I don’t have any special knowledge of Paizo’s situation, but I’m pretty sure those decisions are driven more by lowered consumer demand than the heightened time demands of other projects. (To think otherwise would be to think that Paizo is just leaving money on the table when they could (if needed) just hire more people. That seems unlikely to me.)
EDIT: Didn’t see Dustin’s post when I wrote this, but that’s another plausible explanation.
The purpose of producing a new game is to grow your business. If you put out a new product by pulling back on your main product line you are working at cross purposes.
As pointed out above, the pullback on releases for Pathfinder is most likely due to a decrease in demand and independent of Starrfinder. I’d also add that Starfinder is potentially a result of a slip in demand of the Pathfinder product line.
I stepped away from RPGs right when 5e was getting going and I think there is about half the numbers playing pfs now as when I left. 5e has definitely taken a toll.
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
It’s been brought up that the pullback on certain Pathfinder release schedules was due to the people involved being overworked, not necessarily due to Starfinder’s emergence. So it was scaled down to give the creators more room to breath and focus on the projects they are working on.
It’s been brought up that the pullback on certain Pathfinder release schedules was due to the people involved being overworked, not necessarily due to Starfinder’s emergence. So it was scaled down to give the creators more room to breath and focus on the projects they are working on.
Interesting. I didn’t know that and it shoots my theory down. I can still say anecdotally at least that there are far fewer players playing PFS than right before 5e launched.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
"Just hire more people" isn't always as easy as it sounds and might be the right answer anyway.
-Skeld
QFT.
It should be "Just hire more of the RIGHT people", which is not simple at all.
Also, I think Starfinder may be "preying" on the same limited amount of people who play Pathfinder as well. It's what originally happened between Warhammer Fantasy Battle and Rogue Trader (well not initially, the cannibalization effect really happened when WHFB neared the end of its 5th edition and WH40k launched 3rd ed I believe).
|
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
It’s been brought up that the pullback on certain Pathfinder release schedules was due to the people involved being overworked, not necessarily due to Starfinder’s emergence. So it was scaled down to give the creators more room to breath and focus on the projects they are working on.
I believe Rysky is on to something there, I had noticed an improvment in both Campaign and Companion lines right after the slower release schedule began. An over worked team producing good work, will produce great work when given reasonable resources.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Is it me, or is Starfinder causing the slump of new Pathfinder material? We used to have a PF Campaign and Player Companion product almost every month, but lately I have seen it every other month (and it looks that way for the future according to the schedule). Not that I have anything against Starfinder, but I thought Paizo was a growing industry yet it seems Starfinder is replacing some PF releases instead of side by side releases?
I've heard from someone who always goes to Paizo-cons and stays really current on the companies business that they are basically starting to phase out Pathfinder. It's too bloated, sales are slipping and everyone know it. So they're going to spent a lot more time and resources on Starfinder for a few years, then work on a super hero based game (possible hero finder), then after that they'll work on Pathfinder 2. But that might be many years away. Sorry if some of this isn't fully accurate, it's just what I heard.
| 9 people marked this as a favorite. |
Sorry if some of this isn't fully accurate, it's just what I heard.
Why don't you just post what you know from personal conversations with Paizo staff, and leave out the unsupported rumors?
Spreading gossip and other people's imaginings isn't very helpful to your own credibility and it certainly doesn't help any of us understand what's going on.
They can hire me I'll help them out. Just email me here Paizo and I'll send you my resume! or if you want to skip the resume just send me the job offer.
Wooden stakes, silver bullets, holy symbols, Large mauls these are a few of my .... tools.
I think you'll need a different set of tools.
Wooden stakes, silver bullets, holy symbols, Large mauls these are a few of my .... tools.I think you'll need a different set of tools.
Fair point. although I will say you'd be surprised what you can accomplish with a big enough hammer.
also you super confused me quoting me from another thread.
Yeah, you could go for the Customer Service opening. I hear that SaraMarie is lovely to work for, according to someone who currently works for her.
(sorry about the confusion. I had just read your comment in that other thread, and it seemed just too funny not to bring over).
Yeah, you could go for the Customer Service opening. I hear that SaraMarie is lovely to work for, according to someone who currently works for her.
That is not a terrible idea. Then the hammer could still get some use...
Actually After I finish this book i'm writing and try and get it published I might seriously consider it. depending how the book goes.
Yeah that was a well chosen post to move over *applause*
|
| 11 people marked this as a favorite. |
Is it me, or is Starfinder causing the slump of new Pathfinder material? We used to have a PF Campaign and Player Companion product almost every month, but lately I have seen it every other month (and it looks that way for the future according to the schedule). Not that I have anything against Starfinder, but I thought Paizo was a growing industry yet it seems Starfinder is replacing some PF releases instead of side by side releases?I've heard from someone who always goes to Paizo-cons and stays really current on the companies business that they are basically starting to phase out Pathfinder. It's too bloated, sales are slipping and everyone know it. So they're going to spent a lot more time and resources on Starfinder for a few years, then work on a super hero based game (possible hero finder), then after that they'll work on Pathfinder 2. But that might be many years away. Sorry if some of this isn't fully accurate, it's just what I heard.
Someone is blowing smoke up your ass.
-Skeld
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm hoping them being overwhelmed/etc is the true reason why Shifter was such a hot mess, rather than their weird half-excuse for it.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Given the Changes to the Shifter thread's need to exist, and the fact that Jason flat out said there was no play test because they were working on Starfinder, this more or less seems to be confirmed.
They have also said this will not be an issue going forward, whether this means no more classes is not up to me.
We have also heard about several products in the slate for "years to come" and there are plenty of threads here discussing what products PFRPG players would want and be willing to spend their money on.
Thus, I feel the need to reiterate my desires to see an Advanced Multiclassing Guide with more in-depth rules on VMC, reprints and updates of the Companion Line alternate class features, archetypes which juxtapose various class features from different classes, and a couple new classes to fill up design niches that are still missing.
Then I want a new "Ultimate" book which covers dungeon crawls, with rules for time management, traps, encounters, hazards, themes, and a full class version of the Archaeologist to get my Indiana Jones on. Ultimate Exploration was the title I had in mind.
Advanced NPC Codex could include a whole slew of NPCs built from the base classes released after the CRB.
You get the idea, there's still a few products 'missing' from the catalog of Pathfinder that makes me feel like it's still an 'incomplete edition.'
Once we get to the compendium phase after this, I would expect another couple years of 'Codex' books, like Spell Codex, Feat Codex, Rules Codex, etc.
There's plenty of things they could do that will be worth your money, and thankfully they are active enough on the forums to listen to their customers, since we've been getting some stellar products in the years prior to Starfinder being a focus of the company.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A. 5th edition D&D is doing very well. One of Pathfinder's biggest niches was "Hey, at least we're better than 4e, and we're still roughly like that old system you liked!" Now that WotC is actually putting up good competition with a recognized brand, it's natural that PF sales will slip.
B. Pathfinder is bloated. They're scaling back the amount of books because they finally realized that putting out books at breakneck speed is not the best way to go about things when everyone's already overworked AND they have a whole new system to worry about.
C. On top of B, Paizo has recently lost a number of high-level employees in the past year or so. They literally only have one forum moderator and seem unwilling or unable to fill the positions that are left.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Paizo has been hiring people, but the people who have left have so far had a higher profile than the people coming in.
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
then work on a super hero based game (possible hero finder)
I thought they already have a superhero game. Its called Pathfinder. By the time you hit level 20 you can leap over tall buildings in a single bound, fly, have super strength, run at blinding speeds, scale shear cliffs, run over the most icy surface with no problem, turn invisible, teleport, and that's just the core book.
|
Is it me, or is Starfinder causing the slump of new Pathfinder material? We used to have a PF Campaign and Player Companion product almost every month, but lately I have seen it every other month (and it looks that way for the future according to the schedule). Not that I have anything against Starfinder, but I thought Paizo was a growing industry yet it seems Starfinder is replacing some PF releases instead of side by side releases?I've heard from someone who always goes to Paizo-cons and stays really current on the companies business that they are basically starting to phase out Pathfinder. It's too bloated, sales are slipping and everyone know it. So they're going to spent a lot more time and resources on Starfinder for a few years, then work on a super hero based game (possible hero finder), then after that they'll work on Pathfinder 2. But that might be many years away. Sorry if some of this isn't fully accurate, it's just what I heard.
Can't tell if you serious or kidding ....
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
A. 5th edition D&D is doing very well. One of Pathfinder's biggest niches was "Hey, at least we're better than 4e, and we're still roughly like that old system you liked!" Now that WotC is actually putting up good competition with a recognized brand, it's natural that PF sales will slip.
B. Pathfinder is bloated. They're scaling back the amount of books because they finally realized that putting out books at breakneck speed is not the best way to go about things when everyone's already overworked AND they have a whole new system to worry about.
C. On top of B, Paizo has recently lost a number of high-level employees in the past year or so. They literally only have one forum moderator and seem unwilling or unable to fill the positions that are left.
*eyeroll*
-Skeld
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I wonder if WOTC has freelance insurgents to sow doubt in PFRPG?
I actually never did my homework to know where SKR ended up, but rumor has it he's not been to amicable towards PFRPG with respect to his opinion.
I started with paizo with the launch of the betta testing pathfinder and feel out a few years later.
Just now getting back into it. So i honestly have no idea what there business is like today.
I would guess they would have to slow a little on pathfinder eventually. You end up with a glut of products(which seems to be what happened, I am over whelmed with all the new material) and than eventually demand drys up. Than you got to release a new edition. Which I think no one wants pathfinder 2nd edition and if they did that it could end the line.
So maybe doing starfinder is a way for them to hopefully get new blood in and increase demand for people who have fallenoff the wagon over the last few years.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
While I can understand cutting the number of character option books because of "bloat". I don't see how cutting down on campaign setting books is because of "bloat".
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
In all honesty, I haven't noticed, since there were 12 player companions released in 2017 (and I think one in 2018?) so those are continuing apace, and the APs are coming out every month too.
As for a decrease in campaign setting and hardback books, I figure that was mostly a function of "when you've been releasing those for nine years, most of the low-hanging fruit has been picked." I mean, you're not going to want to put out a book about a topic so narrow only a few dozen people care about it, and you can't do a book about something you already did.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
In all honesty, I haven't noticed, since there were 12 player companions released in 2017 (and I think one in 2018?) so those are continuing apace, and the APs are coming out every month too.
As for a decrease in campaign setting and hardback books, I figure that was mostly a function of "when you've been releasing those for nine years, most of the low-hanging fruit has been picked." I mean, you're not going to want to put out a book about a topic so narrow only a few dozen people care about it, and you can't do a book about something you already did.
Actually, they are dipping into a lot of the older stuff from the grey area in between editions and reprinting them for the Core Line books and companion lines.
We got a lot of cool weapons and items in Adventurer's Armory 2 that was technically old, but not part of PFRPG proper. The same is true of Ultimate Wilderness.
In fact, I think compiling the more crunchy aspects of the companion lines and supplementing them with some new stuff is more or less going to be the standard going forward in Core Line releases. They are also slowly rescinding the divorce between the setting line and core line, seemingly so that more rules content can be dictated by the same team hopefully for a better and more streamlined process with respect to rulings, errata, and FAQs.
While some consumers may be upset that they are paying for some reprinted content, the insurance that comes with the backbone of being able to ask the same Dev teams questions about how things work is most definitely the right decision and a step in the right direction.
Given the Changes to the Shifter thread's need to exist, and the fact that Jason flat out said there was no play test because they were working on Starfinder, this more or less seems to be confirmed.
They have also said this will not be an issue going forward, whether this means no more classes is not up to me.
We have also heard about several products in the slate for "years to come" and there are plenty of threads here discussing what products PFRPG players would want and be willing to spend their money on.
Thus, I feel the need to reiterate my desires to see an Advanced Multiclassing Guide with more in-depth rules on VMC, reprints and updates of the Companion Line alternate class features, archetypes which juxtapose various class features from different classes, and a couple new classes to fill up design niches that are still missing.
Then I want a new "Ultimate" book which covers dungeon crawls, with rules for time management, traps, encounters, hazards, themes, and a full class version of the Archaeologist to get my Indiana Jones on. Ultimate Exploration was the title I had in mind.
Advanced NPC Codex could include a whole slew of NPCs built from the base classes released after the CRB.
You get the idea, there's still a few products 'missing' from the catalog of Pathfinder that makes me feel like it's still an 'incomplete edition.'
Once we get to the compendium phase after this, I would expect another couple years of 'Codex' books, like Spell Codex, Feat Codex, Rules Codex, etc.
There's plenty of things they could do that will be worth your money, and thankfully they are active enough on the forums to listen to their customers, since we've been getting some stellar products in the years prior to Starfinder being a focus of the company.
I would really like the "unchained" series to continue, with classes getting reworks based on new design philosophies and rebalancing.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Me too^^
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Me too^^
Could you imagine the rage if they unchained wizard and suddenly you didn't get to choose your opposition schools + couldn't memorize them or activate spell triggers?
Well the wizard isn't one of the classes I was thinking of that needed the update. but If they did I think it would end up looking a lot more like the starfinder casters. Have to do weird things to cast spells over 6th level spells but would have a lot more class abilities and ways of manipulating magic. I think overall it would be a funner way of doing it but yeah their would be some outcry.
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah people complain a lot. It is the internet. The issues get over-inflated. People that have no problem rarely on on the site to say so its the negative people that show up and complain. I wouldn't assume that the problems are as extreme as people would lead you to believe with out checking on it yourself. I'll listen to someone else but I won't trust their opinion till I can check on it myself.
I will say however that sacred geometry is a pain
Also I don't think their is a General agreement about ANYTHING on these forums.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
flagrant balance issues
various ways of getting DEX->damage
I'm stumped as to flagrant balance issues ANY of the the dex to damage unless you're talking about them taking way too many feats/restrictions to get... :P [that's not an issue limited to soft covers though]
flagrant balance issuesvarious ways of getting DEX->damageI'm stumped as to flagrant balance issues ANY of the the dex to damage unless you're talking about them taking way too many feats/restrictions to get... :P [that's not an issue limited to soft covers though]
I'll have you know I'm taking that as another thing we agree on. :F
That is weird one thing I do hear often is the core classes are the strongest classes in the game and the later ones tends to be a bit weaker. Just reinforces my no general agreement point.
As far as the hunter goes what point buy are you useing? I've heard at lower point buy games animal companions tend to really shine.
A lot of the complaints I hear of flagrant balance issues seem to come mostly from the softcover books (Sacred Geometry, various ways of getting DEX->damage).
One thing that sometimes gets missed in these conversations is that the Player Companions fulfill a different niche than the hardcover rulebooks.
The PDT doesn’t review the player companion rules elements (though they’re obviously developed and edited multiple times). It’s not surprising that those elements stand out from time to time as weaker or stronger than material which appears in the Core line rulebooks.
The Player Companions are not intended to be as universally applicable across various campaigns.
Also I don't think their is a General agreement about ANYTHING on these forums.
Yeah, I’m struggling to think of many examples. :o
I'm glad to see a slowdown in the release schedule. I don't need three or four new books every month. Bring on HeroFinder and slow it down even more by splitting Paizo's output into thirds.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I see them slowing down on releases but not by that much. The complaints is not so much on how many books the companies imo. Bloat would be tossed about even if they released one book a year. So they will never win on that issue. The main complaints my group and myself and from what I see here and elsewhere and even offline. Is that they devs refuse to find the proper middle ground in designing new material. Either the option is too strong or too weak. It's usually the second more than the first. It's never a mix of something that is both a strong option yet not too strong that it requires nerfing. Too many feats, archetypes etc and the books that hold them keep gathering dust on my shelf. I think their magnum opus was the APG and I'm not sure it will ever be beaten. The devs also have a reputation for nerfing stuff that does not really need to be and ignoring what should be nerfed and when it's done it feels like they nuked the nerfed option from orbit imo. I have a player who may have wanted to play a Lore Warden and won't touch the nerfed version even if one paid him too and will instead take a Arcane Duelist.
5E also is not helping sales with it drawing away players from PF. Probably not enough of a number to hurt sales. Yet it cannot be ignored either. I always find the acceptance of 5E compared to 4E both interesting and funny because 5E borrows many elements of 4E yet 5E is written less to appeal to those who like mmos and more like the usual D&D rpg. I wonder if 4E had been written in a similar style to 5E if 4E would have been more popular. No matter how much someone says the hate something write in such a way as to be acceptable to them and that hate goes away. PT Barnum famous saying about consumers comes to mind.
Having both PF and Starfinder and the dev team split between two game lines probably slows down productivity as well. Starfinder being the newer of the two rpgs and from what I can see very popular. It makes sense for them to focus on that. It's like Palladium Books and Rifts. They have other rpg lines besides Rifts. Yet Rifts is their more popular and profitable line. I will not begrudge Paizo for doing the smart business decision and focusing more on Starfinder.
I don't think a slowdown is necessarily bad. There are already a lot of rules and options to digest and as the low hanging fruit has been long picked the remaining additional classes/races/etc. that are added are increasingly esoteric and niche. I'm telling you, don't pressure these guys for ideas too quickly or this will become a game of feudal japanese swashbuckling fox-people and psionic flying goblins that spit exploding time crystals.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I would love more dex to damage options especially for more then rapier and starknife. Though having to use three or more feats to get it is a bit much.
Splitting up their focus wouldn't be so bad if I actually liked Starfinder.
Personally I don't understand the popularity of 5E but too each their own.