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I do agree with the OP and Samy that an AP set in and all about the middle and southern Garund would be awesome, and I would seriously consider subscribing to it for all my friends (don't get too excited, I only have 3 friends, give or take).
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I would also like more on Galt, be it campaign setting, module, or Adventure Path (which I'm sure won't happen, which is cool, with a campaign setting book on Galt I could just tweak and use Hell's Rebels).
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I think what the OP was getting at was the Paizo AP design idea of (what I call) "Safe AP/Themed AP": One of the Adventure Paths in a year would lean heavily on standard fantasy roleplaying game flavor and tropes, while the second would go further afield and typically take on a theme of sorts. Occasionally, the difference between the two when it came to location/setting might end up making them, in hindsight, rather similar- particularly when they first rolled out and the campaign setting as a whole was still in its infancy. But the basic concept was there, and has been for some time, with an occasional swing in either direction causing back-to-back Safe or Theme APs (and the expected grumbles from the other camp that come with such a thing).
A lot of that was because folks who want a standard, knights-in-full-plate-fighting-giants-and-dragons AP or the like simply will not buy an AP set in Osirion, say, or one set entirely aboard a pirate ship, or one with space aliens and robots. Since those folks will be automatically out, the wisdom was the theme APs would have reduced sales- but hopefully enough folks who don't go in for standard fantasy will pick it up that it'd make the time and effort worthwhile.
It also lets the developers and freelancers wave their alternate fantasy freak flags, which is a good and important thing to have going on.
Now, where any given person draws their line about what they consider/don't consider "traditional" AP is going to vary, so you'll end up with arguments about whether something counts as such- and one can see that if one goes digging on these boards (and the staff certainly do). That said, there's clear enough outliers that most folks can pretty much agree don't qualify as "traditional": stuff like Iron Gods or Mummy's Mask are going to feel a lot different in theme than Rise of the Runelords or War For the Crown even if they introduce little mechanically that would keep someone from just rolling up Sir Swordboy the Knight and calling it a day.
I've long been a big advocate for pushing out the boundaries of the map, and exploring the weird corners within the Inner Sea- I was begging for a Numeria AP back in '09, which we got eventually- but I also like knowing there's solid, well-done standard fare APs in the bank as well, and I'm a massive sucker for Runelords stuff, so seeing that getting wrapped up this year is pretty exciting. But I too am looking forward to some more interesting, frontier-boundary-pushing stuff in the near future. If I had to peg something at the top of my list it'd be a Casmaron-focused AP, particularly dealing with Ninshabur- though I'll also happily take Vudra, or Iblydos, or pretty much anything as long as an accompanying Campaign Setting lets me explore the rest.
At any rate, however it all shakes out coming up (and we'll learn one at PaizoCon and another at GenCon, so the wait won't be too long), I'd expect we'll see something more on the out-there spectrum coming up in the next year. What it is I have no idea- my clockwork spy was discovered and scrapped, so I haven't seen the Four Year AP Schedule whiteboard in some time- but I'd betcha one of those APs is gonna feel different than what we've seen lately.
That just confuses me further, I mean, since when is Spain or Rome standard RPG setting and not exotic?Since everybody gets to decide for themselves what they find exotic. Maybe Spain/Rome are exotic to you, but not to me. They are literally within one day's driving distance from anglosaxon areas IRL. They are *so close* to each other culturally, when compared to looking at something like Mongols or the Maya. That comparatively small amount of separation on a global scale may be enough for you, but not for everyone.
For the record, if I recall correctly, Taldor is based more on Byzantine than Rome culturally. So the drive is a little longer than a day. ;)
Hell's Rebels - I think people demanded a proper Cheliax AP at the time. Also, devils had to receive some love, after the mythic demon AP.
Hell's Vengeance - evil pcs fighting for their evil nation against the good guys.
Thing is that Garund doesn't have many evil nations, except Geb. Problem with Geb is that it's too focused on necromancy, players can't play undead & I don't think that a party full of necromances is what the players wanted from an evil AP.
Geb, Nex and the Worldwound also have the Mythic thing going on.
Hell's Rebels - many hoped it would be an "overthrow the Queen" type.
Hell's Vengeance - Nidal, Hold of Belkzen, Brevoy, Irrisen, Isger, Razmiran, River Kingdoms, Ustalav, etc for Avistan, while Garund and Tian Xia probably have a few places, they probably aren't "developed enough" for such an AP, aside for Osirion.
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For the record, if I recall correctly, Taldor is based more on Byzantine than Rome culturally. So the drive is a little longer than a day. ;)That just confuses me further, I mean, since when is Spain or Rome standard RPG setting and not exotic?Since everybody gets to decide for themselves what they find exotic. Maybe Spain/Rome are exotic to you, but not to me. They are literally within one day's driving distance from anglosaxon areas IRL. They are *so close* to each other culturally, when compared to looking at something like Mongols or the Maya. That comparatively small amount of separation on a global scale may be enough for you, but not for everyone.
Actually, for the record, the distance in car from Rome to Istanbul, modern day Byzantium, is a little under a day, and from somewhere like Paris to Istanbul is just slightly over a day's drive, so Samy's point still stands. Anywhere in Europe is still close to each other, so us Europeans can get pretty tired of rehashing Avistan over and over again, which is the point of this thread- maybe have less APs in the same general locale so we can have a bit to breathe!
(Also, I'm p. sure they were referring to Cheliax in that point, with the whole Spanish Inqusition/Vatican stuff, and on top of that Taldor gives off much more of a crumbling Camelot feeling than Byzantium-ish, making it more similar to Britain in my books! You know, standard fantasy fodder ;) )
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while Garund and Tian Xia probably have a few places, they probably aren't "developed enough" for such an AP, aside for Osirion.
Why would that be the case? For Tian Xia, we got The Dragon Empire Gazeteer, which gave us, and I quote, "Details on over two dozen nations and regions of the vast continent of Tian Xia", only one of which (Minkai) was touched upon during Jade Reagent. Meanwhile, yes, Garund has some places which haven't been developed much yet- which is why there should be books worked on to do so! A guide book in the vein of Rule of Fear before Carrion Crown or Numeria, Land of Fallen Stars for Iron Gods for any of the underdeveloped nations in Garund- Alkenstar, I'm looking at you- would open so many doors both for homebrew and upcoming APs, not to mention just regular old worldbuilding!
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Anywhere in Europe is still close to each other, so us Europeans can get pretty tired of rehashing Avistan over and over again, which is the point of this thread- maybe have less APs in the same general locale so we can have a bit to breathe!
To say this another way, Europe is a quite small [quasi-]continent, as is Avistan.* When overland travel was prohibitively difficult, as it remains on Golarion for the bulk of the population that can't traverse the Astral or Shadow Planes, this might not have mattered so much. To a Parisian or a Viennese, Constantinople might very well have been "exotic," and Baghdad even moreso. Not so today, when speedy overland travel is available to the common folk. Schengen also plays a role here, though not as much of one.
Although, it should be remembered that Paizo is an American company with a mostly-American player base, to whom all early modern European cultures are about equally foreign.
* A thought occurs: why is Avistan considered a continent? The Western concept of continents as large landmasses divided from each other by water comes from the Greeks, who thought of Europe, Africa, and Asia as continents. Europe was divided from Africa by the Mediterranean and from Asia by the Hellespont and the Black Sea (and northerly from the Black Sea by the Don or something). Africa was divided from Asia by the Nile.
But prior to Earthfall, the Inner Sea didn't exist, so there was no water dividing Avistan from Garund. And there is no Hellespont/Black Sea equivalent to divide Avistan from Casmaron either, only the World's Edge Mountains. Does the name "Avistan" and its conception as a continent post-date Earthfall? Is the Golarion conception of "continent" entirely different, and based on mountains rather than water? In that case, would the areas that would become Osirion, Rahadoum, and Thuvia, have been considered "Avistani" by e.g. the Thassilonians?
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While Garund and Tian Xia probably have a few places, they probably aren't "developed enough" for such an AP, aside for Osirion.
When Rise of the Runelords began, Varisia was far less detailed than Garund or Tian Xia are by now... a great deal of fleshing-out and development happens in AP volumes.
I mean, guidebooks are nice, but a big part of what AP volumes dish out is contextual background for their settings...
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I like the idea of alternating Avistan-Somewhere Else, but I think there are two main barriers to that:
First is that breaking into a new area off the map is inherently more work than writing an AP in an area already detailed (however broadly) in prior supplements. I suspect it's much easier to write an adventure about a previously unexplored nation in the Inner Sea than in Tian Xia since it's relationships with other states and how it fits into the whole is more established and part of our shared assumptions. No doubt it's even harder to introduce a nation entirely new - in a new continent or in Southern Garund, for example.
The second (which people often don't like hearing) is that the "non-eurocentric" setting books, adventures and so forth didn't sell as well. In my mind that's not a reason to not do them, since if you never do them you'll never build the market. But it does make it a riskier proposition and will therefore make it less common.
Reign of Winter and Distant Worlds were huge hits with the fans. Jade Regent and Dragon Empires were more disappointing. As such, it's unsurprising that they went with a Science-Fantasy game over an Asian-themed RPG. I suspect those economic facts have guided their decisions in AP "weirdness" also.
Again - I'd like to see more done outside of the Inner Sea (after the sensational Qadira book I think something starting there and fleshing out Katapesh more would be brilliant). There's no point ignoring the realities though. I'd like them to use the module line to build up some canon/interest in those lesser known regions. Hopefully, that trickle will develop into a sufficiently rich body of lore to make a full blown AP "somewhere else" more feasible.
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I know that a lot of people liked them, but I completely tuned out to the Hell's <Word> APs, solely due to my utter and complete disinterest in Cheliax. All the same, I'm glad that the folks that have spent years asking for more Cheliax finally got their wish.
-Skeld
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I would second a Mana-Wastes / Alkenstar AP, want more Airships, Airships/flying rules, maybe air combat rules.
Other reasons for Airships: finding lost flying/floating cities, etc...
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I would second a Mana-Wastes / Alkenstar AP, want more Airships, Airships/flying rules, maybe air combat rules.
Other reasons for Airships: finding lost flying/floating cities, etc...
Sounds cool. :)
Vudra anyone? 1000 ft tall sandstone city walls adorned with gold and jewels, psychic masters, ornate tulwars, Padaprajna warriors, thousands of deities and the mysterious maharajah etc. etc. :)
Periodically when these sorts of threads come up I chime in that I'd like to see a time travel AP.
So long as it is not another hack n slash through endless dungeons in which I need to find increasing elaborate ways to tell them the 2 page background (they've gotten much better at finding ways to give the players the info), I'm in for the weird. I really like when they give writes the opportunity to think outside of the box, paizo has done some great APs in this direction.
I'd really like an AP set in Arcadia. I feel there are some issues with how that continent was originally presented and what better opportunity to set people straight than putting an AP there.
I will also take an AP that goes to Sarusan, but it might be better to leave that place mysterious.
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With all the excitement over (and the commercial success of) the new Black Panther movie, I'd love to see an AP that centered on a lost Shory mini-nation or floating city reappearing in Garund. I know it takes up a lot of development resources to spin up all new lore for an completely undetailed half-continent, but maybe the story & PCs can spend half the time in the more detailed northern Garund and the rest in the "new" Shory city and a few "new" cities in the surrounding nations* of southern Garund.
* Such as cities in Nurvatchta, Murraseth, Droon, Nurvatchta, Holomog, and Nurvatchta.**
** Did I mention Nurvatchta?
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I’d be on board with that. It should visit Nurvatchta, too.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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** spoiler omitted **Which AP are you referring to in that spoiler?Periodically when these sorts of threads come up I chime in that I'd like to see a time travel AP.** spoiler omitted **
Interesting. I did not know that this would be a feature of that AP. My group just finished Shattered Star last night so we are looking forward to the third part of the "trilogy" anyway.
Every time I see someone saying that Jade Regent had disapointing sales I am sad. They should have made a full Tian Xia AP not third tomes in Avistan with almost no sense to have a Tengu or a Ninja. Like a lot of fan and customers I did not wanted to wait level 9 or whatever to come to Tian Xia.
Ironfang Légion had a huge potential in Tian Xia with this LE Hobgoblin country but they went with traditional fantasy again. I get it it’s safer but we would like to see more AP or modules in different countries. So many of them are screaming to be made and yet we got like 5 in Varisia and 3 in Cheliax.
Where is Rahadoum? Tian Xia? Razmir? Geb/Nex? South Garund? Alkenastre? Quadira and the Empire? Vudra? The Solar System? A full outer planes AP? Racial AP for Dwarfs, or Elves or Gnomes? Iobaria? This Greek island with mythical being? A full monsters AP? A true Darklands AP (Darkness had the same issue than Regent, we want to start in it not in the damn Varisia!)
At least War of the Crown and Hell Vengeance are typical stories but with a twist (intrigues and Evil) that make us rediscover Golarion. Damn they got one of the best setting outhere but still third AP with Varisia/Thassilon........ And I am not even counting the one with strong references to it.
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I'll say "meh...". I prefer the traditional and safe APs with the occasional weird jaunt somewhere.
I had zero interest in going to Earth and Russia in Reign of Winter which caused me to drop my AP subscription. This game is an escape for me, I don't need to come back to Earth in-game as well.
Exotic to me is locales, as well as other weirdness. I liked Serpent Skull as a far-off Jungle romp, finding a lost city is icing on the cake. Same with Mummys in a far off desert campaign. I like Garund less fleshed out than Avistan, it makes the rare trip there more memorable and keep things mysterious enough to want to return for more.
The weirdness of Cthulu and scratching the Barrier Peaks itch with Iron Gods are treats, but not necessarily something I want to live on.
I prefer Avistan to remain as a classic fantasy setting. I think Paizo has managed to put several spins on the classic setting to keep it fresh. We were able to found a kingdom, liberate a city or two, get invaded, go evil for a change, along with gothic, alien, otherworldly spins along the way.
I do wish we had a full Darklands and a full Planar campaign though before 2nd edition hits. I probably won't be along for that particular ride.
YMMV of course - standard disclaimer applies here.