Azata eidolon in Society play question 1


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Sczarni *****

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Blake's Tiger wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
How did you get your Eidolon to wear armor?
Your question sent me searching for a reference on eidolon and armor. Man, that was squeezed in there. Frees up a feat slot, though, so not a horrible loss.

Apologies. I was actually thinking you just knew of a feat or archetype or something that I didn't.

Sczarni *****

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
andreww wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
Right now, I hand it equipment when it's summoned. When I can afford the shield, I'll be using Planar Ally to keep it permanently equipped.
Planar Ally does not allow you to dictate what arrives, even if you use a specific creatures name.

Are you saying that, if you were my GM, you would have something else called, just to waste my gold? Because it's up to the GM what's called.

andreww wrote:
Also, this is very expensive as you still have to pay your ally and the time limits are likely to be awkward in many scenarios.

I don't understand this response. The duration would be permanent (see above). I'm not going to have someone cast Planar Ally every scenario.

*****

Planar Ally only allows you to summon a creature to perform one task. The cost is based on the length of service. The maximum is one day per caster level which costs 1000gp/HD.

As a cast spell it ends at the end of the scenario regardless (Season 8 Guide, Page 22). Only spells which heal or repair damage or remove conditions persist between scenarios so you would need to do it each time.

What you get with Planar Ally is totally subject to the GM's discretion.

Edit: I have denied people their preferred choice of Planar Ally in the past although I warn them in advance. This was mostly someone in All for Immortality who wanted to greater planar ally in a Planetar which would have basically stomped all over the scenario.

The Exchange ***** Venture-Lieutenant, Texas—Dallas & Ft. Worth aka Belafon

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Andrew, I think Nefreet is suggesting that you use planar ally to call your specific eidolon (requesting it by name). Gear it up and when the calling duration is complete, the gear goes with it (since it is called, not summoned). Then, since it now has gear on its home plane, it appears with that gear when you summon it. (And the gear goes back when the summon expires.) You would only need to repeat the process when you want to add a new piece of gear.

I think having something else come through the planar ally spell in this case would be a really low blow. “Hey buddy. Mr. Cleric McMerchant is going to call for you in about 10 minutes. Come on through when he does.” (Of course, in a home game giving another caster your eidolon’s True Name could cause complications.)

Sczarni *****

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Starfinder Charter Superscriber

^ all of that, indeed. Plus:

Earlier, I wrote:
It's an instantaneous spell effect, so it doesn't run afoul of PFS's stipulation that spell effects terminate at the end of the session.

*

I will note that the masterwork transformation spell is of instantaneous duration, yet the Guide's writers still felt the need to stipulate that you could carry it over from one adventure to the next.

Sczarni *****

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Not that it carries over, but that there can be only one.

*

Perhaps. Hard to say with the information at hand.

Scarab Sages *****

Again. The rule quoted by Nefreet has no bearing on non summoned objects.

Silver Crusade ***** Venture-Captain, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

Rereading the Eidolon description " The eidolon forms a link with the summoner, who forever after summons an aspect of the same creature." I tend to assume that Eidolons can take nothing with them.

Investing in a bag of holding or similar item (or a vanity that carries stuff for you) seems like a good call.

*****

Kevin Willis wrote:

Andrew, I think Nefreet is suggesting that you use planar ally to call your specific eidolon (requesting it by name). Gear it up and when the calling duration is complete, the gear goes with it (since it is called, not summoned). Then, since it now has gear on its home plane, it appears with that gear when you summon it. (And the gear goes back when the summon expires.) You would only need to repeat the process when you want to add a new piece of gear.

I think having something else come through the planar ally spell in this case would be a really low blow. “Hey buddy. Mr. Cleric McMerchant is going to call for you in about 10 minutes. Come on through when he does.” (Of course, in a home game giving another caster your eidolon’s True Name could cause complications.)

Except that still becomes awkward. You still have to pay your own eidolon and it only works once. Every time you want to give it something you need to call it with Planar Ally and pay it. Every time you summon it using your class ability it is still treated as a summoned creature.

Scarab Sages *****

Why is nobody actually responding to the issue of the language in the summoning rule. It doesn't say equipment doesn't return with a summoned creature. It says summoned objects don't return. Gear you hand your eidolon is not summoned the first time you give it to them.

Silver Crusade ***** Venture-Captain, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

Tallow wrote:
Why is nobody actually responding to the issue of the language in the summoning rule. It doesn't say equipment doesn't return with a summoned creature. It says summoned objects don't return. Gear you hand your eidolon is not summoned the first time you give it to them.

That text seems to apply to spells like instant summons which unhelpfully is also a conjuration (summoning) spell, even though calling might make more sense here.

So it might just apply to spells that have an object as target (instead of a creature like many summoning spells).

Unfortunately the description of the sub school is not stellar and could really benefit from a FAQ somewhere down the line.

Scarab Sages *****

Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
Tallow wrote:
Why is nobody actually responding to the issue of the language in the summoning rule. It doesn't say equipment doesn't return with a summoned creature. It says summoned objects don't return. Gear you hand your eidolon is not summoned the first time you give it to them.

That text seems to apply to spells like instant summons which unhelpfully is also a conjuration (summoning) spell, even though calling might make more sense here.

So it might just apply to spells that have an object as target (instead of a creature like many summoning spells).

Unfortunately the description of the sub school is not stellar and could really benefit from a FAQ somewhere down the line.

Agreed. I just don't see how it applies to Eidolons and their equipment at all. At least on the initial dismissal.

When you summon the Eidolon again, one of two things happen.

1) All that equipment stays on the other plane, since you are only summoning the same aspect of the Eidolon each time. And thus losing thousands of gold in equipment every time you summon them is problematic.

2) Or the equipment comes back with the Eidolon when summoned, but when it does is considered summoned objects, and thus it stays when the Eidolon is dismissed. So every other time you get to summon your Eidolon with equipment. This interpretation becomes problematic though, in that creatures you summon that come with their own equipment, technically, when killed or the spell ends, drop all their equipment on this plane. Summon for endless treasure anyone?

The Exchange ***** Venture-Lieutenant, Texas—Dallas & Ft. Worth aka Belafon

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Tallow wrote:
Why is nobody actually responding to the issue of the language in the summoning rule. It doesn't say equipment doesn't return with a summoned creature. It says summoned objects don't return. Gear you hand your eidolon is not summoned the first time you give it to them.

Not quite understanding your position from the context here.

My position is that conjuration (summoning) spells should not allow anything to permanently cross a planar barrier in either direction.

-If you summon a Bralani Azata to the material plane, and it hands you its scimitar, the scimitar goes back to Elysium when the summoning ends.
-If you summon a Bralani Azata to the material plane, and hand it a +3 longsword, the longsword stays on the material plane when the summoning ends.

So when you summon your eidolon and gear it up, all the gear stays on the material plane when the summons ends.

Scarab Sages *****

Kevin Willis wrote:
Tallow wrote:
Why is nobody actually responding to the issue of the language in the summoning rule. It doesn't say equipment doesn't return with a summoned creature. It says summoned objects don't return. Gear you hand your eidolon is not summoned the first time you give it to them.

Not quite understanding your position from the context here.

My position is that conjuration (summoning) spells should not allow anything to permanently cross a planar barrier in either direction.

-If you summon a Bralani Azata to the material plane, and it hands you its scimitar, the scimitar goes back to Elysium when the summoning ends.
-If you summon a Bralani Azata to the material plane, and hand it a +3 longsword, the longsword stays on the material plane when the summoning ends.

That really does seem like the logical and balanced, perhaps intent, interpretation of the rule. However, that's not what the rule actually says.

Summoning wrote:
When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this.

The rule doesn't discuss what happens to items that are summoned with a creature (unless all its items are also considered independent summoned objects) or are given to a creature that was summoned.

An item from the prime material plane, given to a summoned creature, is not actually a summoned object. The rule doesn't discuss what happens to it.

All I'm saying is, that this rule is not the rule by which to hang your hat on for why Eidolon equipment doesn't stay with the Eidolon once given to it regardless of whether its summoned or dismissed. Actually, its the lack of a rule saying equipment would return with a summoned creature, that I would hang my hat on.

I know this is semantics. But lets not use a rule to drive our narrative that actually does not fit the circumstances, and actually creates more issues with other rules than it helps when applied in this fashion.

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Online—PbP aka Hmm

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Until this is clarified, I have been thinking about spells, vanities and purchases to help with the naked eidolon problem.

This assumes that all equipment on the eidolon drops to the ground when the eidolon goes away. Here is a list that I think would help:

EARLY PURCHASES:

Mule — 8 gold, and handle animal is a summoner skill.
Wand of Unseen Servant — For 2 PP, get unseen servants to collect dropped gear and / or put it back on Eidolon. It’s even a summoner spell.
Wand of Serren’s Swift Girding — For 2 PP, have your eidolon instantly re-armored. You need to UMD it, or have a friendly mage or paladin help you with it.
Sleeves of Many Garments — 200 gold, quickly donned, and your eidolon no longer looks naked.

VANITIES from Pathfinder Field Guide (Full descriptions from Damanta’s Vanity Database):

Porter — To carry 100 pounds of Eidolon gear. 5 PP.
Squire — To help take care of your eight gold mule, and help your eidolon don his or her equipment. 4 PP.

As a summoner you will have the requisite charisma for multiple followers. Maybe these followers could both hold up a blanket (5 sp) to help curtain your eidolon from view as he or she changes into their wardrobe of the day.

★ --- ★ --- ★ --- ★

I have never wanted to play a summoner until now, but thinking about this issue of poor, naked eidolons has suddenly made making one oddly appealing! Nothing makes a character more interesting than a problem. Especially if the Eidolon complains, “You’re bringing me back on a public street? What? Have you no manners?” and then Gibbs-slaps the summoner.

Muahahahaha.

Okay, back to your rules discussion, everyone!

Hmm

**

Quote:
Just out of curiosity, has anyone here played a game where they had to re-equip their eidolon every time it was summoned

I played my summoned from level 1 to 12 with that understanding. Granted 98% of the time she started the scenario summoned and stayed that way the entire time.

Sczarni *****

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:
“You’re bringing me back on a public street? What? Have you no manners?”

Haha, my Wisdom 5 Summoner hasn't yet fully understood her Eidolon's purpose, and when they appear this sort of banter happens occasionally (easier to pull off in PbP).

**

To sum up what I've learned (Take 2)

As background, I'm home with the flu, watching Olympic short-track skating and curling (Go Switzerland!), and taking time to better understand eidolons, summoning, etc.

1) I now understand the summoning v calling distinction. I finally located the key term "manifestation" in the 1st paragraph of the CRB description of the Summoning school. I'm a little annoyed that this word isn't included in the more detailed description of Summoning several lines further down, nor does it appear to be part of the Unchained Summoner description of eidolons.

Aside from the first paragraph of the school description in the CRB, is the term/concept of summoning as "manifestation" found anywhere else in the Pathfinder rules? As near as I can tell, the key point is this one word, manifestation, which is part of a cut-and-paste from 3.5 and which is never developed or repeated anywhere else in the rules. I'm sorry but that's bad, bad, bad rules writing.

2) I now find myself in reluctant and unhappy agreement with Nefreet's basic position (apologies if my disagreement yesterday was too cranky, I blame the initial stages of the flu). Summoned creatures and their equipment never actually appear, only "manifestations" do. I agree that it doesn't make sense to hand "real" gear, weapons, etc. to a "manifestation," and then have the "real" items go with the "manifestation" when it is dismissed. "Real" things and "manifestations" are clearly very different in their basic nature.

3) As a result, I have no interest in having an eidolon that has to be equipped very time it arrives and which has to be cleaned up after every time it departs. I admire Hilary's attempt to make this work for her, but I find it to be really stupid.*

4) So, I'm going to retrain my eidolon into a form which doesn't depend on a weapon, probably an agathion in the shape of a large house cat.

Anyhows, thanks again for making it possible for me to get a better sense of how the rules work (even if I don't like what I've learned) and Go Switzerland!

Peter

*I've started a list of stupid Pathfinder things, and summoning as manifestation and the impact of this on eidolons is now on the list, along with only being able to use a scimitar as a weapon if you want a dex-to-damage magus.

**

Two other things I have learned:

1) The word manifestation appears no where in the unchained summoner section of Pathfinder Unchained.

2) Short track skating relay races don’t look all that safe to me.

Sczarni *****

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I work for the official timekeeper of the Olympics, coincidentally ^_^

**

If you're worried about keeping your Eidolon geared up without having to leave it hanging out, there may be another option for a bipedal one:
Give it a Hat of Disguise. As a Hat of Disguise can be used to appear as a member of a different subtype, instead of an Outsider (Eidolon) it can appear as an Outsider(Native) and take the form of Aasimar, and thus pass as a more-or-less normal member of society.

Plus, you're not having to waste resources on casting "summon Eidolon", just 1800 GP. I've used this to keep my Phantom around in physical form during operations where having a ghost mucking about could lead to trouble or weird issues. Just have to make sure to grab the hat when it goes ghost.

Sovereign Court **** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

The writing in the CRB leaves something to be desired.

I think the note about summoned objects is referring to objects summoned with Instant Summons, a CRB spell that summons objects. It should not be interpreted to mean that if you Summon Monster VI a hound archon that it leaves behind a greatsword when the spell ends. The whole issue could have been avoided by not making Instant Summons a summon spell; like they later did by making Apport Object a teleportation spell.

A summon spell seems to manifest a representation of a creature living somewhere in the planes; and a Summoner is described as summoning an aspect of his eidolon, not it's platonic original.

With that in mind, it does make sense to me that it departs with the things it arrived with, no more, no less.

Of course this would be a good place to write some new feats, spells, magic items, to work around that.

**

My objection is primarily an aesthetic one. The idea of summoning a naked eidolon and hurriedly equipping it with clothing, weapons, gear, etc. and then going around and collecting all of the above when it is dismissed seems ridiculous to me. The need to rearm an eidolon every time it is summoned also systematically disadvantages good summoners as their eidolons are more likely to be dependent on weapons.

Lau Bannenberg wrote:
Of course this would be a good place to write some new feats, spells, magic items, to work around that.

Agreed, but I'm not holding my breath. Paizo's focus all too often seems be producing new product rather than fixing mistakes of the past. While there is a certain economic logic to this approach, it does run the risk of turning off players who would like to see more quality and less quantity in terms of rules.

**

One last bit of flu-induced crankiness (also, Canada beat the Swiss in mixed doubles curling).

Lau Bannenberg wrote:

The writing in the CRB leaves something to be desired.

. . .

a Summoner is described as summoning an aspect of his eidolon, not it's platonic original.

Not just the CRB, Pathfinder Unchained only uses the word "aspect" once to describe an eidolon and the goes on to use "aspect" in a totally different way with the two special abilities of the summoner - Aspect and Greater Aspect.

*** Venture-Agent, Online aka bakamono

Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
Tallow wrote:
Why is nobody actually responding to the issue of the language in the summoning rule. It doesn't say equipment doesn't return with a summoned creature. It says summoned objects don't return. Gear you hand your eidolon is not summoned the first time you give it to them.

That text seems to apply to spells like instant summons which unhelpfully is also a conjuration (summoning) spell, even though calling might make more sense here.

So it might just apply to spells that have an object as target (instead of a creature like many summoning spells).

Unfortunately the description of the sub school is not stellar and could really benefit from a FAQ somewhere down the line.

I think so too, that the line was mostly intended for spells with objects as targets.

Regarding the summoner we also have the issue that the summoning ritual of the Eidolon is neither a normal summoning spell, nor a calling spell. It's something in between that does not have clear rules on all matters and more faqs would certainly be helpful.

Just to make things less complicated I usually let players do what they want with their Eidolon items. Exceptions only come in if the game context calls for it.
If the mission is to smuggle an item from A to B and the summoner wants to use his Eidolon to circumvent the issue completely the item might just have something like a permanent dimensional anchor on it.

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