I wanted to increase bashing with my light shield, since I plan on going with shield and no other weapon. Yes, Cap style. It can be debated that I should go with a heavy shield, but that is not my question.
A heavy shield is a one-handed weapon and, as such, get 1.5 strength modifier added to damage when bashing with two hands.
However, would a light shield of bashing also get 1.5 strength modifier added to damage when bashing with two hands?
Bashing Description wrote:
A shield with this special ability is designed to perform a shield bash. A bashing shield deals damage as if it were a bashing weapon of two size categories larger (a Medium light shield thus deals 1d6 points of damage and a Medium heavy shield deals 1d8 points of damage). The shield acts as a +1 weapon when used to bash. Only light and heavy shields can have this ability.
Emphasis mine.
So, a bashing medium light shield deals damage as a huge light shield. A huge light shield is a light weapon for a huge creature and a two-handed weapon for a medium creature. So, it seems that damage would allow for the 1.5 strength modifier to be added to damage if wielded two-handed.
This is such a leap of logic I'm surprised you're not on a mental gymnastics team. While the logic of two-handing a shield is fine, if a bit weird, the bashing property treats the shield as larger for damage dice. It does not make anything truly larger, and a light shield is still light.
It's a Light weapon, so no. And even if it switches sizes that doesn't change that (Bastard Sword is unique in that regard). Thirdly, Bashing doesn't change the actual size, just the damage.
This is such a leap of logic I'm surprised you're not on a mental gymnastics team. While the logic of two-handing a shield is fine, if a bit weird, the bashing property treats the shield as larger for damage dice. It does not make anything truly larger, and a light shield is still light.
Bashing does not mention damage dice, it mentions "deals damage". I get that it might have been the only intended consequence, but it is not necessarily the only consequence.
A light weapon is not always a light weapon. A huge, light dagger is a two-handed weapon for a medium character and would benefit from 1.5 strength modifier to damage.
Every weapon has a size category. This designation indicates the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed.
A weapon’s size category isn’t the same as its size as an object. Instead, a weapon’s size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder. In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder.
Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can’t make optimum use of a weapon that isn’t properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn’t proficient with the weapon, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.
The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon. If a weapon’s designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can’t wield the weapon at all.
I agree that it does not make it larger, but it "deals damage as if it were ... larger".
It's a Light weapon, so no. And even if it switches sizes that doesn't change that (Bastard Sword is unique in that regard). Thirdly, Bashing doesn't change the actual size, just the damage.
Please see my reply to Dark Midian.
In addition to that, I get that it doesn't actually change the size of the weapon, but it does change the size of the weapon in terms of damage dealt. Determining if 1.5 strength modifier is applied to damage would seem to be done with the "damage" size.
I get that it might not have been the intention of the rules to allow this, but we can say that about many, many things.
Size increases and effective size increases: How does damage work if I have various effects that change my actual size, my effective size, and my damage dice?
As per the rules on size changes, size changes do not stack, so if you have multiple size changing effects (for instance an effect that increases your size by one step and another that increases your size by two steps), only the largest applies. The same is true of effective size increases (which includes “deal damage as if they were one size category larger than they actually are,” “your damage die type increases by one step,” and similar language). They don’t stack with each other, just take the biggest one. However, you can have one of each and they do work together (for example, enlarge person increasing your actual size to Large and a bashing shield increasing your shield’s effective size by two steps, for a total of 2d6 damage).
posted March 2015 | back to top
Actually increasing the size (enlarge) and increasing the effective size (bashing) are different. As you don't actually increase the size of the shield, you can't use it as if it had a larger size.
"Deals damage as if it were ... larger" don't mean "it become larger", and that is what matter when using a light shield. It is a light weapon and stay a light weapon.
If a small PC is using a medium light shield [or a medium PC using a large light shield], then sure, they can two hand with a -2 to hit. Without an actual size change, nope.
It's not an actual size change, it just deals more damage and tells you how to calculate the new damage amount by telling you it increases two effective sizes, but it doesn't actually change size.
It's also a light weapon, which you can't two-hand for extra damage.
Size increases and effective size increases: How does damage work if I have various effects that change my actual size, my effective size, and my damage dice?
As per the rules on size changes, size changes do not stack, so if you have multiple size changing effects (for instance an effect that increases your size by one step and another that increases your size by two steps), only the largest applies. The same is true of effective size increases (which includes “deal damage as if they were one size category larger than they actually are,” “your damage die type increases by one step,” and similar language). They don’t stack with each other, just take the biggest one. However, you can have one of each and they do work together (for example, enlarge person increasing your actual size to Large and a bashing shield increasing your shield’s effective size by two steps, for a total of 2d6 damage).
posted March 2015 | back to top
Actually increasing the size (enlarge) and increasing the effective size (bashing) are different. As you don't actually increase the size of the shield, you can't use it as if it had a larger size.
"Deals damage as if it were ... larger" don't mean "it become larger", and that is what matter when using a light shield. It is a light weapon and stay a light weapon.
The FAQ actually makes me feel more confident in my thinking, though I am willing to be wrong. I just have not seen any compelling evidence. Forgive me for being stubborn.
The FAQ mentions effective size increases, which applies to bashing, but it mentions the different language used. The first being like bashing, "deal damage as if they were one size category larger than they actually are." The second being "your damage die type increases by one step." I get that they are effective size changes and do not stack, but the difference in wording is what gets me. If bashing was only limited to "your damage die type increasing by one step", why wouldn't it just say so especially when there is other text that says specifically that? I get that it could have been a carry over, but there have been many chances to change the wording, especially once the second wording was created, which could have been a carry over as well.
Question: Is adding strength mod (or 1.5 str mod) part of how a weapon deals damage?
If so, wouldn't the effective size for how the weapon "deals damage" be taken into account.
I get that a light shield of bashing is a light weapon and should be treated as a light weapon EXCEPT when dealing damage. "deals damage as"
Rules exist and then many magical properties and such provide exceptions to those rules. The way I see all of the replies so far (and I could be wrong) is that the 'light weapon' aspect of the weapon supersedes effective size changes in all but the damage die increase, which I disagree with at the moment until someone can show me that it does.
Question: Is adding strength mod (or 1.5 str mod) part of how a weapon deals damage?
No, it is part of how it is wielded.
For your argument about the FAQ, the authors use different verbage to avoid endless repetitions, but the FAQ is very clear in saying that the variations of “deal damage as if they were one size category larger than they actually are,” “your damage die type increases by one step,” and similar language fall all in the same category, and that they don't change the size of the object.
Reading it in another way require some strange mental gymnastic.
Even if you could create a tenuous connection to what you want, it's obviously not the intent and your connection would be far too tenuous to overcome that. This is a battle that just can't be won.
Question: Is adding strength mod (or 1.5 str mod) part of how a weapon deals damage?
No, it is part of how it is wielded.
Let me state the question more clear. Is adding strength mod part of how a weapon deals damage?
Not the part that Bashing modifies.
Bashing does not state that it only modifies part of how a weapon deals damage. It states that it modifies how a weapon deals damage, as if two sizes categories larger.
The way I see a light shield of bashing successful attack:
1) Attack as a light weapon
2) Calculate weapon damage as a two-handed weapon (two size categories larger)
While calculating weapon damage, the strength modifier is added. At that time, if the weapon is two-handed and considered one-handed or larger, instead add 1.5 strength modifier.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
A medium creature wielding a light shield with the bashing special ability is still wielding a light weapon, thus no 1.5 x strength.
If it was a large sized light shield, then they could wield it two-handed and get the benefit of 1.5 x strength as well as increased damage die, but at a penalty to hit for being an oversisized weapon.
If the bashing special ability affected the ability to use a medium sized light shield as a one-handed or two-handed weapon to gain the extra strength benefit, then by that logic it would make it unwieldable because it is now TWO sizes bigger and so cannot be wielded by a medium creature anymore.
It increases the effective size, increasing the damage dice. It doesn't change how it's wielded. How you wield the weapon affects how much strength damage you add.
1) yes it's a light weapon.
2) NO, HECK NO, NO WAY, NADA, NEIN, NYET, OYA, NEE, IIE, NA, NONO, YEEHEE, ect. [I can come up with a few dozen other ways/languages to say no in].
There is NO way you can turn bashing into 2 handed use. bashing involves the dice alone [1d4, 2d6, 1d8, ect]. The stat damage is NOT in that calculation. If it modified size of weapon it would ALSO make it not a light weapon.
"Using two hands to wield a light weapon gives no advantage on damage"
Styx keep in mind that your interpretation would render heavy shields unusable with the bashing enchantment as they would now deal damage as a weapon size that can't be used at all.
A bashing shield deals damage as if it were a bashing weapon of two size categories larger
Hm. Do they mean 'damage dice' or 'all damage and damage bonuses for the purposes of effects that relate to damage'? Seems ambiguous.
But wait; the quote continues:
Quote:
A bashing shield deals damage as if it were a bashing weapon of two size categories larger (a Medium light shield thus deals 1d6 points of damage and a Medium heavy shield deals 1d8 points of damage).
