Is this domain power as good as it sounds?


Advice


Aura of Chaos (Su): At 8th level, you can surround yourself with a field wild energies. These energies manifest as a 30-foot aura of chaos for a number of rounds per day equal to your cleric level. All enemies within this aura must declare one type of action at the start of their turn (attack, cast a spell, move, use an item, or activate a special ability) and make a Will save. Creatures that fail the Will save must take an action other than their declared action. If they succeed, they must take the declared action. Creatures cannot select actions that they cannot perform.

What are peoples opinions on this domain power, not the sub-par spells that come with the domain, just simply this domain power. Is it as good as it sounds? Seems to be pretty strong if they fail there Will save, and with a scaling save like most Domain powers this might not be too shabby at all.


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Great against animals and other big dumb bruisers (usually their weak save too)! Worthless against anything else of CR 8 or higher! Well, not worthless, just not that valuable. Too many things have SLAs or special attacks and I'm pretty sure the percentage goes up the higher in CR you go. So even if it fails the save it'll have a backup. And the limited range means the ones you want to shut down most (pure spellcasters) are probably not in range.

So, great against animals and other melee bruisers, not so much against everything else.


Bob Bob Bob wrote:

Great against animals and other big dumb bruisers (usually their weak save too)! Worthless against anything else of CR 8 or higher! Well, not worthless, just not that valuable. Too many things have SLAs or special attacks and I'm pretty sure the percentage goes up the higher in CR you go. So even if it fails the save it'll have a backup. And the limited range means the ones you want to shut down most (pure spellcasters) are probably not in range.

So, great against animals and other melee bruisers, not so much against everything else.

Wouldn't it help taking out its best option (the option it selects)? If say the enemy has 5 attacks and you now take away that option, he is left with casting a spell (which hopefully is worse).


You can willingly fail a save, so wouldn't enemies select something they don't want to do, fail the save and act however they wish?


Gallant Armor wrote:
You can willingly fail a save, so wouldn't enemies select something they don't want to do, fail the save and act however they wish?

I read that you can't do that when facing a SU ability on an old thread?


If the GM is metagaming against you he could do what Gallant Armor suggest, but in that case you have other issues.

I also agree with the other poster about weak will saves. Casters will likely make the save and so will monsters with stronger saves unless you are a cleric who really maxes out charisma. Of course you could take ability focus to raise the DC by 2, but whether or not it's worth it depends on how high the DC is.

Also you can fail any save willingly.

SU's generally follow the same rules as spell except where otherwise stated. That is why SU's also need line of effect. Otherwise someone could do terrible things to you from the other side of a brick wall.


I don't think it would be metagaming as long as the enemies make a knowlege check to figure out the effect, or a Wis check if used more than once on the same enemies.

Metagaming would be to include enemies that are likely to make the checks in order to foil the ability.

Liberty's Edge

Could be powerful; would definitely be a pain for the GM to keep track of.


Gallant Armor wrote:

I don't think it would be metagaming as long as the enemies make a knowlege check to figure out the effect, or a Wis check if used more than once on the same enemies.

Metagaming would be to include enemies that are likely to make the checks in order to foil the ability.

If the monster really doesnt intend to <insert action> then that's not his real choice. It is the GM announcing that as a choice so he can do what he really wants. In game it is like lying to the spell so you can do what you want, however the intent of the spell is for you to not do what you really want to do.

If the spell was just made for you not do what you said you would do then saying "I will do X" would make sense in order to avoid the effects of the spell. However what you say, and what you actually intend can be to very different things.

They should have said that you must state your actual intention since players can also try to do the same thing.

Way to game the system: State an action you don't want to take, and fail the save on purpose just to game the system. Then you can do whatever you want if the idea is that you don't have to state your true intention.


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All it says is, "All enemies within this aura must declare one type of action at the start of their turn... and make a Will save."

It doesn't says anything about it being an action you want to take.

And the intent of the effect of an Aura of Chaos isn't entirely obvious.

And it's not obvious how easy it is for a victim to understand the nature of the effect.

Without the ability to fail the save on purpose, it would be a reasonable option that you could choose something you don't want to do and hope to fail. (The "If they succeed, they must take the declared action" clause suggests to me that this kind of gamble is intended. Why would they force you to do something after you've passed a Will save unless they were trying to account for the possibility of you selecting something you don't want to do?)

It's a bit of a mess, really.


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This is just a crappy worded ability that messages too much open to interpretation. I would simply avoid this power.


Atalius wrote:
Bob Bob Bob wrote:

Great against animals and other big dumb bruisers (usually their weak save too)! Worthless against anything else of CR 8 or higher! Well, not worthless, just not that valuable. Too many things have SLAs or special attacks and I'm pretty sure the percentage goes up the higher in CR you go. So even if it fails the save it'll have a backup. And the limited range means the ones you want to shut down most (pure spellcasters) are probably not in range.

So, great against animals and other melee bruisers, not so much against everything else.

Wouldn't it help taking out its best option (the option it selects)? If say the enemy has 5 attacks and you now take away that option, he is left with casting a spell (which hopefully is worse).

The problem is that if it doesn't think it'll make the save it can always select that backup attack instead. Then if it fails the save it does what it really wants. If it succeeds it's forced to do its backup action. Which, if that backup is "cast a spell", lets it pick from half a dozen SLAs (seriously, @#$%ing everything above a certain CR gets multiple SLAs). What it would take to identify the effect or understand how it works is probably a GM call but hopefully we can all agree that the victim of said aura would know what's going on by the second round, at least. And as others have said, clearly some gaming of the system is intended (otherwise it wouldn't say you must take the action you pick and forbid you from picking actions you can't do).

Also I'm not sure how strict the "action" requirement is. Because if "move" just means to change squares then a 5-foot step would satisfy it. Since this is basically a melee range ability that would let a melee bruiser choose "move" and then either 5-foot step and full attack or just full attack.


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Claxon wrote:
This is just a crappy worded ability that messages too much open to interpretation. I would simply avoid this power.

I don't know what I was trying to say here exactly, but this is what I get for trying to type a response on my phone.

Anyways, the gist is that the wording of this ability is very poor but also the general design too. By metagaming you can definitely just say you will do something you don't want to do and then purposefully fail so you can do whatever you want besides that.

The ability should have been something more like:

Quote:

On a failed save the affected individual performs 1 of the following actions:

1) Attack with a weapon (either ranged or melee, including unarmed strikes, even if you would provoke an AoO for doing so)
2) Cast a spell
3) Use an item in hand (or attempt to retrieve one)
4) Activate a supernatural or SLA ability

Roll a d4 to decide. The target perform the specified action, or takes actions that would enable them to perform the action as needed during their turn. If a target isn't able to perform a type of action (cast a spell or use a SU or SLA) then reroll.


Ahh, would be nice to get this domain power reworded. Its a decent enough domain.


The easiest way to fix it would be to revise the clauses on which it functions.

The ability would kick in when an enemy performs an action, with them making a Will Save, failure resulting in the action being revoked and unable to be performed that round. This can cut out the metagaming and also provides the intended function of making enemies not in full control of their actions, without anything supremely powerful.


I'm not sure I get it. If your action is revoked, do you lose your standard action? If so, that would be pretty similar to "make a Will save every round or be nauseated".

And if not, what happens if you choose an action you don't care about and then fail your Will save on purpose?


Matthew Downie wrote:

I'm not sure I get it. If your action is revoked, do you lose your standard action? If so, that would be pretty similar to "make a Will save every round or be nauseated".

And if not, what happens if you choose an action you don't care about and then fail your Will save on purpose?

I think his idea was each action you try, so you want to move, failed your save, you still have your action but now can't move with it. Want to attack, well now you can't. Want to cast a spell, nope. want to do a SLA okay you passed that time. you cast the sla this turn.


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Matthew Downie wrote:

I'm not sure I get it. If your action is revoked, do you lose your standard action? If so, that would be pretty similar to "make a Will save every round or be nauseated".

And if not, what happens if you choose an action you don't care about and then fail your Will save on purpose?

The point behind the change is that there is no choice to be had. The first action an enemy takes requires a Will Save or they are unable to perform that action for that turn. (No actions are lost, just the action type is.)

This cuts out the metagaming, has useful ramifications, and isn't overbearingly powerful. Smart enemies might understand the effect and plan around it, which is fine. But it would take a round or two to calculate this, and if the Cleric can turn it on or off by his whim, it can still baffle even smart enemies.


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Matthew Downie wrote:

I'm not sure I get it. If your action is revoked, do you lose your standard action? If so, that would be pretty similar to "make a Will save every round or be nauseated".

And if not, what happens if you choose an action you don't care about and then fail your Will save on purpose?

Yeah, that's the problem the rest of us are pointing out. you can metagame your way out of the effect by choosing an action you don't care about and choosing to fail.

The spell as written doesn't cause you to lose any of your action types (standard, move, swift, etc) it just says you must do X action (the one you chose) if you succeed at a will save, or you can't do X action if you fail and instead must do something else.


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The simplest way around that is to just house away the ability to choose to fail the saving throw.


Great idea Darksol


blahpers wrote:
The simplest way around that is to just house away the ability to choose to fail the saving throw.

This too. It really makes characters have to think about what they want to do.


Not in my opinion. The best way is for the ability to follow the format of most other abilities, in that if you save successfully you're unaffected, and if you're not then a penalty of some sort is applied.

Really, this should work like the confusion spell, but with a slightly different effects table.


Claxon wrote:

Not in my opinion. The best way is for the ability to follow the format of most other abilities, in that if you save successfully you're unaffected, and if you're not then a penalty of some sort is applied.

Really, this should work like the confusion spell, but with a slightly different effects table.

It does follow the format. If you're in the area and perform an action, you make a save, with consequences for failure.

As for Confusion, I believe that's covered in other domains, like Madness or Trickery.

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Confusion is much more powerful than this effect, as with this you still get to choose what else you do even on a failed save.

A good way to cheesily defend against this, at least for a lot of classes and monsters, is to declare "activate a special ability" with the intent to use something that's a swift or free action. Even if you fail, you still get to attack/cast spells/do nearly your whole normal turn.


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ryric wrote:

Confusion is much more powerful than this effect, as with this you still get to choose what else you do even on a failed save.

A good way to cheesily defend against this, at least for a lot of classes and monsters, is to declare "activate a special ability" with the intent to use something that's a swift or free action. Even if you fail, you still get to attack/cast spells/do nearly your whole normal turn.

Denying an enemy one kind of action, even if only a Swift Action, is still pretty nice depending on the effect being potentially negated. This can range from Lay On Hands to Quickened Spells.

The only way you can cheese it is by taking an action that is purposefully useless, of which there aren't many, and if you try to fake the saving throw, you may end up taking an action you normally wouldn't make.

Also consider that this is merely one piece of a puzzle; I imagine a Cleric isn't just going to sit there and simply run the domain power, he will have other tools at his disposal that will effectively control what his enemies do on the battlefield.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
The point behind the change is that there is no choice to be had. The first action an enemy takes requires a Will Save or they are unable to perform that action for that turn. (No actions are lost, just the action type is.)

That's still a choice - the type of action you try to do first. And you can still try to do something you don't want and then fail the save on purpose. That seems mechanically identical to the ability as written, although it probably saves on explanations.

(Unless you also have to make a Will save against the second type of action you attempt, and so on, until you succeed at one.)


Matthew Downie wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
The point behind the change is that there is no choice to be had. The first action an enemy takes requires a Will Save or they are unable to perform that action for that turn. (No actions are lost, just the action type is.)

That's still a choice - the type of action you try to do first. And you can still try to do something you don't want and then fail the save on purpose. That seems mechanically identical to the ability as written, although it probably saves on explanations.

(Unless you also have to make a Will save against the second type of action you attempt, and so on, until you succeed at one.)

Like I said, denying the option to purposefully fail a saving throw would be the other component in making the ability function as intended (and is something that I would fully enforce as a GM). Chaotic Energies making you take actions you don't want to take, or being forced to take other, less desirable actions for some unfoundable reason, is precisely what the ability is meant to do, and I can easily say those Chaotic Energies obstruct your ability to choose to fail the saving throw.

When the mechanics don't match up with the ability's intended function, changes need to be made to reflect that.

(This would be better for a Fear domain of some kind, and would function as a Fear and Mind-affecting effect if that was the case.)

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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
ryric wrote:

Confusion is much more powerful than this effect, as with this you still get to choose what else you do even on a failed save.

A good way to cheesily defend against this, at least for a lot of classes and monsters, is to declare "activate a special ability" with the intent to use something that's a swift or free action. Even if you fail, you still get to attack/cast spells/do nearly your whole normal turn.

Denying an enemy one kind of action, even if only a Swift Action, is still pretty nice depending on the effect being potentially negated. This can range from Lay On Hands to Quickened Spells.

The only way you can cheese it is by taking an action that is purposefully useless, of which there aren't many, and if you try to fake the saving throw, you may end up taking an action you normally wouldn't make.

Also consider that this is merely one piece of a puzzle; I imagine a Cleric isn't just going to sit there and simply run the domain power, he will have other tools at his disposal that will effectively control what his enemies do on the battlefield.

Oh, I absolutely agree that it's a nice ability. I'm just pointing out that there are ways to mitigate its effects without metagaming it and deliberately failing saves. The more things you plan to do with your turn, the better off you are, because you can always pick the least important thing to declare. An inquisitor who plans to full attack and switch judgments can choose which of those two things is least important and declare that one. An already raging barbarian who plans to just full attack is a little more stuck if they fail.


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You can willingly fail a save against a spell, but I’m not aware of a general rule. And in that case you’d need to see the spell being cast in order to accept it based on the caster (an ally) or what it is (because you used Spellcraft). This aura isn’t a spell and you can’t identify it to know what it is and accept the effect, even if you were to allow a voluntary failure.


Interesting I didn't know know an enemy can't identify what it is when its being cast. That certainly is a very good point.


Xenocrat wrote:
This aura isn’t a spell and you can’t identify it to know what it is

Wrong since the Spymaster's Handbook. The "Recall Intrigues" feature of the knowledge skill says "You can attempt a skill check to identify a feat or class feature when you observe it in use, similar to how Spellcraft can be used to identify a spell. The feat or class feature must have some observable effect in order for you to attempt the Knowledge check." with the check for "class feature from [not nature themed] class that grants divine spells" being a Knowledge Religion check with DC "10 + class level when feature is granted".

Regarding voluntarily failing a save on a non-spell, I don't think that's true, either. The CRB might only state it in regards to spells, but then the CRB also has the polymorph rules only talk about spells, states that all divine casters prepare spells, and so on. Meanwhile, the Masked Maiden Vigilante archetype has a class feature that says "The masked maiden cannot choose to fail this Will save.", which strongly implies a general rule.


I did get confirmation from Mark Seifter on willingly failing a saving throw, he said yes you can.


@Derklord: Well that's an interesting update to part of game that was lacking (Knowledge checks re: class features or Feats) so thanks for informing about that feature of Spymaster's Handbook (although gotta say... smells like Splat that should be Core Errata)... But in this case I don't think it applies, given the "must have observable effect" clause.

@Wraithstrike: Is there any general rule state Su use CHA by default? This isn't a racial/monster ability, it is class ability which otherwise uses WIS. Other Su Domain powers with DCs state they use WIS, I think the fact that this one doesn't state a Save DC stat is just another aspect of bad writing/editing. (Relatedly, I believe some Domain abilities listed as Sp but with 1/2 level + WIS formula, like Trickery's Master's Illusion, should actually be Su abilities, since that is very non-standard for Sp to have DC unrelated to it's effective spell level... But in the meantime enjoy DC buffs to spellcasting)

re: Madness Domain's Aura of Madness (Confusion effect), it's downside vs this is they are immune for 24h once they save (VS saves continuing every round even after Save with Aura of Chaos) AND the effect drops immediately once they step outside the Aura of Madness... which is not entirely uncommon when they roll "ATTACK NEAREST CREATURE" which requires them to move outside aura to attack their ally. As well as the whole "even when they fail Save, 25% of chance of act normally, and 25% chance "attack nearest creature" may often be the same as act normally" thing.

And sure, some creatures may have "other options" but the reason they weren't using those to begin with was because they were probably suboptimal, so using Aura of Chaos basically is throwing a wrench in their plans, living up to it's name. Even when your alternate Su ability or whatever is 'beneficial' it often will not be so in the same way as your intended spellcasting (or whatever), i.e. will be a buff instead of direct attack, or will have negative side-effect in the given situation etc.


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Quandary wrote:
although gotta say... smells like Splat that should be Core Errata

Agreed, and it's somethign that I generally hate. I realised that "wrong" was too strong a word, but edit time had run out.

Quandary wrote:
But in this case I don't think it applies, given the "must have observable effect" clause.

I didn't quote the entire description. The intend seems to be for everything that needs to be activated to be identifiable.

Full Text:
Recall Intrigues (Knowledge)
You can identify feats and the class features of various classes with successful Knowledge checks when you observe the feats or class features being used.

Check: You can attempt a skill check to identify a feat or class feature when you observe it in use, similar to how Spellcraft can be used to identify a spell. The feat or class feature must have some observable effect in order for you to attempt the Knowledge check. For example, you can’t see the internal determination of Iron Will, so this ability can’t identify that feat. In general, if a feat or class feature creates a noticeable effect (such as the extra attack from using Cleave) or has a variable modifier a character must choose to use (such as Arcane Strike, Combat Expertise, or Enlarge Spell), it can be identified. If it creates a static bonus (such as Dodge or Lightning Reflexes), there’s no telltale sign to give it away.

The Knowledge skill required to identify a feat or class feature varies depending on the type of feat or class feature to be identified and is outlined in the Recall Intrigues (Knowledge) table [below], along with the DCs of such skill checks.

­
Task | Knowledge Skill | DC
Identify a class feature from a class that grants arcane or psychic spells | Arcana | 10 + class level when feature is granted*
Identify a class feature from a class with access to the druid or ranger spell list | Nature | 10 + class level when feature is granted*
Identify a class feature from another class that grants divine spells | Religion | 10 + class level when feature is granted*
Identify a class feature from any other class | Local | 10 + class level when feature is granted*
Identify a combat feat being used | Local | 10 + character’s level
Identify a metamagic feat being used | Arcana | 10 + character’s level
Identify a teamwork feat being used | Nobility | 10 + character’s level
Identify any other feat being used | Local | 15 + character’s level

* Add 10 to the DC if the class is a prestige class.


You guys would really do that?

Player: "I use my power to block the bad guy from doing what he really wants to do."

GM: "Then he'll just choose to do something he doesn't want to do and purposefully fail!"

Player: "What? That completely negates what I was trying to use this for. What's the point of this ability anymore?"

GM: "There IS NO POINT to this ability anymore. Mwahahahahahaha!"


But what do you do if there's an ability that doesn't work properly as written?

There are certainly ways a GM could do something to make it be less useless, but it's not obvious what. Make it so that you have to keep making Will saves, one for each action type you try, until you pass? Make it impossible to intentionally fail this particular save? Make it so that the enemies are too stupid to try to game the system? Add a Knowledge check to identify whether the enemy can figure out the solution?


Make it so that you have to declare your real action as clearly intended.

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Ready an action to use some variant of command to make the foe do the thing they declared?


slade867 wrote:
Make it so that you have to declare your real action as clearly intended.

Not clear to me.

"If they succeed, they must take the declared action. Creatures cannot select actions that they cannot perform."
This makes me think they intended for people to be able to try to game the system.

My house-rule is that you can't intentionally fail this save. You can name any action, but don't know for sure what you're going to end up doing. This makes the aura have an appropriately chaotic effect, and is easier to enforce.


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Perhaps a better way to construct the ability, at the start of their turn the enemy declares two action types. On a failed save, the cleric gets to choose which one they take, on a success the target gets to choose. Now there's no incentive to fail. The cleric can't choose any specifics, just the broad action type. So if an enemy wizard has a staff and says cast a spell/use an item, the cleric can say use an item, but the wizard still chooses which item (his staff) and what specific ability of that item.

You essentially limit them to their top two choices, but those are still pretty broad, stays within the spirit of the ability, and doesn't add any real power to the ability.


Matthew Downie wrote:

But what do you do if there's an ability that doesn't work properly as written?

There are certainly ways a GM could do something to make it be less useless, but it's not obvious what. Make it so that you have to keep making Will saves, one for each action type you try, until you pass? Make it impossible to intentionally fail this particular save? Make it so that the enemies are too stupid to try to game the system? Add a Knowledge check to identify whether the enemy can figure out the solution?

RAW it would take a DC 18 Knowledge Religion check per the rules Derklord quoted. Many enemies won't even be able to attempt the check and others will have a decent chance of failure. However, once one enemy makes the check they can inform their comrades on what to do.

I don't think this is something that is likely to come up often, but it does seem like something that should be addressed by devs to avoid GMs negating a class ability.


Derklord wrote:
Quandary wrote:
although gotta say... smells like Splat that should be Core Errata

Agreed, and it's somethign that I generally hate. I realised that "wrong" was too strong a word, but edit time had run out.

Quandary wrote:
But in this case I don't think it applies, given the "must have observable effect" clause.

I didn't quote the entire description. The intend seems to be for everything that needs to be activated to be identifiable.

** spoiler omitted **...

Is that something that everyone can do or is that a feat to do it?


Quandary wrote:

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@Wraithstrike: Is there any general rule state Su use CHA by default? This isn't a racial/monster ability, it is class ability which otherwise uses WIS. Other Su Domain powers with DCs state they use WIS, I think the fact that this one doesn't state a Save DC stat is just another aspect of bad writing/editing. (Relatedly, I believe some Domain abilities listed as Sp but with 1/2 level + WIS formula, like Trickery's Master's Illusion, should actually be Su abilities, since that is very non-standard for Sp to have DC unrelated to it's effective spell level... But in the meantime enjoy DC buffs to spellcasting)

Someone said it was an SLA so I didnt check behind them. I know SLA's default to CHA.

As for SU's, and honestly I still haven't checked to see what this is, that is normally called out in the description so I guess I'd better check to see which ability score is called out.

After checking: It doesn't say what this ability uses, which isn't good. SU's are supposed to say which ability score something is based on. As an example at the end of the description you normally see something such as what is typed below if it's not explained earlier in the description.

example of how the DC description tends to be written for SU's:

Quote:
The save DC against a breath weapon is 10 + 1/2 dragon's HD + dragon's Con modifier.

As an example of a class ability that is better written would be a witches hexes since they call out intelligence as the stat that increases the DC.

In this case, since no ability score is mentioned, I would say it's wisdom for the ability being discussed.

edit:I did say SU's. I apologize for that. I have no reason why I wrote SU's used Cha when I know its not true for many of them.


slade867 wrote:

You guys would really do that?

Player: "I use my power to block the bad guy from doing what he really wants to do."

GM: "Then he'll just choose to do something he doesn't want to do and purposefully fail!"

Player: "What? That completely negates what I was trying to use this for. What's the point of this ability anymore?"

GM: "There IS NO POINT to this ability anymore. Mwahahahahahaha!"

Most of us wouldn't but there are GM's that would. Since the book doesnt call out intended actions some will use that as an excuse. Others might not do it if the ability was written more clearly. However the player can't make a GM not metagame. All he can is not play at that table anymore.


Chess Pwn wrote:
Derklord wrote:
Quandary wrote:
although gotta say... smells like Splat that should be Core Errata

Agreed, and it's somethign that I generally hate. I realised that "wrong" was too strong a word, but edit time had run out.

Quandary wrote:
But in this case I don't think it applies, given the "must have observable effect" clause.

I didn't quote the entire description. The intend seems to be for everything that needs to be activated to be identifiable.

** spoiler omitted **...

Is that something that everyone can do or is that a feat to do it?

It's an extension of the knowledge skills as a general rule. No feat is required.

edit: I don't know if the paperback player companion books are seen as core rules or optional core rules though, and this is from a player companion book.


wraithstrike wrote:
Quandary wrote:

.

@Wraithstrike: Is there any general rule state Su use CHA by default? This isn't a racial/monster ability, it is class ability which otherwise uses WIS. Other Su Domain powers with DCs state they use WIS, I think the fact that this one doesn't state a Save DC stat is just another aspect of bad writing/editing. (Relatedly, I believe some Domain abilities listed as Sp but with 1/2 level + WIS formula, like Trickery's Master's Illusion, should actually be Su abilities, since that is very non-standard for Sp to have DC unrelated to it's effective spell level... But in the meantime enjoy DC buffs to spellcasting)

Someone said it was an SLA so I didnt check behind them. I know SLA's default to CHA.

As for SU's, and honestly I still haven't checked to see what this is, that is normally called out in the description so I guess I'd better check to see which ability score is called out.

After checking: It doesn't say what this ability uses, which isn't good. SU's are supposed to say which ability score something is based on. As an example at the end of the description you normally see something such as what is typed below if it's not explained earlier in the description.

example of how the DC description tends to be written for SU's:

Quote:
The save DC against a breath weapon is 10 + 1/2 dragon's HD + dragon's Con modifier.

As an example of a class ability that is better written would be a witches hexes since they call out intelligence as the stat that increases the DC.

In this case, since no ability score is mentioned, I would say it's wisdom for the ability being discussed.

edit:I did say SU's. I apologize for that. I have no reason why I wrote SU's used Cha when I know its not true for many of them.

Quote:
If a domain or subdomain ability calls for a saving throw, the DC of the save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the character’s cleric level + her Wisdom modifier.


Chess Pwn wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Quandary wrote:

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@Wraithstrike: Is there any general rule state Su use CHA by default? This isn't a racial/monster ability, it is class ability which otherwise uses WIS. Other Su Domain powers with DCs state they use WIS, I think the fact that this one doesn't state a Save DC stat is just another aspect of bad writing/editing. (Relatedly, I believe some Domain abilities listed as Sp but with 1/2 level + WIS formula, like Trickery's Master's Illusion, should actually be Su abilities, since that is very non-standard for Sp to have DC unrelated to it's effective spell level... But in the meantime enjoy DC buffs to spellcasting)

Someone said it was an SLA so I didnt check behind them. I know SLA's default to CHA.

As for SU's, and honestly I still haven't checked to see what this is, that is normally called out in the description so I guess I'd better check to see which ability score is called out.

After checking: It doesn't say what this ability uses, which isn't good. SU's are supposed to say which ability score something is based on. As an example at the end of the description you normally see something such as what is typed below if it's not explained earlier in the description.

example of how the DC description tends to be written for SU's:

Quote:
The save DC against a breath weapon is 10 + 1/2 dragon's HD + dragon's Con modifier.

As an example of a class ability that is better written would be a witches hexes since they call out intelligence as the stat that increases the DC.

In this case, since no ability score is mentioned, I would say it's wisdom for the ability being discussed.

edit:I did say SU's. I apologize for that. I have no reason why I wrote SU's used Cha when I know its not true for many of them.

Quote:
If a domain or subdomain ability calls for a saving throw, the DC of the save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the character’s cleric level + her Wisdom modifier.

I was looking for that and couldn't find it so I thought it was a rule I had made up. Thanks.

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