Deliquescent Gloves and Flying Kick ?


Rules Questions

Scarab Sages

Hello there,

I'm a bit confused by the Deliquescent Gloves and how it works with the Flying Kick Style of the Unchained Monk.

The item description says that the corrosive property is added to the weapon held by the gloved hand or natural attack made with the gloved hand.

But for the monk I was always assuming that we just consider all of his attack "unarmed" and don't bother to actually separate each limb. For example the feat weapon proficiency doesn't requir to pick either "fist", "kick", "headbutt" and so on.
It only matters when your monk is helding some items with his hands and can only kick, but that just fluff and have no rules change about how the attack works.

So, since :
- All of the Unarmed attack of the Monk seems to be just one and only category no matter which part of his body he use.
- But the Deliquescent Gloves insist on the "gloved hand"
- and the Flying kick insist on "It must be a kick"

Does the kick has the corrosive property ?

Well, I guess you could bypass that by saying "I touch my leg with my hand while kicking" but I am curious about the proper rule.

PS : English is not my main langage, I apologize if I'm a bit hard to understand.


The important part of the item description is "If the wearer uses that hand (...) make an attack with an unarmed strike (...), that attack gains the corrosive weapon special ability."
You are not using that hand to make the unarmed strike, you're using your foot.

Yes, your entire body is basically a weapon, but you still have to decide which part to use for any given attack. It's basically like a double weapon - it's one weapon, but you have to decide which end you use for any given attack, and use that end's statistics.


See the FAQ Core Rulebook on unarmed strike and Magic Fang.
While the gloves are slot(hands) and the style says, "Flying Kick: The monk leaps through the air to strike a foe with a kick. Before the attack, the monk can move a distance equal to his fast movement bonus. This movement is made as part of the monk’s flurry of blows attack and does not require an additional action. At the end of this movement, the monk must make an attack against an adjacent foe. This movement may be between attacks. This movement provokes an attack of opportunity as normal. The attack made after the movement must be a kick."

Unfortunately the style wording is very specific and the gloves have similar wording. I want to say "yes" but the specific wording between the two descriptions argues "no" and they are not a cast spell like Magic Fang where the caster can control where the spell effect goes. So NO.

I think you need to ask your home game GM. After reading the three references he may say yes. The simple solution is Deliquescent Boots.

For PFS I think the answer is going to be a consistent "no".

Scarab Sages

My Life Is In Ruins wrote:

See the FAQ Core Rulebook on unarmed strike and Magic Fang.

While the gloves are slot(hands) and the style says, "Flying Kick: The monk leaps through the air to strike a foe with a kick. Before the attack, the monk can move a distance equal to his fast movement bonus. This movement is made as part of the monk’s flurry of blows attack and does not require an additional action. At the end of this movement, the monk must make an attack against an adjacent foe. This movement may be between attacks. This movement provokes an attack of opportunity as normal. The attack made after the movement must be a kick."

Unfortunately the style wording is very specific and the gloves have similar wording. I want to say "yes" but the specific wording between the two descriptions argues "no" and they are not a cast spell like Magic Fang where the caster can control where the spell effect goes. So NO.

I think you need to ask your home game GM. After reading the three references he may say yes. The simple solution is Deliquescent Boots.

For PFS I think the answer is going to be a consistent "no".

Thanks for the reply.

Boots doesn't exist by raw so it's not possible for my actual concern.

Pretty sure it's bad wording in my opinion. It's just way too weird that nearly everything in the game considers "Unarmed attack" as "whole body" and then, out of nowhere, an effect wants you to pick a body part. I suspect they just forget that you could hit with something else than fist, but since it's wrote that way I will need to go along with it I guess.

Regarding what I say first, what would actually prevent a Monk to say "Hey, I grab my leg with the gloved hand. My leg is my weapon, and I'm holding it. Corrosive apply" ?


No you cannot apply corrosive on the kick.


There IS a way to apply Deliquescent Gloves to flying kick. A catfolk monk FCB: +1/2 to the monk’s damage rolls with claw attacks and claw blades and if selected at 1st level also treats claw blades as a monk weapon and can use his style strikes with claw blade attacks.

SO a catfolk monk can 'flying kick' with an corrosive claw blade. ;)

Scarab Sages

I don’t add the acid on the kick for my Monk. There’s not really any point in it specifying the attack must be a kick if it doesn’t matter.


this is a case where specific wording in a description overcomes the general rule.
If the gloves (like Magic Fang) had more generic words like,
"gives one natural weapon or unarmed strike of the subject an added 1d6 of lethal acid damage to damage rolls"
you would have been good.

Scarab Sages

Ferious Thune wrote:
I don’t add the acid on the kick for my Monk. There’s not really any point in it specifying the attack must be a kick if it doesn’t matter.

So basically, they purposely added the "kick" part on the Flying kick ONLY so that it would mess with THIS specific item ? Seems silly to me.

Because I can't see another situation where that specific wording is usefull.
Maybe if your movements are somewhat restricted, like chains on the kneels of feets glued to the ground, but that is for movement and have nothing to do with the attack part (It would prevent you from moving, but your attack would still be resolved as usual whithout specifying which part of the body is used).


Shaheer-El-Khatib wrote:
So basically, they purposely added the "kick" part on the Flying kick ONLY so that it would mess with THIS specific item ? Seems silly to me.

With this kind of item, yes. Just like headbutt.

Shaheer-El-Khatib wrote:
Because I can't see another situation where that specific wording is usefull.

I don't think it was meant to be useful but restrictive. Now I don't understand WHY it's made to be restrictive, but they seemed to think it was unneeded.

All the issues go away if you take catfolk FCB or the Ascetic Form feat [You can use the chosen melee weapon with any class ability that can be used with an unarmed strike, such as an unchained monk’s style strike ability.] Add that to Ascetic style[Special: A 5th-level monk or character with the weapon training (monk) class feature can use Ascetic Style with any monk weapon, in addition to the chosen melee weapon.] and you can use generic unarmed strike, which could be a punch, as a flying kick.


I feel like if there is any purpose to the "this is a kick, headbutt, etc." text it is to rule out the application of anything that does not apply to that particular body part. Now certainly one could add additional mechanics (like the catfolk FCB, or ascetic style) to make something apply when it would not by default, but absent anything like that, you shouldn't apply the glove damage to your flying kick (but you can on the rest of the flurry).

Dark Archive

Given how potent both flying kick and the gloves are it is not a huge draw back.


Would not a Corrosive AoMF work for the Flying Kick?

/cevah


Sure, but you have to pay the +1 price for that. Gloves are cheaper and stack.


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AoMF does not need the base +1 that a weapon needs. So a Corrosive AoMF is 4,000 gp. Gloves are 8,000 gp.

As to stacking, the AoMF stacks on any unarmed strike, including the Flying Kick.

/cevah

Scarab Sages

I think they added the restriction that it needed to be a kick, because they were trying to add flavor to the style strikes. Elbow Smash has to be an Elbow, Shattering Punch has to be a punch, Flying Kick has to be a kick.

I think Deliquescent Gloves limited it to attacks with your hands, because that is the flavor of that item.

The two just happen to not intersect in a way that you can use one with the other.

Scarab Sages

Cevah wrote:

AoMF does not need the base +1 that a weapon needs. So a Corrosive AoMF is 4,000 gp. Gloves are 8,000 gp.

As to stacking, the AoMF stacks on any unarmed strike, including the Flying Kick.

/cevah

Correct. But assuming you want something other than Corrosive on your AoMF, which is very likely, adding Corrosive on top of that would cost 12,000. And it makes adding something else more expensive later.

The gloves are popular because it's cheaper than tacking them onto your amulet, and they use a magic item slot that doesn't have a lot of useful items for a monk. So when looking at options to improve damage, the 8,000 gold cost is reasonable, when your amulet is taken up with something like Agile already.


What Thune said.

Scarab Sages

Also, keep in mind that Unchained was the book that broke general conventions in the game. It wasn’t obligated to follow rules like one unarmed attack is the same as any other unarmed attack. It didn’t go so far as to override the ruling on magic fang/magic weapon, but it did introduce the use of specific limbs in specific attacks. It’s up to us to reconcile that with rules outside of Unchained. In this case, it looks like that means flying kick doesn’t work with the gloves. It’s only for the attack you make after the move, though. That’s the only attack that has to be a kick. It’s a really small negative on an amazing ability that essentially gives monks short range pounce. Losing 1d6 that a lot of things are going to be resistant to anyway is not a big deal.


Better than pounce. No movement restrictions, no ac penalties, any point during your attack routine. So good.


toastedamphibian wrote:
Better than pounce. No movement restrictions, no ac penalties, any point during your attack routine. So good.

It's nice but the short movement limits it dramatically: it takes 18th level to match a 30' pounce and I'm lucky if my games last to double digits.

For me, if I plan to use flying kick, I pick up a Braid of a Hundred Masters as soon as possible.

Grand Lodge

Get Demonic Smiths Gloves instead...the wording does not specify attacks need to be made with the gloved hand.


Slyme wrote:
Get Demonic Smiths Gloves instead...the wording does not specify attacks need to be made with the gloved hand.

yeah, but it's fire damage and almost everything ends up with resistance/immunity to that.


graystone wrote:
[It's nice but the short movement limits it dramatically: it takes 18th level to match a 30' pounce and I'm lucky if my games last to double digits.

We seem to have very diffrent play experiences then. Soonest you can get it is 5th, and it is a 20ft move at 6th. 20ft is usually plenty in the kinds of combats I typically see.

Scarab Sages

I have the Braid, and it does help. But even so, it's rare beyond the first round of combat that you would need to move more than 20-30 feet. Forgetting about comparing it to Barbarian for a minute, let's face it, Flying Kick is very close to an automatic choice as soon as you qualify at 5th level. It's that huge of an improvement for the class. There will be some builds focused elsewhere, but there are also Barbarian builds that don't pounce. Flying Kick is very, very good compared to just about all the other options for the class. Losing 1d6 on 1 attack doesn't change that.


toastedamphibian wrote:
graystone wrote:
[It's nice but the short movement limits it dramatically: it takes 18th level to match a 30' pounce and I'm lucky if my games last to double digits.
We seem to have very diffrent play experiences then. Soonest you can get it is 5th, and it is a 20ft move at 6th. 20ft is usually plenty in the kinds of combats I typically see.

I've played enough with characters in med/heavy armor that require multiple rounds to get into combat that I understand the restrictions of a 40' charge let alone a 10-20' one. 10-20' can work in restricted environments, like a traditional dungeon crawl, but it becomes painfully slow in more open areas.

Ferious Thune wrote:
I have the Braid, and it does help. But even so, it's rare beyond the first round of combat that you would need to move more than 20-30 feet.

I don't disagree: my disagreement was "Better than pounce."

Ferious Thune wrote:
Flying Kick is very close to an automatic choice as soon as you qualify at 5th level.

Oh, I agree. It's a good option but falls behind 'pounce' in range. If you're making an 8th level Umonk, do you take it or Pummeling Charge? [or both] IMO, I find enough combat foes are outside the kick range that I'd want Pummeling Charge and I'd have to think if I want the kick or not.


Yes, in situations where you need to pounce, being able to pounce is better. In situations where you don't need to pounce, Flying Kick is better. The latter is much more common as far as I can tell (such as a foe rudely falling over in the middle of your flurry), thus, better.

Unless your constantly chasing down zebra for your dinner in an open savannah.


toastedamphibian wrote:
The latter is much more common as far as I can tell (such as a foe rudely falling over in the middle of your flurry), thus, better.

I'll just say we play in different types of games then as I don't find it that uncommon for their to be more than 10-20' between engagement and/or foes. You're treating 25' as an endless plain but I don't see that as an unreasonable distance in non-dungeon settings.

toastedamphibian wrote:
such as a foe rudely falling over in the middle of your flurry

With their being several monk weapons that have 20' range, it's not a big deal to toss a few at any enemy in flying kick range if your foe dies [and the Ascetic Style feat line means there isn't a big damage loss]. There is also wushu darts for a weightless ranged option is carry is an issue.

And again, I'm not saying flying kick isn't a good option, just that isn't the hands down better than pounce. I don't think there is anything you can say what will convince me that there isn't a substantial amount of instances where pounce is better, mainly do to the range difference.


graystone wrote:
You're treating 25' as an endless plain but I don't see that as an unreasonable distance in non-dungeon settings.

I agree, 25' isn't an unreasonable range. But unMonk can flying kick that at 9th level, that's before a Barbarian even gets pounce!

And that's without the braid, which I didn't even know about (I really hope they reprint it someday, being in some PFS module from years ago is about as pbscure as possible).


Derklord wrote:
graystone wrote:
You're treating 25' as an endless plain but I don't see that as an unreasonable distance in non-dungeon settings.
I agree, 25' isn't an unreasonable range. But unMonk can flying kick that at 9th level, that's before a Barbarian even gets pounce!

My 1st point is that at 8th, that monk [or brawler] can charge 100' with Pummeling Charge. My second is that I normally don't see games get past the low double digits. As such, it's late/end game for me before I see flying kick manage 'reasonable' distances.

There is also the shifter, that can make a 120' pounce at 4th...

PS: You can skew the usefulness of flying kick depending on amount of difficult terrain, combat distances, availability of charge lanes, ect. This of course also skews other factors/classes like cavaliers and other non-flying pet classes.

Grand Lodge

The main reason I prefer flying kick is the ability to turn while using it. You can literally flying kick around a 90 degree corner. Plus I'll always prefer dragon style to pummeling style.


Isn't the real selling point of Flying Kick that you can get it at level 5? Pummeling Charge (in addition to costing 2 feats and being incompatible with weapons and other fighting styles) isn't available until 8th (so 9th level without retraining).

Scarab Sages

Also that you can choose to flying kick in the middle of a full attack. If you drop your target and you still have attacks remaining, you can declare a flying kick and move up to your bonus speed and finish the full attack on a different target (while moving around obstacles, over difficult terrain, etc.) Pounce doesn’t give you that option. The abilities aren’t trying to do the same things. Both are great to have.


graystone wrote:

There IS a way to apply Deliquescent Gloves to flying kick. A catfolk monk FCB: +1/2 to the monk’s damage rolls with claw attacks and claw blades and if selected at 1st level also treats claw blades as a monk weapon and can use his style strikes with claw blade attacks.

SO a catfolk monk can 'flying kick' with an corrosive claw blade. ;)

Doesn't make it a kick.


Perfect Tommy wrote:
graystone wrote:

There IS a way to apply Deliquescent Gloves to flying kick. A catfolk monk FCB: +1/2 to the monk’s damage rolls with claw attacks and claw blades and if selected at 1st level also treats claw blades as a monk weapon and can use his style strikes with claw blade attacks.

SO a catfolk monk can 'flying kick' with an corrosive claw blade. ;)

Doesn't make it a kick.

Which is why e typed " 'flying kick' " and not "flying kick"...

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