Low int and spells with metamagic.


Rules Questions


Hello guys, got a spell casting question.

Lets say we have a lv 5 wizard with an INT of 11. He has been using his level 2 and 3 slots with magic missile via rule:

"Spell Slots: The various character class tables show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day. These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower levels."

Can said wizard use empowered magic missile as a 3rd level spell slot?

Bonus rule material:
"To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the wizard must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a wizard’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the wizard’s Intelligence modifier."

"Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal. This does not change the level of the spell, so the DC for saving throws against it does not go up. Metamagic feats do not affect spell-like abilities."

" In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast using a higher-level spell slot."

Thanks Guys!


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This FAQ implies that you wouldn't be able to.

Core Rulebook FAQ wrote:

Metamagic: At what spell level does the spell count for concentration DCs, magus spell recall, or a pearl of power?

The spell counts as the level of the spell slot necessary to cast it.

For example, an empowered burning hands uses a 3rd-level spell slot, counts as a 3rd-level spell for making concentration checks, counts as a 3rd-level spell for a magus's spell recall or a pearl of power.

In general, use the (normal, lower) spell level or the (higher) spell slot level, whichever is more of a disadvantage for the caster. The advantages of the metamagic feat are spelled out in the Benefits section of the feat, and the increased spell slot level is a disadvantage.

Heighten Spell is really the only metamagic feat that makes using a higher-level spell slot an advantage instead of a disadvantage.[Emphasis added]

So the spell would count as a 3rd-level spell for being able to cast it.

I wouldn't be surprised if a GM in a home game let it slide, though.


Sounds fair enough to me. Got me an arcanist with some...subpar stats. 11 int being his highest stat (-3 point buy equivalent). If I was dming, I would allow it.

I understand that spells use the higher spell slot for reference of all those abilities. Was hoping someone would say, "Its still just a level 1 spell for terms of intelligence being required, to learn and cast." Think I could try and fight for it, but just not worth it enough for me.

thanks for the reply o/


The int only counts as prereq for the actual spell level, and the spell level does not change with metamagic feats. Those feats only effect the spell slot that is used, except for heighten spell.

As for the FAQ, the devs said the FAQ's only count for the specific question asked so it has no bearing on metamagic slots and int.

As a GM you can houserule that it applies to spell slot used instead of the spell level, but going by the book, and what is actually written, the lower int would work on metamagic'd spells.


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wraithstrike, I usually agree with your posts. In this case, I highly disagree.

If the devs intended that FAQ to only apply to "concentration DCs, magus spell recall, or a pearl of power," they would not have provided the general clarification (emphasized in my post above). By your interpretation, the entire third paragraph of that FAQ means nada. Why include a clause about the general treatment of metamagic feats if the FAQ only applies to the specific case listed?

Furthermore, the very first sentence of the FAQ states that the spell counts as the level of the spell slot used in the cases they treated. It doesn't say that the spell "counts as the original level, but uses a higher spell slot."

Extending to the general case a maximized magic missile counts as a fourth level spell (the level of the spell slot used) when it is disadvantageous for it to do so. Not being able to cast the spell counts as a disadvantage, so ...

Is there a dev statement I missed specifically about this FAQ? Because if not, my opinion of the rules stays the same, for the reasons stated above. I understand that you think it's impossible to extend this FAQ to a general case. We're just likely to disagree on this one.

--

Seravix, that sounds like a pretty crappy situation to be in. 11 in a primary casting stat is pretty awful. If I were you, I'd strongly advocate either allowing the metamagics to work (regardless of the exact RAW that wraithstrike and I disagree over currently), or (more likely) a reroll. Best of luck.


Cheburn wrote:

wraithstrike, I usually agree with your posts. In this case, I highly disagree.

If the devs intended that FAQ to only apply to "concentration DCs, magus spell recall, or a pearl of power," they would not have provided the general clarification (emphasized in my post above). By your interpretation, the entire third paragraph of that FAQ means nada. Why include a clause about the general treatment of metamagic feats if the FAQ only applies to the specific case listed?

Furthermore, the very first sentence of the FAQ states that the spell counts as the level of the spell slot used in the cases they treated. It doesn't say that the spell "counts as the original level, but uses a higher spell slot."

Extending to the general case a maximized magic missile counts as a fourth level spell (the level of the spell slot used) when it is disadvantageous for it to do so. Not being able to cast the spell counts as a disadvantage, so ...

Is there a dev statement I missed specifically about this FAQ? Because if not, my opinion of the rules stays the same, for the reasons stated above. I understand that you think it's impossible to extend this FAQ to a general case. We're just likely to disagree on this one.

--

Seravix, that sounds like a pretty crappy situation to be in. 11 in a primary casting stat is pretty awful. If I were you, I'd strongly advocate either allowing the metamagics to work (regardless of the exact RAW that wraithstrike and I disagree over currently), or (more likely) a reroll. Best of luck.

I missed the concentration check in the FAQ. I guess that is enough to extend it to the casting stat for me.


I'm confused - 11 as the highest stat has to be pre-racial, otherwise it doesn't work out with -3 point buy equivalent, so post-racial, you should have a 13. Putting the +1 ever 4th level into the casting stat, such a character would be able to cast spell until 11th level, at which point a +2 headband is needed.

So if you're truly unable to cast spells, that means you're forced to play a crappy race in addition to an abysmal roll.

This isn't a rule problem. Ask your GM what the hell was wrong with them. Seriously, what kind of jerk GM forces their players to play with what's way below even a basic NPC array?


Different pains for different campaigns, Derklord.

/once played a 2E character with 9 as her highest score
//next time, on "When Rolling Straight 3d6 Goes Wrong"

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

I'd have to agree with the quotes on RAW & FAQ implication that higher spell slots using metamagics(in this case heighten) require higher ability scores. If the spell wasn't metamagiced and just uses the spell slot then the lower ability score caster is good to go.
To cast a Third level spell (with metamagics) a creatures needs 10+3 in the primary casting ability.
Time to get a Headband INT +2.


Derklord wrote:

I'm confused - 11 as the highest stat has to be pre-racial, otherwise it doesn't work out with -3 point buy equivalent, so post-racial, you should have a 13. Putting the +1 ever 4th level into the casting stat, such a character would be able to cast spell until 11th level, at which point a +2 headband is needed.

So if you're truly unable to cast spells, that means you're forced to play a crappy race in addition to an abysmal roll.

This isn't a rule problem. Ask your GM what the hell was wrong with them. Seriously, what kind of jerk GM forces their players to play with what's way below even a basic NPC array?

My pre-racial base stats are... Str 9, Dex 11, Con 8, Int 9, Wis 9, Cha 11. I went human and made my int 11.

DM isn't a jerk. He would let me change my stats if I asked. I'm looking at this sorta like a challenge on my part since other players rolled 2d6+6 for their rolling method. I chose to roll 3d6 and put the stats down on paper how they rolled and made whatever I could with them (sorcerer prob would have been better for 13 cha). At level 1, I'm still doing 3d4+3 damage magic missiles 3/day...but I'm more worried about the late game. Sooo, that's why I needed to know the rules on metamagic.


Unless you don't get access to a headband or Automatic Bonus Progression, you can still cast your spells just fine if you put all pips into Int.

Seravix wrote:
sorcerer prob would have been better for 13 cha

With stats like that, I'd play a Summoner, but then again, I'm not a masochist.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

Man, those stats remind me of my BECMI days. Good luck to you sir!


I think your magic missile damage is off somewhere unless either something else is houseruled. Magic missile at first level should only be 1d4+1


Talonhawke wrote:
I think your magic missile damage is off somewhere unless either something else is houseruled. Magic missile at first level should only be 1d4+1

You are right, but not for being level 1. Sadly I can't do what I wanted to because my int is 11, if it was 13 I could do it. I can still get 2d4+2. I was going to go:

Lv 1 Arcanist +1 CL
Feat: Spell Specialization +2 CL
Class Feature: Arcane Reservoir +1 CL
Arcane Exploits: Potent Magic +1 CL

There are other feats/traits/items to raise caster level, but this is about as much as I wanted to go into it. Strong beginning, meh ending.

Shadow Lodge

Don't you just love when FAQs go against what's written? If not for the 'in general' part you could still use Metamagic on lower level spells just fine.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Heighten Spell (Metamagic) from 3e SRD OGL on DandWiki wrote:
Benefit: A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a minor globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.

it's all new... I'm a bit rusty, is that irony?

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