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There is no requirement to use a grid in either PF or PFS. Of course, that doesn't mean your players won't have issue with you doing this and will avoid your tables in the future to the point you can no longer effectively GM. But that's your choice.
Tallow: Well Aware.Paul: So as a GM I could theoretically say my scenario is going to be all 'theatre of the mind' because I didn't have time to draw out maps? And it's legit?
Agreed on both counts. The game mechanics are so tied to the combat grid, that if you choose not to use one, players may get really confused and frustrated. Not everyone has the ability to fully conceptualize and visualize a combat grid and everything's places.
I know this from experience after trying it a couple times. Heck, some players (including myself on an off day), have trouble knowing what's going on when you do use a combat grid.
Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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Tallow: Well Aware.Paul: So as a GM I could theoretically say my scenario is going to be all 'theatre of the mind' because I didn't have time to draw out maps? And it's legit?
Nope, the Guide requires you to run scenario's as written.
Although I know of a number of GM's who use maps which are "vaguely near what is published" as a time saver. I may occasionally be one of those GMs.
The rules say you can't significantly alter the maps though you can use similar maps. I don't recall a requirement that you must use gridded maps on the table, albeit the game is designed around the concept of doing this, so I am not sure why you would want to do this.
So I don't see why you can't use theatre of the mind. You would just have to use the maps provide to create that theatre.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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Agreed on both counts. The game mechanics are so tied to the combat grid, that if you choose not to use one, players may get really confused and frustrated. Not everyone has the ability to fully conceptualize and visualize a combat grid and everything's places.
I know this from experience after trying it a couple times. Heck, some players (including myself on an off day), have trouble knowing what's going on when you do use a combat grid.
Theatre of the mind is particularly difficult when you have a character or NPC built on provoking AofOs.
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Theatre of the mind is particularly difficult when you have a character or NPC built on provoking AofOs.Agreed on both counts. The game mechanics are so tied to the combat grid, that if you choose not to use one, players may get really confused and frustrated. Not everyone has the ability to fully conceptualize and visualize a combat grid and everything's places.
I know this from experience after trying it a couple times. Heck, some players (including myself on an off day), have trouble knowing what's going on when you do use a combat grid.
Line of Effect, Line of Sight, Charge Lanes, Flanking, Avoiding AoO's, and anything that includes 3D combat (flying, burrowing, swimming, etc.) just make visualizing things very difficult.
Now, ideally, in Theater of the Mind, a player just trusts the GM, and the GM is liberal in allowing players to do what they want. But when you build characters, and more importantly are very used to playing that character, around very specific grid mechanics, it really isn't fair to that player to then say, "Sorry, everything you know about your character and how it works, throw it out, we are going to just imagine things today."
Venture-Lieutenant, Online—PbP
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I've used theater of the mind during combat occasionally for non-PFS or campaign mode adventures. It can work in the right circumstances. I don't think I would want GMs to be able to choose to use it in PFS, though, because it increases the amount that is left to the GM's judgement.
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Am I a 'bad GM' for knowing that as soon as I put down a battlemat/map the player mindset goes to 'combat moad' versus any of the other thinking?
This is a function of this particular game system/campaign. I don't think you are going to get away from that at all. Now I've waited to place the battle map until initiative actually gets rolled, and that helps. But there is always going to be the "combat mode" mindset when a map gets placed.
Would it make me 'bad' to want to avoid that for an encounter the entire table enjoys without that encumberance?
If you have a group of players that you know enjoy and can handle the Theater of the Mind, I say go for it. But if you are at a convention or getting a group of randos... I'd say stick to the map. Just my suggestion and opinion though. YMMV.
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Non-combat but die-rolling type situations (like Bid for Alabastrine, Shores of Heaven, etc) I actually make a chart the players can put their mini on so they can chart their progress, so it's even more visually intensive in that regard than the scenario calls for.
--I've had no complaints from that.
As always, knowing the table is to such a thing working well.
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So they didn't deliberately end dex magi they just wanted them packing the pews of the temple of saranrae?They did not because they didn't errata dervish. If they wanted to remove both options they would have changed both.
Except they only erratta when they reprint and they don't reprint the line that dervish dance came out of.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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So as a GM I could theoretically say my scenario is going to be all 'theatre of the mind' because I didn't have time to draw out maps? And it's legit?
Absolutely.
Here's an example. When I run "Haunting of Hinojai" there's a beautiful map in the scenario, which I never use. The scenario is all atmospheric: find out what happened at this place, and the method the party has to use (triggering haunts and paying attention to their clues) makes the adventure a horror show. It's a great scenario to present to players to make them really scared and unsure of what's happening.
And having a big happy map, showing the whole place, ruins that experience.
So I describe each room but don't refer to a map. I don't let the players start thinking tactically, unless and until we're in initiative. Even then, if the encounters are environmentally simple, I just need to keep track of distances.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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Side note about theater of the mind: please consider carefully before doing this for combats. One of my worst experiences ever in PFS was made even worse because the GM refused to draw a map for the final BBEG fight.
The final map here is critical because there are traps, secret doors, and a BBEG that uses flight and reach to attack foes. The combat was confusing to say the least, and reached a boiling point when the GM had the creature five foot step to cast a spell, after players had specifically positioned their characters to try and prevent such an action. Voices were raised, and the entire table had a terrible time--GM included.
That's not to say TOTM isn't always a bad idea, as others have noted (I have done it a few times myself), but it does bring new challenges to your table that typically aren't there. Like how to resolve AOOs, flanking, reach, cover, spell lines and AOEs, etc. All the things that are readily available when there is a map. Also remember that some players latch onto the specificity of Pathfinder grid-combat as a touchstone for their games (they feel more in control when they can move their own mini, etc), and as a result removing the grid can make them feel very uncomfortable.
So please take all that into account before removing your map.
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Bad GMs: I consider GMs & Players as being the same folks--participants in PFS. So, to me, the question in this thread is "how to avoid bad PFS participants?"
My answer to that is to consider "good - bad" or "skilled - unskilled" as a spectrum. We all start somewhere on it and move one way or the other the more we play PFS. Personally, I started my PFS career as what I would now refer to as "a bad GM." It takes time, patience, and a healthy community to develop "good" participants.
So how to avoid bad participants? My advice is to not. Adjust your attitude to appreciate that they're at a different place along the road of understanding and see what you can do to help them move along. I'm not saying you need to be a zen master or anything, but I often like to extend some words of wisdom or suggestions before refusing to play with people any more. And these are those individuals who, for whatever reason, seem set in their ways and are unwilling to broaden their perspective. That's willful ignorance, and sadly, there is no known cure. To those people, just avoid them once you've extended the olive branch.
Avoiding GMs that have tons of deaths? Again, my advice is to not. Adventuring has risks, and deaths happen. Typically due to PC error, dice rolls, or GM mistakes. And GMs should be willing to overturn their mistakes (misread tactics, abilities, etc). As a GM with 300+ tables I have a lot of PC deaths*. Some were my mistakes, but a majority are from foolish player decisions or crits. Also, more deaths occur when players are new, and grow fewer once people are more familiar with the system.
So I'd say the best approach is to see why deaths are happening. Is it really the GM? Are they fudging dice and changing tactics? Or did someone put their PC in a bad spot? Did a greataxe crit that guy? If its the GM, have a conversation. Why are they kill-happy? Do they understand the game is about telling a cooperative story? If they are cheating, speak to the local VO. They are participating as a PFS GM and are expected to follow the rules--cheating is not permitted for sanctioned play. If it's the players, also have a conversation. Work with them on tactics and character building decisions. It’s important to remember that we're all in this together, and even death can be fun if everyone is having a good time with it.
The way we made it fun is to have a “Wall of Names” at our LGS, where all our PFS and homebrew characters get tacked up once they inevitably bite the bullet. It makes character death a lot less serious and even new players are laughing if they get eaten by a monster. There are 20+ sheets up there from 5ish years of gaming at this shop, and each one has a good story behind it.
*As a player, my PCs have also died a fair bit; I have a few level 5+ PFS characters that are true dead
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16
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The way that was handled sounds pretty bad, but dervish dance working when slashing grace et all do not would make absolutely no sense. Its not a gray area, its pitch black with a teeeeeny tiny spot of light somewhere off in the distance.
slashing grace should have worked like Dervish Dance in the first place.
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I don't run Theater of the Mind enough in my home game to be confident enough to do so in PFS, but it's definitely a fun idea. I've played with some GMs in PFS who rarely put maps down unless we've rolled initiative and I think it's a really effective way to keep players on their toes.
As to the main point, I think I like what Walter said: we should all be helping each other get better! At first PFS is really overwhelming because of the breadth of experience of the players and GMs, but if you are willing to get critiqued, and eventually give some, it can be super rewarding.
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Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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I am an odd duck when it comes to maps. I have been known to lay down maps for social encounters, so that everyone can “see” the folks they are supposed to influence at a party. (It also removes some of the problems with everyone buffing when they see a map.). I have also done theater of the mind a few times for segments where I thought that it would flow better (like the first part of Sun Orchid Scheme, where my map was this — two boxes, to indicate which part of the camp your characters were in that day.)
I love to draw maps, use maps... But I sometimes I choose to eschew them for the flow of a specific scene.
Learning how to figure out when to map, and when not to map, may be part of each GMs personal journey. For GMs starting out in learning how to GM, I would suggest using maps. Having the terrain, knowing whether you are flanking, all this is helpful information for players.
Hmm
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I'd personally check in with players if you are going to run theater of the mind. The several times I've played in them I ended up being very confused about what was going on. For example distances often changed due to GM's forgetting what they just said a few minutes earlier. Lots of problems with consistency. Also, when multiple targets I can't tell what is the best target for ranged weapons. etc. I can't tell where is the best place for my character based on where the enemies are. Etc.
If a GM said they are going to run a game in theater of the mind. I would likely decline to play at that table due to previous poor experiences. Social encounters seem find but combat encounters are tough to do well.
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Okay, so, I'm a super deadly GM. At this point in my PFS career, I have 22 kills, +1 person polymorphed into a chinchilla.
But, I'm liked as a GM in part because my games are so deadly. I don't pull punches, I follow the combat instructions even if it means players get hurt, when combat instructions aren't available I follow the creatures Int stat which means actually using tactics, and working the terrain to your advantage.
But part of being a good deadly gm is understanding when it's applicable to be deadly. As has been pointed out repeatedly here, read your table. In my home store with ventran PFS players who've dealt with me before? Full throttle, give them all I got. Randos or small children who are trying the game out? Well, maybe a baddy forgets a move that could have killed off a kid's character. Nothing major, just... taking into mind who I'm working with.
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I have one confirmed kill and two honorable mentions.First permakill was table 60, starting a long history of being very dangerous to ninjas, especially 10 Con ones.
In Eyes of the Ten Part 1, I made a 12 year girl cry when I killed her cleric.
I'm such a monster.
I made a 10 YO cry when I one shotted his pregen brawler in Serpent's Rise. And another character of his had been killed earlier in that day. I'm a bigger monster. :)
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I've run over 300 tables and have about 25 kills including 2 TPk's. Both TPK's involved certain players who said they weer a certain level and qualified for that level with xp but after the scenario I learned they didn't actually level their character to that level. Also both involved poor decisions on the part of players and some bad luck. In both cases they did not have an exit route. One the only way the incorporeal creature could get to the party was to go through a wall and go behind the party thus blocking their escape route. The second TPK the party was looking for an alternate rout out of the dungeon after a trap blocked them into the dungeon. Simply by bad luck they went the wrong way in the dungeon and put themselves in a real bad spot with no escape route. In both cases not one hero in the party have an "oh s%$&" item to get out. (Ie. potion of Gaseous form, scroll of D.Door etc. )
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Oh, forgot the other thing that I do to help with Totm (social/abstract encounters). I get 8x11 pictures and clip them to my GM screen so folks know who they're talking to.
For a larger convention (it hasn't come up... yet) I think I'd get a couple of plastic picture frames to put the pictures in.
But as noted above, trying to run Combat ToTM is... hard.
...I did it in a different campaign for... a while, by campaign rules and design.
I'd rather not do that if I can avoid it.
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I have killed two PC's both due to critical hits. One by a Minotaur and one by a possessed Fighter PC. Druid died to Minotaur and Rogue fell to the Fighter.
Both were straight up roles, out in the open, in the middle of the table. I know its a part of the game but I still feel bad when I kill a character with a cool concept.
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How did this go from "Ways to avoid bad GMs" to "Who's killed more PCs?" PC death is not something to brag about - it feeds the myth of an antagonistic relationship between players and GMs instead of building the idea of a shared experience. I know people are responding to posts and not really publicly bragging here, but I can't help but think that one of the suggestions I'd give the OP is, "avoid any GMs that brag about or revels in their kills".
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As for Theater of the Mind: I love it, but I don't do it any more in Pathfinder. There are far too many abilities that depend on exact ranges, AoO's, 5' steps, etc. that it can nullify many monster abilities. I have done it in a few special cases where I have the map behind the screen, and just tell players what they see. In practice, it just means every player's turn requires a new description from their point of view.
This is actually why I got into doing custom maps, props, and 3D terrain - it provides a level of immersion like TotM, but retains the positional exactitude that the game system now requires. It`s still not as immersive as Theatre of the Mind, but what it loses in fidelity it gains in consistency.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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How did this go from "Ways to avoid bad GMs" to "Who's killed more PCs?" PC death is not something to brag about - it feeds the myth of an antagonistic relationship between players and GMs instead of building the idea of a shared experience. I know people are responding to posts and not really publicly bragging here, but I can't help but think that one of the suggestions I'd give the OP is, "avoid any GMs that brag about or revels in their kills".
I started tracking my kills a while ago, not because I wanted to brag about it, but because I had noticed a marked increase in my kill rate and wanted to see what might be causing it. I found the following to be the most common reasons (ranked by frequency):
1) Crits (especially against low level players).
2) Lucky streaks (either in terms of me rolling very well for multiple rounds or the party rolling very poorly for multiple rounds or both).
3) Players made significant tactical errors
4) Tactical bad luck (the party had a bad makeup for a particular fight, particularly bad starting positioning or other things that were random but not related to combat dice rolls).
5) Particularly tough adventure.
6) GM error (these were reversed when discovered).
1 & 2 together made up well over half the kills. The irony here is that I polled my players a while ago about whether they wanted me to roll the dice behind a GM screen (and possibly fudge rolls both in their favor when things were going bad, and against them when they were being particularly successful) or they wanted me to roll the dice out in the open and let the dice lie where they may. The consensus was the latter and that decision correlated with my increased kill rate.
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Except they only erratta when they reprint and they don't reprint the line that dervish dance came out of.So they didn't deliberately end dex magi they just wanted them packing the pews of the temple of saranrae?They did not because they didn't errata dervish. If they wanted to remove both options they would have changed both.
Inner Sea World Guide? I know it's in Qadira, but it's also in ISWG, which is a hard-cover book.
Also, this is something that would absolutely cause me to walk away from a table and avoid a PFS GM from that point on. He is taking one ruling on a set of specific rule/item and applying it to something it isn't stated to apply to. This can be argued as GM variation, but it could be called cheating as well. Flat out altering the rules of feats or abilities is beyond the powers of a PFS GM.
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Flat out altering the rules of feats or abilities is beyond the powers of a PFS GM.
It is not altering the rules or cheating or any other accusation you want to level at people.
Benefit: When wielding a scimitar with one hand, you can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on melee attack and damage rolls. You treat the scimitar as a one-handed piercing weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s precise strike ability). The scimitar must be for a creature of your size. You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand.
RAW: So the question is, is using spell combat the same as carrying a weapon in your off hand?
Before the faq on slashing grace i would have called that more than a bit of a reach. After the faq i don't see how else you could rule it. You can take an overly literal interpretation of carrying a weapon from a feat written at a time when holding a weapon in your off hand was just about the only way to use your other hand, but that would let you two weapon fight with quickdraw shennanigans (with two scimitars even) or you can say that the spell that arms like a weapon, gives you attacks like a weapon, uses attack rolls like a weapon, and that you are explicitly two weapon fighting with *gasp* acts like a weapon is in fact a weapon.
RAI: Paizo is trying to make fencing a thing you do in combat by making up for the styles inherent weaknesses by giving it a thematic ability no other style can do. What on earth would be the point of closing off slashing grace making every magus a scimitar wielding dex zapper that obviated fencing in order to open up dervish dance making every magus a saranrae worshiping scimitar wielding dex zapper that obviated fencing?
If you're going to call that cheating you're going to have a similar problem with any common sense over inane raw ruling any dm might make, which is a LOT of them.
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The difference is that slash grace requires the hand be unoccupied and not attacking. Dervish Dance requires no WEAPON or SHIELD in your off hand. Those are completely different and is why there's no amiguity.
Why do you think dervish dance doesn't want another weapon in your off hand?
*edit* starting a thread on this
Suffice to say, people would like to see the rules clarification process, which has kind of died off for a while, be a bit more robust.
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How did this go from "Ways to avoid bad GMs" to "Who's killed more PCs?" PC death is not something to brag about - it feeds the myth of an antagonistic relationship between players and GMs instead of building the idea of a shared experience. I know people are responding to posts and not really publicly bragging here, but I can't help but think that one of the suggestions I'd give the OP is, "avoid any GMs that brag about or revels in their kills".
For me it's more of a guide. I'm saying in 300 tables i have about 25 character deaths for a death rate of somewhere around 8%. i think that is about where it should be. If no one ever dies there is no challenge in the game. It's not bragging I'm saying if your kill rate is somewhere north of 10% you are probably too high.
I know a GM who kills players in most of his games. I would guess he is somewhere around a 60% kill rate. Of course everyone who knows avoids him. How does he do this? Well he coup de gras's downed characters. And despite that he has been spoken to by the area VC's he continued to do it. He makes an excuse of why he can bypass tactics and take characters out permanently. I have not seen him GMing much in the past 9 months so I don't know if he got a sterner warning or became burned out.
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Kill rate varies a lot by whether you play a lot of high games or not. I play a lot of low level games
levels 1-5 i am actively trying not to kill you
levels 6-8 let the dice fall how they may
Levels 9+ DIE DIE DIE! ... because I have to or there's no challenge at all.
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I try not to kill kids. I can recall during a special there was a 8 year old kid. A creature was full attacking him. With a critical it put him down to 1 hit point. One more hit and minimum damage from the creature would have outright killed him. so I 5 foot stepped to the next character in line and finished out the attack. His mother saw what I did and said the GM is being nice to you.
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In PFS there's no absolute way to avoid bad GMs, just like it's relatively impossible to avoid bad players. Nor are all bad GMs inexperienced GMs and some of the greenest GMs I've played with over the last 30+ years I've been gaming have been some of the best.
The change to pre-gen deaths just made the situation even worse. If I have any doubt at all, I just elect not to play PFS and go do something else. The correlation between that change and an increase in tables that don't make I'm sure would be interesting, but I doubt anyone actually tracks it and would just assume that correlation =\= causation, even when it is.
The only advise I can give is to watch how the sign-ups work out. If people consistently drop after specific people sign-up to GM, odds are that they may not be someone you would want to play under. Likewise if you notice that one GM's tables never seem to fill as fast as another and then the table suddenly fills when they drop to run something else, it could also be a sign.