still deadlier than the common Gummi Bear.


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Gummi bears get Ooze immunities: Immunity to gaze attacks, visual effects, illusions, and other attack forms that rely on sight. Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, polymorph, and stunning. Not subject to critical hits or flanking. Does not take additional damage from precision-based attacks, such as sneak attack.

But Plot-critical bears have Plot immunity: No matter what happens to them, they always turn up alive to continue menacing the PCs. "A branch broke my fall." "I survived the flood by using an umbrella as a boat." "You failed to destroy my phylactery." Etc.


Rysky wrote:
DoctorFate25 wrote:
Rysky wrote:
DoctorFate25 wrote:
Ironfang Invasion - forest adventure, couldn't have taken place in Garund,cause jungles don't have bears & dire wolves.
Uh, yeah they do. Even the I’m not sure what having/not having bears and wolves has anything to do with Ironfang Invasion.
cause Jason Bulmahn(or Erik Mona, forgot which)
Crystal Frasier was in charge of Ironfang Invasion.
Quote:
wanted an adventure where the players wouldn't worry about where they place their dire bear mount when they enter a village or a tavern,
No, the AP was built around more allowances for Mounts and Animal Companions, nothing specific about bears or wolves.
Quote:
the adventure was clearly about the forest mythology, this AP clearly wanted to give the druid class some love & their fey mythology,which are inherently European.

... no they're not. Garund/Africa has Fey and mythologies. Aside from the name "Druid" there's nothing inherently European about it. As for the AP, it has a section about the Fey, but it's not all about them. It's about Hobgoblins invading.

Quote:

Apparently, there is a Wolf hybrid in Africa, still not enough.

African mythology is about shamanism & witch doctors, a class which in Pathfinder doesn't focus too much on animals, plants & magical beasts.

You should probably go read up on African mythologies before making statements like this.

Quote:
& Paizo already had an AP that was about the Mwangi jungles, it would get repetitive if the went in that direction.
They've had one, as opposed to all the adventures set in Avistan. How many are they allowed to have before they get "repetitive"? having another years later set in the Mwangi would not be repetitive.

I know she was in charge, but I am pretty sure she listens to orders, she said it in an interview.

I know the class ain't avistani focused, point was that druidism as a real life phenomenon was European.

I am pretty sure there are some GarundI fey considering the immense no. of monsters Paizo puts out, but the popular ones are European ones & are more numerous.

I was talking about the shaman class not being as nature based as the druid class, obviously the African mythology is filled with druidic type stories.

It would be repetitive it the adventure is all about jungle type stuff. African adventure(usually) = nature adventure(Tarzan) sprinkled with lost cities ruled by necromancers, gorillas(or baboons) & forgotten gods.

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Those are assumptions you are having.

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