Retraining, Hitpoints and Saving Throws


Rules Questions


When it came to retraining it used to be allowed to retrain a base class into a prestige class, so long as that base class level doesn't remove your prerequisite for the prestige class.

Now for the purpose of these questions, let's assume that under the previously outlaid conditions it's still possible to do that I wanna know how certain things would play out.

Let's say we have a:

1. Vivisectionist 1d6

2.-4. Wizard, Alertness from Familiar
3. Accomplished Sneak Attacker 2d6

5. Arcane Trickster

The idea would be to retrain Vivisectionist into Sleepless Detective, maintains the sneak attack prerequisite for Accomplished Sneak Attacker and thus the prerequisite for Arcane Trickster

Would Sleepless Detective become the first level? What I mean by this is how does it interact with

Would your hitpoints remain 8+4d6 or become 6+3d6+d8?

How about the Saving Throws? Would it revert to +2 Will at first level (from Wizard) rather than +2 Reflex and Fortitude from Alchemist or change to +2 Reflex +2 Will from having Sleepless Detective as a first level?

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

How are you achieving the prerequisite for Sleepless Detective (5 ranks in various skills) with only 4 non-SD levels?


Right...yeah, I missed that one.

Alright, so now you're instead an arcane trickster 2. You'd have 6 character levels.


1. Let's look at an analogous but legal situation: What happens when a fighter 1/wizard 1 retrains her first level to from fighter to barbarian? Retraining doesn't take away your "maximum HP on first level" situation, so you ought to gain a couple of hit points in the process.

2. Saving throw modifiers generally don't care about what character level you are or which order you took your levels. Apply the saving throw modifiers from the table as usual.

Also, what ryric said.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

With 2 AT levels, we're into this weird circle prereq thing where you're using AT to qualify for SD, and SD to qualify for AT. I suppose that might be RAW but I wouldn't allow it.

Blahpers really has the fundamental question nailed down though. Setting aside the weird PrC issues, I think you first level hp should change if you retrain your first level. His answer 2 I agree with, order does not matter for saves.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
FAQ wrote:

Retraining: Can I retrain out of my base classes and use my prestige class levels to meet the requirements for that prestige class?

No.
The retraining rules say, "If retraining a class level means you no longer qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other ability you have, you can't use that feat, prestige class, or ability until you meet the qualifications again." Therefore, if you retrain out of the base class and that causes you to no longer meet the requirements of the prestige class, you no longer have access to the class features from that prestige class, and therefore can't use that prestige class to meet the requirements of anything (including itself).

Update 10/16/13: In any case, you cannot use rule elements from a prestige class to meet the requirements of that prestige class.

Update 10/16/13: New ruling: You cannot use retraining to replace a base class level with a prestige class level.

You cant have 4 level in a base class, 1 level in a prestige class that allow you to get access to another prestige class, then use the second prestige class to get access t the first. Even with retraining, you need to have access to a prestige classes before you take any of them as a prestige class.

Retraining notwithstanding, the characters are created from the bottom up, and this always apply:
PRD wrote:
If a character does not meet the requirements for a prestige class before gaining any benefits of that level, that character cannot take that prestige class.


@ryric
Well, as I understand you can use prestige classes to qualify for a different prestige class. The requirement for arcane trickster is equally given by the classes that change places, so unless retraining works by removing the old class first and then adding the new class that shouldn't be an issue.
Though maybe that's how it works, and that was essentially my question.

@blahpers
First level gets a +2 bonus on saving throws that advance at 1/2. When that class level gets exchanged there should be some changes to that.
Alchemist gives fortitude and reflex, wizard only gives will and sleepless gives reflex and will at 1/2 progression.

@Diego Rossi
Hence the second level in arcane trickster (which is only needed for the additional skill rank), the main issue brought up initially is that I was using the skill point from Vivisectionist that was being retrained into Sleepless Detective to qualify for Sleepless Detective.


Trish Megistos wrote:

@blahpers

First level gets a +2 bonus on saving throws that advance at 1/2. When that class level gets exchanged there should be some changes to that.
Alchemist gives fortitude and reflex, wizard only gives will and sleepless gives reflex and will at 1/2 progression.

It isn't so complicated. Progression only determines how levels in a single class continue; character level doesn't matter at all. For example, a fighter 1/barbarian 1/gunslinger 1/ranger 1/monk 1 has a +10 modifier to her Fortitude save, even through they're all "Fortitude is a good save for me" classes, while a fighter 5 only gets +4.

If you change the class level to another class level, remove the benefits of the former and apply the latter. Swapping your only level of vivisectionist reduces your Fortitude and Reflex saves by 2; adding your first level of Sleepless Detective improves your Reflex and Will saves by 1. Simple as that.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Trish Megistos wrote:


@Diego Rossi
Hence the second level in arcane trickster (which is only needed for the additional skill rank), the main issue brought up initially is that I was using the skill point from Vivisectionist that was being retrained into Sleepless Detective to qualify for Sleepless Detective.

You remove the old level first. At that point you should be able to get the current prestige class without using the current prestige class levels, then you can you can use the current prestige classes levels to get the new prestige class.

Sleepless Detective is a prestige class.

Starting condition

level 1 vivisectionist 1d6 sneak attack
level 2-5 (4 total levels) wizard 4 ranks in the appropriate skills for AT
Feat Accomplished Sneak Attacker +1d6 sneak attack
level 6-7 Arcane trickster +1d6 sneak attack

Remove vivisectionist

1 empty empty
level
4 wizard levels, 4 ranks in the appropriate skills for AT
level 2 Arcane trickster levels. They stop functioning (no sneak attack)
Feat Accomplished Sneak Attacker stop functioning (no sneak attack)

Can't take Sleepless Detective as you can't have the needed 5 skill ranks in Craft (alchemy), Perception and Sense Motive. At most you have 4 ranks in those as the others levels are non functioning.

When you remove a prerequisite, everything that depend on that prerequisite stop functioning immediately.


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personally i think the requirements for prestige classes should just be scrapped, the base classes are better then like 99% of them so it really shouldn't be an issue other then just slapping a you must be of x level to take a level in this prestige class


Retraining wrote:
When you retrain a class level, you lose all the benefits of the highest level you have in that class. You immediately select a different class, add a level in that class, and gain all the benefits of that new class level.

@Diego Rossi

You don't lose your class and its features until you actually finish retraining at which point the change happens immediately. Which means at no point you'd lose sneak attack (since Sleepless Detective also provides it) and therefore you wouldn't lose accomplished sneak attacker and consequently you'd keep your arcane trickster levels...

Unless of course you guys are privy to additional information that contradicts the "immediate" changing of classes.

I suppose the easier variant would be to just pick a level in Sleepless, then retrain alchemist into Arcane Trickster.

@Blahpers
I see, I guess this text had me confused.

Base Save Bonuses wrote:
There are only two base saving throw progressions: good and poor. Good saves progress at a rate of +1/2 per level, while poor saves progress at +1/3 per level. Additionally, saving throw bonuses with a good saving throw progression start higher, effectively incorporating an additional +2 bonus. Under the core rules, this additional bonus stacks between classes, letting a character who’s a 1st-level barbarian and a 1st-level fighter have a +4 Fortitude save bonus while his Reflex and Will saves stagnate. However, this higher initial saving throw bonus is intended to act like the +3 bonus received on a class skill: you should get it only once for a particular type of saving throw, regardless of the number of classes in which you have levels. Under this variant, the +2 bonus at 1st level to a good save no longer stacks between classes, so a character’s strongest saves are sometimes decreased. However, the improvements to that character’s weakest saves usually make up the difference, and such characters are much less likely to leap ahead of (or fall dramatically behind) their single-class peers.

It seems to imply that every 1st level fast progression bonus should be applied once...


Have you thought about just going straight Eldritch Scoundrel Urogue 4/Arcane trickster 1+?
3)sneak attack (1d6) and Accomplished Sneak Attacker (+1d6)
4) 2nd level spells


Trish Megistos wrote:


@Blahpers
I see, I guess this text had me confused.

Base Save Bonuses wrote:

There are only two base saving throw progressions: good and poor. Good saves progress at a rate of +1/2 per level, while poor saves progress at +1/3 per level. Additionally, saving throw bonuses with a good saving throw progression start higher, effectively incorporating an additional +2 bonus. Under the core rules, this additional bonus stacks between classes, letting a character who’s a 1st-level barbarian and a 1st-level fighter have a +4 Fortitude save bonus while his Reflex and Will saves stagnate. However, this higher initial saving throw bonus is intended to act like the +3 bonus received on a class skill: you should get it only once for a particular type of saving throw, regardless of the number of classes in which you have levels. Under this variant, the +2 bonus at 1st level to a good save no longer stacks between classes, so a character’s strongest saves are sometimes decreased. However, the improvements to that character’s weakest saves usually make up the difference, and such characters are much less likely to leap ahead of (or fall dramatically behind) their single-class

...

Trish, that text doesn't seem to apply as it applies only to fractional bonus optional rule, which you haven't stated you are using. It goes on to explain how it applies to prestige classes. If you aren't using fractional bonuses it is irrelevant.


@Graystone
Indeed I have. Turns out I rather like my school granting extra slots and a familiar isn't too shabby either, or 9th level spells if we ever get to that.

@dragonhunter
We are. Is there a reason not to?
But yeah I should have mentioned that.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Trish Megistos wrote:
Retraining wrote:
When you retrain a class level, you lose all the benefits of the highest level you have in that class. You immediately select a different class, add a level in that class, and gain all the benefits of that new class level.

@Diego Rossi

You don't lose your class and its features until you actually finish retraining at which point the change happens immediately. Which means at no point you'd lose sneak attack (since Sleepless Detective also provides it) and therefore you wouldn't lose accomplished sneak attacker and consequently you'd keep your arcane trickster levels...

Unless of course you guys are privy to additional information that contradicts the "immediate" changing of classes.

I suppose the easier variant would be to just pick a level in Sleepless, then retrain alchemist into Arcane Trickster.

We read the rules.

Ultimate campaign wrote:
When you retrain a class level, you lose all the benefits of the highest level you have in that class. You immediately [b]select a different class[b], add a level in that class, and gain all the benefits of that new class level.

It is a two step process. You lose the class. Then you immediately select a new class.

But takin a new prestige class has a specific requisite:

PRD wrote:
If a character does not meet the requirements for a prestige class before gaining any benefits of that level, that character cannot take that prestige class.

After losing all the benefits of the class you have trained away, you lose the skill point and features of that class and everything that depend on those skill points and features. So the other prestige class whose requirement you no longer meet.

At that point you lose the benefits of the levels in the arcane trickster prestige class and don't qualify anymore for Sleepless Detective.

The last addendum to the FAQ was made exactly to avoid the need to explain every time how the process work.


@Diego Rossi
That seems unnecessarily harsh, but apparently rules as written.
In the end, it's a minor issue.

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