I can't hit them !!! A DM in distress.


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion

101 to 134 of 134 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>
Lantern Lodge

Ryan Freire wrote:
Good thing he gives them all +4 to ac

Cool! Like I said it’s an interesting premise but in the grand scheme of things +4 AC is minuscule compared to the other buffs you could be giving. But if that’s what the PC built towards, and it’s a pretty suboptimal build in my opinion (I prefer damage output over AC), then let it happen.


kaisc006 wrote:
Ryan Freire wrote:
Good thing he gives them all +4 to ac
Cool! Like I said it’s an interesting premise but in the grand scheme of things +4 AC is minuscule compared to the other buffs you could be giving. But if that’s what the PC built towards, and it’s a pretty suboptimal build in my opinion (I prefer damage output over AC), then let it happen.

+4 ac is functionally 20% off the average BAB of a CR 10 monster.

This is an adventure path, its not a challenge to people who can skew the bell curve for their level


Cevah wrote:
Drs. R. H. S. P. Stuart-Mill wrote:

All the info about the little problem called "the halfling"

Halfling
Str 5
Dex 24
Con 10
Int 12
Wis 18
Cha 16
Belt of Dexterity (+4)
Headband of Wisdom (+2)
...

Breaking this down...

I see +2 Dex stat from level (assumed)
+2 Dex, +2 Cha, -2 Str from race
+4 Dex, +2 Wis from magic

That means the original stat array (and points) was:
Str 7 --> -4
Dex 16 --> 10
Con 10 --> 0
Int 12 --> 2
Wis 16 --> 10
Cha 14 --> 5
For a total of 23 points

Given you stated the character only had 15 points, he is 8 points over budget.

So either I overlooked something, or his stats are too high.

/cevah

1:1 ratio


Souls At War wrote:
Cevah wrote:
Drs. R. H. S. P. Stuart-Mill wrote:

All the info about the little problem called "the halfling"

Halfling
Str 5
Dex 24
Con 10
Int 12
Wis 18
Cha 16
Belt of Dexterity (+4)
Headband of Wisdom (+2)
...

Breaking this down...

I see +2 Dex stat from level (assumed)
+2 Dex, +2 Cha, -2 Str from race
+4 Dex, +2 Wis from magic

That means the original stat array (and points) was:
Str 7 --> -4
Dex 16 --> 10
Con 10 --> 0
Int 12 --> 2
Wis 16 --> 10
Cha 14 --> 5
For a total of 23 points

Given you stated the character only had 15 points, he is 8 points over budget.

So either I overlooked something, or his stats are too high.

/cevah

1:1 ratio

PRD

Table: Ability Score Costs:
Score .. Points
7 .. –4
8 .. –2
9 .. –1
10 .. 0
11 .. 1
12 .. 2
13 .. 3
14 .. 5
15 .. 7
16 .. 10
17 .. 13
18 .. 17

@Souls At War:
Your 1:1 theory does seem to fit, but is not the standard point buy. If they did use 1:1, then the are overpowered.

@Drs. R. H. S. P. Stuart-Mill:
Also, I note that the party is 5 people, not 4. That makes the party overpowered for the expected encounters.
You say they are one level less than expected, but the extra person more that makes up for that.

/cevah


ExiledMimic wrote:

My biggest pet peeve when running a game is someone who dumps a stat to hell and gone. It's munchkin and I refuse to do it myself because it's cheap. A racial reducing a stat is one thing, but personally dumping it into dirt? Nah.

However he doesn't do enough damage that I think he's worth his salt to begin with. You could flat ignore him and toss in a little DR/Slashing and he'd basically be about as useful as an armored cooking pot. Or, like I said before, sunder the weapon and watch him try to punch something with that 5 Str.

Honestly this little guy is a non-issue. I assumed he was damaging the world and unless he's your only source of damage, he's mild. Since you're on an AP train there's not a lot you could do besides toss some foil at them who has their number. Depending on where you are...

** spoiler omitted **

I've also retooled some monsters in certain APs where they work together a lot to get teamwork feats. Watching a couple of monsters with Outflank get to work is interesting. Throwing hoplight soldiers who specialize in teamwork feats to fight in pairs is also a good tactic because it creates a need for tactics more than stats.

Either way you have the tools even in the AP. I think maybe you're afraid of seeming like you're picking on him, but you're not. Trying to kill him is...

Thanks everybody for all the comments on this issue.

Next game night is Sunday so there are some changes on their way. There is a different light shining on our gameplay.

We always let the dice decide for our stats (4d6 and eliminating the worst one, it’s very very old school I know)

next fight:
The next encounter is against Heqet and it would surprise me if the Halfling still lives at the end of the night. Blasphemy is going to hit him anyway and that lives a immobile Halfling on the battleground

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Modules, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps Subscriber

This sounds like a case of good old fashioned swallow whole. Halflings are tasty ;)


Other fun ways to scare a group of 9-10th level PCs:

1. Wizard Nuke:
CR-14 (a 15th level wizard) with spell perfection: Magic Missile, quicken spell, Maximized Spell, echoing spell, and a lesser metamagic rod of maximize.

What it can do? A lot.

For this Monk foe:
Prepared Spell(s):
Quickened Echoing Magic Missile. Spell Level 4.

Maximized Echoing Magic Missile. Spell Level 4.

Maximized
Surprise Round:
Swift action - Quickened Echoing Magic Missile w/Maximize Rod.

The Monk takes 25 damage.

Standard action - Maximized Echoing Magic Missile.

The Monk takes 25 damage.

Round 2? Do it again. Total damage to the Monk? 100 damage. Without healing the Monk takes a dirt nap.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

My advice is to use the 20pt-buy system that Cevah quoted. If you do 4d6, then some players are going to end up with characters quite overpowered compared to the lousiest roller of the group, or if you're a softy and give 'em rerolls, then basically everybody ends up with the equivalent of 30-35pt-buy and they will utterly crush by-the-book APs.

Aside from that, you have to keep an eye on those classes like Swashbuckler and style-monks and so on who are fueled by swift-actions. You let 'em get away with triple-dipping their swifts or doing infinite parry/riposte or ki attacks (i.e., not counting their panache and ki points), and they'll blow everything away.


Drs. R. H. S. P. Stuart-Mill wrote:

Thanks everybody for all the comments on this issue.

Next game night is Sunday so there are some changes on their way. There is a different light shining on our gameplay.

We always let the dice decide for our stats (4d6 and eliminating the worst one, it’s very very old school I know)

** spoiler omitted **

Wait, what type of play? some type of online or face to face?


Souls At War wrote:
Drs. R. H. S. P. Stuart-Mill wrote:

Thanks everybody for all the comments on this issue.

Next game night is Sunday so there are some changes on their way. There is a different light shining on our gameplay.

We always let the dice decide for our stats (4d6 and eliminating the worst one, it’s very very old school I know)

** spoiler omitted **

Wait, what type of play? some type of online or face to face?

Our group was formed, long ago in the year 1999.

Most players are still the same as in the beginning.

It is always face to face!

We play every Sunday evening.


My group does 4d6 drop lowest and everyone gets that one set. That way there's no gap between starting stats. It's like point buy but the "points" are rolled to keep from people taking 5 in a stat.

Often times I'll just add a single extra guy to the board and it'll even out if they are steam rolling.


There's also the imposition of other rules, like "you can't drop below 8 in a stat, and no more than 1 stat can be below 10". ^^ Lotsa ways to solve min-maxing issues.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Heh. Not a min-max issue. He just gets eaten last.

Based on what you've provided, the only real thing he brings to the table is blundering defense. +4 AC to the allies who will do the real fighting. Just roll with it and smack down the other characters until they decide to ditch the waste of space and bring someone who can actually pull his own weight (literally given his strength score).

By the time you get down to smacking on him, remember: feint, invisibility, improved invisibility, waves of exhaustion (for him, that's no save helplessness--welcome to 0 strength), blasphemy, and then figure out the various ways to stack +18 to hit from your CR10 monsters so that 40 AC is not a big deal. Off the top of my head, good hope is +2 morale, bardsong is +2 to +3, haste is +1, blessings of fervor is +2, prayer is +1, and then you can charge for +2, higher ground for +1, knock prone for +4, and use a tactics ability to grant either outflank or volley fire for another +2 or +4, so you can get up to +13 to hit for a CR 4 4th level bard with a couple scrolls, a low CAR cavalier, and a little tactical positioning. If you're u use all of it yet u can get up to +19 in bonuses. If you need more, drop the rage spell or bring a skald along.


Drs. R. H. S. P. Stuart-Mill wrote:
Souls At War wrote:
Drs. R. H. S. P. Stuart-Mill wrote:

Thanks everybody for all the comments on this issue.

Next game night is Sunday so there are some changes on their way. There is a different light shining on our gameplay.

We always let the dice decide for our stats (4d6 and eliminating the worst one, it’s very very old school I know)

** spoiler omitted **

Wait, what type of play? some type of online or face to face?

Our group was formed, long ago in the year 1999.

Most players are still the same as in the beginning.

It is always face to face!

We play every Sunday evening.

You might want to check some of there dices. Also try to know if any changes in their lives could affect how they act/play.


Drs. R. H. S. P. Stuart-Mill wrote:
We always let the dice decide for our stats (4d6 and eliminating the worst one, it’s very very old school I know)

A while back, I calculated that point buy. Average point buy for 4d6 drop one is 20.7. This ignores the 36 entries that generate a stat < 7. Average number for the stat is 12.44 (for valid point buy) or 12.24 for all 1296 possibilities.

Given the expected 15 point buy for the AP, your characters are overpowered stat wise. That bumps up their effective CR another 1 or 2. Combined with the extra player, no wonder they are steamrolling everything. They are 2-3 CR higher than what the ap expects, and being only one level down isn't enough to compensate.

/cevah


If you can get him helpless and prone, that drops his dex bonus from +7 to -5, prone for -2, and loss of +2 dodge. That is a net change in AC of -16. AC goes from 24 to 8. And he probably looses whatever was buffing his AC up to 40 as well. [Even if not, that drops from 40 to 24.]

Drs. R. H. S. P. Stuart-Mill wrote:

Ac 24 (dex + 7, +1 size, +2 dodge, +4)

Fighting Defensively : -2 on Attack rolls
+10 dodge bonus to AC vs. melee
+6 dodge bonus to AC vs. ranged
Total Defense : +9 dodge bonus to AC

I am not sure what these other dodge bonuses are.

Fighting Defensively gets you –4 penalty on attacks and +2 to AC.
If he has 3+ ranks of acrobatics, Fighting Defensively gets +3 AC rather than +2.
Total Defense gets you no attacks, not even AoOs, and +4 AC.
If he has 3+ ranks of acrobatics, Total Defense gets +6 AC rather than +4.

Can anyone explain where the halfling's higher number come from?

/cevah

Grand Lodge

Not really. I know ChessPwn noted earlier that his AC seemed too high as well.

Silver Crusade

Crane Style reduces the attack penalty for fighting defensively to -2, and increases the dodge bonus by 1.
Cautious Fighter (a halfling-only combat feat) increases the dodge bonus when fighting defensively or taking total defence by a further +2.

So a halfling using crane style, cautious fighter, and fighting defensively takes -2 to hit for +6 dodge bonus (assuming 3 ranks in acrobatics). If he also has Crane Wing, that's an additional +4 dodge bonus vs melee (which goes away until the start of his next turn if an attacker misses him by 4 or less).

This is the halfling martial's wheelhouse. They won't put out the damage of a human with a big honkin' greatsword, but they're very hard to hit. Add in Stalwart and Improved Stalwart for extra invulnerability.

Silver Crusade

I'm partial to the 4e point buy, where you buy up from 10 10 10 10 10 8. You can have one lower stat, but no aggressive dumping.


Don't forget about 'aid another'. If the weaker mooks can't hit a high AC they can make a standard attack to hit AC 10 and give an ally a +2 to hit.

It's something we players do a lot when something is out of our weight class... but it's certainly acceptable for enemies to do it too.


It's a decent point about aid another. With flank even a few nooks that can't hit can jump a friend's attack by a decent amount.


Jurassic Pratt wrote:
Not really. I know ChessPwn noted earlier that his AC seemed too high as well.

as supervillan pointed out, the numbers were right for each option. Fighting defensively giving a +10. Just that with his base of 24 the +10 only reaches 34, so I don't know why the complaint is 40+. Now the total defense was listed so I'm not sure if they've been combining those somehow.

Silver Crusade

I see another +3 from dodging panache (against 1 attack per round, and costs an immediate action), and another +1 sacred/profane bonus to AC if he activates Judgement (a swift to start, lasts a whole combat, but only 1/day). That gets him to 38AC, but with up to 7 of that not applying to all attacks in a round.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
DrDeth wrote:
And that party has no "squishies" at all, no guy in robes with a pointy hat with "Wizzard" on it in sequins.

Maybe the character could draw aggro by doing exactly that?


Perspective, again, OP said what module the pc is in. The most accurate monsters in that module, the ones absolutely most likely to hit need 14's to land a swing, 17's if he uses dodging panache, and 18's if the char pulls out all the stops.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Ryan Freire wrote:
kaisc006 wrote:
DrDeth wrote:
kaisc006 wrote:
Either way monsters will ignore him.
Why? Does he have a sign "Hard to hit, but doesnt do any damage"?
No when the other characters actually do something from casting an offensive spell to hitting for good damage they will have signs that say “hit me because I can kill you”
Good thing he gives them all +4 to ac

For perspective, a 10th level Sensei gives everyone within 30' +4 to AC for an hour and a half at the cost of a single ki point... and can Inspire Courage/Competence/Greatness, give out an extra 20' movement, allow everyone TrueStrike, etc.. All of this while keeping his Crane Style.


The highest BAB in the module under discussion is +20, his +4 to AC is a 20% reduction in hit chance.

Merits of his build aside, the best hitting critters miss like 70% of the time and simply standing next to him gives a 20% increased chance of not getting hit by the most accurate monsters in the module.

Its an adventure path, you don't have to be a god wizard to be optimized enough to become a problem character in it.


Ryan Freire wrote:

The highest BAB in the module under discussion is +20, his +4 to AC is a 20% reduction in hit chance.

Merits of his build aside, the best hitting critters miss like 70% of the time and simply standing next to him gives a 20% increased chance of not getting hit by the most accurate monsters in the module.

Its an adventure path, you don't have to be a god wizard to be optimized enough to become a problem character in it.

"BBEG has discovered there is a Halfling destroying his chances at being... evil...er. His henchmen have all been forcefully trained in Dedicated Adversary (Halfling) and have equipped the spellcasters with 'waves of fatigue' and 'irresistible dance' should hitting fail initially.

This has been a broadcast from the EMN (Evil Minion Network). Enjoy your night, and bathe in the blood of your enemies."


waves of fatigue makes sense but irresistable dance is an 8th level spell so most adventure paths don't include BBEG minion spellcasters 7 levels higher than the party.


Main issue is how much does OP want to hit this player and the rest of the group.

If it's a few hits to remind them of the danger well this part of the AP actually can have some threats if they just charge in every where.

Losing a more consistent challenge however does require more work and overhauling


4 people marked this as a favorite.

update : the group entered the next fight. One little spell called Blasphemy and they where allready adressing me as "MR. DM can I please live to tell the day". :)


"As your fame grows, you realize your potential foes may be paying attention to what they've heard of you, and planning countermeasures... to stay ahead of them, it may help to consult sages in [Plot Town of Choice] about the best way to handle your growing power."


Drs. R. H. S. P. Stuart-Mill wrote:
update : the group entered the next fight. One little spell called Blasphemy and they where allready adressing me as "MR. DM can I please live to tell the day". :)

I always forget those have a strength hit component that's really not hard to reach.


Drs. R. H. S. P. Stuart-Mill wrote:
update : the group entered the next fight. One little spell called Blasphemy and they where allready adressing me as "MR. DM can I please live to tell the day". :)

Heh

Wait till you get to play with things like Symbols of Insanity and AoEing permanent blind effects.

101 to 134 of 134 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder RPG / General Discussion / I can't hit them !!! A DM in distress. All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.