Changes to the Shifter


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Yeah, I'm fully on board with taking the training wheels off of Wild Shape. As far as I'm concerned, Aspects are a huge failure on every front. Too few of them, minor aspects too short in duration or too situational or too minor, major aspects are a waste of page space when you could just use regular wildshape, early access to pounce is unbalancing at low levels, 15th level aspect boosts are way too weak in comparison.

Remove aspects, give real wild shape, and add actual innovative class features.

It would be great if Shifters could choose bonus effects when shifting, like removing poisions, granting temporary hit points or fast healing, and at higher levels things like actual chimeric effects as discussed previously. It'd be like paladin mercies.


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In terms of the Shifter's shape changing ability, I don't have a problem with the current wildshape and 5 aspects if what you're going for is a chimeric shapeshifter theme. The traditional chimera is often a combination of 3-5 animals. The shifter could be improved by making it a true chimeric shapeshifter. By true I mean that it can in some way, shape, or form, combine it's greater aspects to some degree in a chimeric animal shape.

This would make the shifter's shapechanging even more different than a druid. A druid can shape into more creatures but can't combine any of these animals into a chimeric form. That could be a way to further differentiate the shifter's shapechanging talent from the druid and make the shifter better at an aspect of shapechanging than any other class.

Graystone's idea of using one of the greater aspect as the base and swapping abilities would seem to be a simple change to greater chimeric aspect. It could be changed so that you can use it as currently written with your minor aspects being combined, or you could swap specific parts of two major aspects (and not combining the minor aspects). The number of major aspects you could draw from for the swapping could increase to three at a later level and maybe all five at level 19 or 20. It could be restricted to swapping a movement for a movement, a sense for a sense, an attack for an attack. I'm definitely not a class designer so I'm sure there are problems with this swapping mechanic. The key point for me is that making the shifter a true chimeric shapeshifter at higher levels would really make the class more exciting and fun.


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I am still confused by the fact that the ability to add your wisdom mod to minutes per day for aspects is locked behind a feat tax. Is there any reason for that?

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Because they didn't want Wisdom to way too heavily as it's already being used for Shifter Instincts (where it adds either Wisdom modifier to Dex for AC or half Wisdom modifier to Dex for AC if armored)?

My guess, at least?


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But at the same time, before the Wildshape change Defensive Instinct was the only place it was being used. Which basically made it a false multi-ability dependency. Which is why I'm glad they added Wis scaling to Wildshape, and wish it had been added to Minor Aspects too if they're not going to just give us always-on minor aspects.


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Dracala wrote:
Honestly Wultram, the point of the Ability Bonuses is so you don't Need the belt and can put your money towards elsewhere, for example Wild Enchant on your armor. At least that's how I look at it, which to me just brings up the fact that we need more time per day on our Minor Aspects...

Considering that one gets like 8-10 minutes of minor aspects at mid levels (which go fast once you start wanting two at once) I think I'd probably rather buy the belt in my most important stat (say, strength) since I might get called on to, say, open the rusty gate because "you're the strong one" and not want to waste a minute of an aspect.

I feel like this particulary affects the Elementalist who wants to start using two minor aspects at once all the time once they are level 9, and they only have aspects which grant enhancement bonuses. So like pick earth (acid resist is rare) and air (flying might come in handy) and buy a strength belt.

Shadow Lodge

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I wonder if, in the future, we'll get an archetype that trades Wis AC for with a Con AC that grants Natural Armor. It fits Shifter a lot better in my opinion.


Shinigami02 wrote:
But at the same time, before the Wildshape change Defensive Instinct was the only place it was being used. Which basically made it a false multi-ability dependency. Which is why I'm glad they added Wis scaling to Wildshape, and wish it had been added to Minor Aspects too if they're not going to just give us always-on minor aspects.

Yeah, but it is wisdom on a bad will class. So I am willing to accept false MAD when it gives me an excuse to up my will save.


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The main issue with it being false MAD is that point buy is quite cruel when you need those stats. Oozemorphs are actually MAD, needing all the physical stats to even survive past lv 1, as well as a will save to not get polymorphed into whatever the wizard feels like. At least they've attempted to fix the false MAD property of the shifter.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'd rather not have yet another MAD class but I'm in the minority. Anyway the enhancement bonuses granted by the minor aspects are terribly unimaginative when you could have used much more thematic bonuses in their place. Frankly I'm not a fan of the aspects, didn't like it on the hunter and I don't like it on the shifter.

If you ask me you should just ditch the idea of minor and major forms and have aspects be some form of improving "mantle" if you would that improves both your base form and wild shape. You don't necessarily turn into the animal but they grant you features and abilities of the animal along with cosmetic changes.


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I feel like every non-ranged martial with a bad will save is intrinsically MAD. I don't know if there is a way around that.


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I just wish there was an easier way to get AC as an oozemorph at low levels, since you are relying on Dex to have even a paltry 14 for most of a day. I've yet to play a game where my character doesn't get within 5% of getting killed doing what most martials do best in terms of fighting against another creature in melee range. DR/slashing just doesn't cut it.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

At some point in the future they need to add a Honey Badger (Or Ratel) aspect for the class, currently I am using the wolverine for that aspect.

this was not at all inspired by this meme or anime character.


Painful Bugger wrote:

I'd rather not have yet another MAD class but I'm in the minority. Anyway the enhancement bonuses granted by the minor aspects are terribly unimaginative when you could have used much more thematic bonuses in their place. Frankly I'm not a fan of the aspects, didn't like it on the hunter and I don't like it on the shifter.

If you ask me you should just ditch the idea of minor and major forms and have aspects be some form of improving "mantle" if you would that improves both your base form and wild shape. You don't necessarily turn into the animal but they grant you features and abilities of the animal along with cosmetic changes.

I'll admit that my math is probably skewed since I only have eyes for the elementalist, who runs around with armor and an amulet of natural armor (since I just use the scimitar).

The shifters that actually wildshape probably feel far more of a squeeze due to AC, so they are tempted into a monk-like turtle.

So I am satisfied with a 16/14/14/mental-stat-14 type spread. The low level of mad that you see with the 6 level melee casters usually.

EDIT- adding in more suggestions: For the 'advanced aspect training' suggestion, how about trading only part of the aspect for options? The partial switch out would be like the various things you see with the sorcerer/blood rager bloodlines (such as the option to trade the first power for a familiar, or the wildbloodlines).

This would allow the player to retain the wildshape option, while trading out a potentially undesirable minor aspect.

A few limited use SLAs might be an appropriate trade for this kind of thing.


well liked my shifter belt idea anyways :P


PossibleCabbage wrote:
I feel like this particulary affects the Elementalist who wants to start using two minor aspects at once all the time once they are level 9, and they only have aspects which grant enhancement bonuses. So like pick earth (acid resist is rare) and air (flying might come in handy) and buy a strength belt.

The combo of earth and air is even better than that- how many things can you think of that resist both acid and electricity?

Fire and cold often see enemies that can resist both- creatures that are resistant to temperature changes in general. But a lot of the things that might resist acid don't really have a justification to resist electricity except "it resists everything" (but even really high CR monsters usually only resist three of the elements; and those are usually hot/cold/one of the other two).

Although I am not sure if I would use the minor aspects, even then. While regular shifters only use their swift action for their claws (a minor benefit to damage and situational anti DR tool), the elementalist constantly uses the action to get their main damage mechanic up. While the aspect lasts the entire fight, it still requires you to take up the first round, and elemental strike is enough damage where I think that even a move+attack is attractive.

I also worry about surprise attacks when you use aspects- having 3 less AC and 60 less HP makes you more vulnerable to ambushes. The hunter version of this mechanic was better, since they could keep it applied constantly for their AC (who ate up extra equipment costs).


lemeres wrote:
Although I am not sure if I would use the minor aspects, even then.

I could see using the minor aspects, just not for combat: Use them to buff skill/ability checks or when you know you'll be needing saves. For instance, if the rogue is playing with a nasty looking poison gas trap it might be a good time for more con or you find a gate that needs lifting and you bump up your str.


graystone wrote:
lemeres wrote:
Although I am not sure if I would use the minor aspects, even then.
I could see using the minor aspects, just not for combat: Use them to buff skill/ability checks or when you know you'll be needing saves. For instance, if the rogue is playing with a nasty looking poison gas trap it might be a good time for more con or you find a gate that needs lifting and you bump up your str.

Yeah, but then I would prefer grabbing a belt. I know this is nice early on, when magic items are scarce... but eventually, a constant version of this ability that doesn't eat up action economy is a better deal.

The enhancement bonus minor aspects would need to be reworked if they are to be made relevant. The simplest answer would be to make them size bonuses instead- that way, it replaces the bonuses you would normally get from wildshape. And it would actually make the shifter's wild shape get an edge over the druid's-since the druid's wild shape is dependant on actual size- you can't be a medium sized raptor without going with a much lower bonus than some huge allosaurus. In comparison, the shifter could turn into a medium sized major form and not experience any problems.

This could actually make them more versatile in terms of environment- they could be suited to fights in tight alleyways and dungeon corridors. Which could be made to fit the flavor- the shifters are often the agents of druidic circles, and might be the ones they ask to scout out offending cities. So having their full powers no matter their size and the fast transformation from that one feat would allow them to easily move into action when they sneak in and find targets/pursuers.


At that you could just make them un-typed. or make up a type for them.


I feel like the riders the elementalist gets at 9th level for combining two effects are probably worth the swift action considering you get stat boosts too. At least stuff like 20% miss chance for ranged attacks, all adjacent terrain is difficult for others, everyone within 20' takes 1d6 nonlethal/round, and maybe the volcano one.


lemeres: I don't disagree with you that the aspects could/should be more relevant/useful. I was commenting on non-combat uses for the current ones.

Belts: I figured that you'd be bumping up your favorite stat with the belt, so there could be some use in using an aspect for those physical stats the belt doesn't cover even if it's just for non-combat skills/saves. This is especially true if you're able to buff all three stats with aspects.


graystone wrote:

lemeres: I don't disagree with you that the aspects could/should be more relevant/useful. I was commenting on non-combat uses for the current ones.

Belts: I figured that you'd be bumping up your favorite stat with the belt, so there could be some use in using an aspect for those physical stats the belt doesn't cover even if it's just for non-combat skills/saves. This is especially true if you're able to buff all three stats with aspects.

Yeah, you can certainly do that with the belt for a while- that is a good options until about mid levels. But eventually, you start to get the wealth and a high enough level that you should really look into just getting the belt.

It just gets to me that minor aspects like that are not future proofed in the same way you see in the various divine bond style mechanics. They work well to give you simple number buffs early on (giving paladins an option against neutral opponents), and later you can turn the extra enhancement bonus into useful stuff like ghost touch or holy.


lemeres wrote:
that is a good options until about mid levels.

I'm sure my outlook is different than yours as My games tend to end at those mid levels: @10-12

lemeres wrote:
It just gets to me that minor aspects like that are not future proofed in the same way you see in the various divine bond style mechanics.

*nods* I'm right there with you. Myself, I'd rather see the aspect bonus to stats change type as you level instead of increasing the number. For instance, make it a size bonus at 8th and then a inherent or sacred bonus at 15. This keeps the bonuses useful after you get the belts. A +2 that stacked is MUCH more useful that a +6 that doesn't.

Size: I'm thinking size at 8th mainly as an offset to the penalty for large/tiny or buffing con while wildshaped and a straight buff out of it.


Wait-wait-wait, does Chimeric Aspect consumes double Shifter Aspect time if two aspects are chosen? And so it needs two different swift action to activate?

I thought that a 9th level Shifter could use Chimeric Aspect to gain benefits of two different aspects, using 1 minute increment (as it were only one aspect active) and with a single swift action

Vidmaster7 wrote:
At that you could just make them un-typed. or make up a type for them.

Seconding this. Maybe size boni? Like the kineticist class after the playtest


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I wonder if the best thing for Shifter aspects would be to make them size bonuses instead of enhancement bonuses (a la Elemental Overflow which gives you size bonuses to physical attributes without changing your size). I mean, the reason the bear or tiger or whatever makes you powerful is in part because those things are big.

I don't think making the shifter the rare martial that doesn't want to be the target of Enlarge Person would be an issue.


45ur4 wrote:

Wait-wait-wait, does Chimeric Aspect consumes double Shifter Aspect time if two aspects are chosen? And so it needs two different swift action to activate?

I thought that a 9th level Shifter could use Chimeric Aspect to gain benefits of two different aspects, using 1 minute increment (as it were only one aspect active) and with a single swift action.

Honestly that's exactly how I read it. It doesn't say that you use more charges with Chimeric, it just says you can pick two aspects instead of one when you use a minor form.

Ultimate Wilderness pg 28 wrote:

Chimeric Aspect (Su): At 9th level, when a shifter uses her shifter aspect ability to take on a minor form, she can choose two aspects and assume the minor form of each aspect.

Scarab Sages

PossibleCabbage wrote:

I wonder if the best thing for Shifter aspects would be to make them size bonuses instead of enhancement bonuses (a la Elemental Overflow which gives you size bonuses to physical attributes without changing your size). I mean, the reason the bear or tiger or whatever makes you powerful is in part because those things are big.

I don't think making the shifter the rare martial that doesn't want to be the target of Enlarge Person would be an issue.

I'm pretty sure several forms are already getting size bonuses as part of wild shape, so there might be some conflict there.

Shadow Lodge

Call it a shifting bonus or an Aspect bonus. Simple.


Belabras wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

I wonder if the best thing for Shifter aspects would be to make them size bonuses instead of enhancement bonuses (a la Elemental Overflow which gives you size bonuses to physical attributes without changing your size). I mean, the reason the bear or tiger or whatever makes you powerful is in part because those things are big.

I don't think making the shifter the rare martial that doesn't want to be the target of Enlarge Person would be an issue.

I'm pretty sure several forms are already getting size bonuses as part of wild shape, so there might be some conflict there.

But you don't need to use a minor aspect to wild shape, so these are separate abilities.


Belabras wrote:
I'm pretty sure several forms are already getting size bonuses as part of wild shape, so there might be some conflict there.

There are but only 1 bonus at a time, so Chimeric Aspect at 9th could still be 100% effective in wildshape by boosting the other 2 and since the highest bonus is +4 for wildshape, once the 15th bump comes into effect even the bonus from wildshape is less than the increase.


Oh they added more stuff in the FAQ. Just noticed. That's a good start.

So how much more fixes can we expect and when?

For my next campaign, I have a player wanting something Druid-like without the spellcasting and Shifter is right up his ally cause he likes martial types. But, sadly, until the Shifter gets the update it needs, he's not going to want to opt into it.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
Belabras wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

I wonder if the best thing for Shifter aspects would be to make them size bonuses instead of enhancement bonuses (a la Elemental Overflow which gives you size bonuses to physical attributes without changing your size). I mean, the reason the bear or tiger or whatever makes you powerful is in part because those things are big.

I don't think making the shifter the rare martial that doesn't want to be the target of Enlarge Person would be an issue.

I'm pretty sure several forms are already getting size bonuses as part of wild shape, so there might be some conflict there.
But you don't need to use a minor aspect to wild shape, so these are separate abilities.

And with Minor Form as a size bonus it would overlap wildshape size penalties like strength when morphing in a small animal, or dexterity penalty when turning into large one.

Dracalawrote: wrote:
Honestly that's exactly how I read it. It doesn't say that you use more charges with Chimeric, it just says you can pick two aspects instead of one when you use a minor form.

Ok, sometimes I have hard times reading in English...


I'd say don't make it a size bonus; otherwise you are negating the wild shape bonus and since so many of you all are fighting to make Wild Shape work like the Druid's; you'd just be negating one of the classes abilities.

They could easily just make it something like an inherent bonus, or race bonus. Which especially for skills makes sense; as many creatures have racial bonuses to skills at least. And no races ability mods are considered racial bonuses. It might in some circumstances negate a races racial skill bonus; but by the rules of polymorph you'd likely lose those anyways.

But I still think the new way they are doing Wild Shape just for the Shifter is bad; keep it the same as the druids for duration. If they want give the shifter more shifts a day then increase that in itself; so that IF/When they clarify Shifter counting as a druid for Wild Shape; they are getting equal benefit from the multiple items/feats/etc that are gained. Because +1 hour is not equal to +1 hour per druid/shifter level. And yet costs of the items wouldn't be adjusted for the different of power.

Also someone (LittleMissNaga I believe) asked how the Shifter plays as written. And as someone who has been playing one for a while and is level 8; they play fine as they are. May not be the strongest but I enjoy it; and enjoy it far more than a beastkin berserker (which is what it was originally and switched at level 4) that some have said does the shifting thing better.

Someone else mentioned a feat for additional aspects; there is a magic item that can give you an additional aspect; Bestial Rags. Or it can increase your effective level if it's one you already have.


@Roivan its Not +1 hour, its literally Shifter Level + Wisdom Bonus uses per day, at lvl 9 w/ an 18 in Wisdom and a +6 Headband if you nix the 8 hrs of sleep, you can stay shifted all day long if you want. BUT the purposes of the change isn't about staying in the same form, its so that you can change your form more easily on the fly. As it stands the Druid Version, doesn't really allow that, because of how FEW uses per day it actually has.

PS: I know I for one am building for Wisdom, because I want the Wild Shape feats that have high Wisdom requirements, more Wild Shapes per day, and a higher AC Bonus from Defensive Instinct.

Hell I have a lvl 12 Rogue/Alchemist (that I keep forgetting to use the Extracts on >.> I kinda treat her more like a Rogue, despite having far more levels in Alch >.>) that has Int and Dex in the mid 20s.


Dracala wrote:
@Roivan its Not +1 hour, its literally Shifter Level + Wisdom Bonus uses per day, at lvl 9 w/ an 18 in Wisdom and a +6 Headband if you nix the 8 hrs of sleep, you can stay shifted all day long if you want. BUT the purposes of the change isn't about staying in the same form, its so that you can change your form more easily on the fly. As it stands the Druid Version, doesn't really allow that, because of how FEW uses per day it actually has.

I am not talking about class wild shape uses or duration. I know what the rules are for that; and frankly I don't like it as someone that has actually played the class. I can see it is making me lose some of the versatility of not just being for combat. Like 1 game, I flew part of the party in owl form over what would have taken us over a day to walk; in just 8 hours. That wouldn't be efasible at the same level without some min-maxing and end up using most of yourwild shape duration for the day.

But I was talking about items like Druidic Vestment which gives you 1 extra use of wild shape. For a Shifter it would be +1 hour, for a Druid it'd be +1 hour / level.

By having the two Wild Shapes be such vastly different durations; it is making the items be of far less value for one class over the other. It also is going to cause no end of headaches in regards to anyone that say, multiclasses into a class that gets Wild Shape. There are far better ways to fix this than changing the duration of Wild Shape. They could give it more base uses (say start with 3 or 4, or let Wisdom give you bonus ones} and keep the same increase of +1 use per 2 levels. Or make it once per level uses per day; but keep the 1 hour per level duration on each use. It would stop the disparity and trouble arising from different durations. And this would then still allow long term use of a form at a decent level instead of towards what would be the end of most APs.

As for you saying you can stay in it all day. With an 18 Wisdom (+4), and +6 headband (+3) that is +7 hours; you'd have to be level 17 (or 11 if you didn't want to stay in form while sleeping 8 hours; which personally I'd rather stay in animal form especially if it gets a perception bonus) to stay in wild shape all day with those stats. Where as by 17th level as it is in the actual book; you'd have 7 uses per day each of those 17 hours. By the time you're 8th level normally you could be in Wild Shape all day; even if only 3 uses (or 4 with a druid vestament).


Dracala wrote:
PS: I know I for one am building for Wisdom, because I want the Wild Shape feats that have high Wisdom requirements, more Wild Shapes per day, and a higher AC Bonus from Defensive Instinct.

I think the class would make more sense thematically to dump Wisdom as the important stat, and make it Constitution. Could be that instead of some spiritual connection to nature or whatever, that it is the bodies' physical ability to withstand or to change. Like how a kineticist uses Constitution. You could make the Defensive Instinct still be an AC increase of some sort (wouldn't even need to be Natural; could be still be Dodge and be similar to how in comics characters like Mr Fantastic's or Plasticman's body rebounds with it or warps around it just not to the same degree). And would make sense why armor doesn't remove all of it, but some. It's restrictive to it. Then make Constitution count in place of Wisdom for the Wild Shape feats.

This is supposed to be a Martial class; so it's important stat should be a physical one. Could then have an archetype or feat that gives fast healing or regeneration based on it instead; which off Con makes more sense to cause healing than Wis.

----

As for some of the other things people are saying like in regards to aspects. Maybe give the freedom of Druid Wild Shape; but make the aspects be small categories of animal types (feline, avian, fish, arachnid, etc.) of features you can add to your wild shape form. Give each ability under the type a numeric value and you get so many points per level (think like Eidolon Evolutions). And when you'd normally gain aspects (these would represent specializations of form within the animal kingdom) it adds a new category with features common to that animal type; like one could be Avian: Wings (for flight), Hollow Bones (reduce falling damage), etc.; Arachnid: Climb, Web, extra limbs, etc.; so on and so forth with different animal (or other category of creature type).

This is what Chimeric form does; adds these aspect features to your animal form adding up to your pool and become a hybrid or amalgam of different creatures. Could be a pool like eidolon, or a pool like a magus'.


Roivan wrote:
As for you saying you can stay in it all day. With an 18 Wisdom (+4), and +6 headband (+3) that is +7 hours; you'd have to be level 17 (or 11 if you didn't want to stay in form while sleeping 8 hours; which personally I'd rather stay in animal form especially if it gets a perception bonus) to stay in wild shape all day with those stats. Where as by 17th level as it is in the actual book; you'd have 7 uses per day each of those 17 hours. By the time you're 8th level normally you could be in Wild Shape all day; even if only 3 uses (or 4 with a druid vestament).

9+7=16; 24-8=16

So my calculations are correct, for not sleeping in shape. Also the only shapes that are getting a bonus to Perception are: Corgi (for the hearing bonus), Falcon(but that's perception), and a bunch of others get Scent(but I'm not gonna count on my sense of smell when I'm sleeping). So I don't really see a bonus to your perception when you're sleeping by staying in form, unless you're gonna wild shape into a Corgi every night before bed, if you even take Corgi.

And again I counter your preference for Multihour wild shapes, with my being able to change between forms far more often.

As for the whole item problem, yeah I can see the problem and your point there.

Also I LOVE your idea for the Aspects, that makes tons of sense, could still work your Wild Shape off of the Aspects, but gives you Far more diversity in form! I honestly LOVE it. Though I honestly think the Evolution points should be a Separate ability that can work on you BECOMING the Chimera, an animal of Disparate parts..... Maybe make it so that certain Aspects can take certain Evolutions baseline, and when you get Chimeric, Greater Chimeric, and Final Aspect, you can combine a certain amount of evolutions from your choice of another aspect(then 3, then 5) can take, and add them to your beast. This is An AWESOME Idea!!!

Another idea I was thinking of, was that when you're in your Major Form, maybe allow your Minor Form to be constantly active during the duration without using time from your Minor Aspect.


graystone wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Yes, it is a BIG leap to say an archetype having a drawback to be overcome is the same as being intentionally made bad.
Can't talk, climb, hold items, ect for 23 hours/day... Yeah, that intentionally bad. If you insist it isn't, I assume you're being intentionally obtuse. :P it goes WAY, WAY, WAY past 'normal' drawbacks. Divine curses of oracles don't do anything close: same with druid. monk, paladin, ect restrictions. Restricting all non-combat activity for most of your day is outside the pale...

Sir, I must contest you are ignoring readily-available resources. Most races without Darkvision handle dark areas with a simple torch, and for merely half a gold's investment most of your adventuring day can be entirely within the pail.

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

...if you're an oozemorph and are in a pail, is the pail considered armor? Would it have to be wooden as a result? What if there's a hole in the bucket...?


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Totally should count as being in full plate (including nonproficiency penalties). Ooze's should also be proficient in the use of all Improvised Armir (buckets, boxes... etc. But that would be sensible, and this is Pathfinder.


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Wei Ji the Learner wrote:


...if you're an oozemorph and are in a pail, is the pail considered armor?

Not unless you count a wagon to be armor, too. You'll get a cover bonus to AC, not armor, so it doesn't count. Until the next FAQ fixing that loophole.

Wei Ji the Learner wrote:
What if there's a hole in the bucket...?

Well, fix it, dear Wei Ji, dear Wei Ji, dear Wei Ji,

Well, fix it, dear Wei Ji, dear Wei Ji, fix it.

Dark Archive

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I'm not PDT, dear Shaven, dear Shaven
I'm not PDT, dear Shaven, DT...


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Wei Ji the Learner wrote:


...if you're an oozemorph and are in a pail, is the pail considered armor? Would it have to be wooden as a result? What if there's a hole in the bucket...?

That's a good question. Where an exact answer isn't written, one should seek out the closest similarity in the core rules. Here's what I found:

Core Rulebook wrote:
Improved Cover: In some cases, such as attacking a target hiding behind an arrowslit, cover may provide a greater bonus to AC and Reflex saves. In such situations, the normal cover bonuses to AC and Reflex saves can be doubled (to +8 and +4, respectively). A creature with this improved cover effectively gains improved evasion against any attack to which the Reflex save bonus applies. Furthermore, improved cover provides a +10 bonus on Stealth checks.

An arrowslit seems the closest reference for a hole in a bucket. The +8 AC, +4 to reflex saves and improved evasion should offer survivability.

I don't see why everyone is so down on this archetype. You get to be a living mobile fortress braving and overcoming much bigger dungeons. I do apologise for the inability to magically enhance your bucket, but this is just 1 archetype and more support will be released in time.

Dark Archive

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I'm suddenly thinking of encounters with oozes with an oozemorph in the party.

"Blrbl blb bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbblbbbbbbbbbbb"

Oozespeak translation:

"It's so sad, they've lost their cohesion and they aren't listening to me. You're going to have to put them down... be gentle, okay?"


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Thanks to the errata you don't need the bucket anymore. You get whatever land speed your race had in it's basic form. However you would need to be a small race to even use the bucket effectively if I'm looking at Compression right. (5 levels into the class and I've still never used this ability.) Otherwise it just ain't fun to fear the DM's damage rolls.


Artificial 20 wrote:
races without Darkvision handle dark areas with a simple torch

LOL If only an oozemorph could HOLD a torch...

GodsBlister wrote:
you would need to be a small race to even use the bucket effectively if I'm looking at Compression right.

Your best bet is an armored backpack [or an open bag of holding].


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Can Oozemorphs use skills while in blobform? One can generate weapons from its bodies, but it doesn't say anything about dextrous hands or something. The only thing it retains is its base senses, so it should be able to use passive skills like Sense Motive and Perception, but stuff like Intimidate is doubtful and Diplomacy or any of the physical skills are completely unusable.


Alchemaic wrote:
Can Oozemorphs use skills while in blobform?

Depends... Does the skill require any tools or communication? If so, unlikely. Passives like Sense Motive, Perception and Know skills? Maybe, but is it going to matter when you can't let anyone know what you figured out? Acrobatics, swim and climb? Questionable too. It doesn't have to hands to climb and can a legless creature run for a running jump?

Pretty much you're a skill-less puddle... :P


I feel like I would allow Disable Device in ooze-form. If you can manifest a sword out of your ooze, you can probably manifest a lockpick too. Stealth, Climb (redundant), Swim, and Escape Artist (should you need to roll this? How does one tie up an ooze?) should all be okay. Acrobatics should be either a "no" or a "you can just do this" depending on what it is- an ooze can't jump but also won't lose footing on a slippery surface. I would allow an acrobatics roll to avoid provoking to represent just flowing out of the way of any attacks.

Problem with most skills is that the oozemorph can't really do anything that involves communicating. So even if you can identify the monster with a knowledge roll, you can't tell anybody.


I think my question is: what is an oozemorph to do if it falls in a 10' pit after it's used it's "assume a humanoid form" for the day other than wait for the next day or someone to come down and scoop it up? It has no 'hands' to find handholds to try to climb, it can't 'hold' a rope/ladder...

EDIT: I meant to add 'at levels 1-3, before it gets climb speed'.

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